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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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 engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 13:10
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just another thought in the continuing saga of my underperforming engine...
since installing the extractors, engine bay temps have gone utterly through the roof. i shit you not when i say the bonnet is baking hot, and the intake piping is totally untouchable for minutes after shutdown. the extractors cool quite quickly, which suggests that they also get extreemly hot very quickly (witness engine fire exhibit A)
without a cold air intake at the moment, i dare say intake temps would also be enourmous. im guessing that woeful performance might be attribuatble to this to some degree 
does anyone have any hard data etc regarding increases in air temp, and consequent performance decreases?
im thinking this could go someway to explaining my missing +40rwhp...
ceramic coating is one option, but i think heat wrap on the manifold and intake pipes is a must at this point. maybe even some sexy pirtek silver spiral insulating tube...
CAI, hood vent etc to come...
cheers
ed
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Registered:
March 2003
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 13:43
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My intake piping and manifold are too hot to touch after a short drive also. I don't have a sealed box over my pod filter, but I do have a cold air feed (I'm not sure if it's working yet, until i get my airtemp sensor on my microtech).
I'm yet to put my large FMIC on, I hope this would quell the heat a bit.
Otherwise I'm not to sure what to do either. There is a heatshield that comes standard over the 1JZ turbo's so I wouldn't know what else I could do about the heat that would make a difference. Bonnet vents maybe... (but that would take the stock look idea away.).
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 13:52
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You should make a decent heat shield for the extractors, car companies do it for a reason 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 14:12
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yeah, the heat shield is to come, but these extractors radiate/conduct a massively larger amount of heat than the sttock 10mm thick cast manifold...
theyre only very thin walled, and i wouldnt be surpried if they glowed red hot on a hard run... and the pickup for the intake is just in front of all this, and runs directly over it...
ive been reading figures of 1% decrease in rwhp for every 10deg F increase in intake temp.
now assuming i have had an intake temp increase of ~80deg Celsius, that would be 144deg Fahrenheit, equating to (supposedly) a 14.4% decrease in power. lets assume she should be 190rwhp, less 14.4%, thats gives us an estimated 162rwhp... which is kinda close to the 150's that ive been recording.
to fully account for the hp loss though :: 21% = 210deg F increase = 116deg C ...which id think is a little unlikely...
add that to the list of ecu woes, and maybe im getting close....
any thoughts?
cheers
ed
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 14:26
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yeah... i would be working at 2 points i suspect. 1 - not having a CAI - the intake air would be bloody hot already, then 2 - considering how damn hot the intake piping gets (and its proximity to the primary header tubes ~2") i dare say the air is getting totally roasted. not sure exactly how much tho...
heat shield, yessir, and i think some intake insuating and CAI is definitely in order
it is SO much hotter in there than stock, id be suprised if it wasnt contributing to some hp loss
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Fri, 26 December 2003 21:49
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 00:10 |
just another thought in the continuing saga of my underperforming engine...
without a cold air intake at the moment, i dare say intake temps would also be enourmous. im guessing that woeful performance might be attribuatble to this to some degree
im thinking this could go someway to explaining my missing +40rwhp...
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No, I'm not so convinced. Your power was there before, with the extractors. You did fit a filter in the interim - check that.
I would continue to chase an electrical problem (particularly given that you have a horde of error codes. Dave and I both noticed it was running quite rich on Sunday and Monday, especially when you were giving it some.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 09:55
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dave - sorry if i confused you... i have NO evidence of the engine making power with the extractors. all g-tech runs were done before mods, and then again at present.
i should reinforce the fact that the intake piping is hot enough to instantly boil a lugi after a hard run. ive installed a makeshift heatshild today, and that's made a massive difference already, but i think a bonnet vent will be in order.
i think the intake temp is a real issue (tho not the only issues). before mods, the numbers were gained with stock airbox etc, and this was drawing in kind-of ambient air... currently the bay is massively heat soaked, id love to see the temp if i had a working probe.
anyways - ive sortid ecu errors (bar the speed sensor - which is to be expected), and im some ways to sorting out heat issues. next is putting together some kind of air box and CAI.
this evenings g-tech run was popping out numbers like 165rwhp which is a significant improvement over the 145 id been getting. the richness seesm to have gone (TPS?) and she revs out much much much faster & harder than before 
exactly which thing i did today resulted in the gains, im not sure, but everything is additive. i think further focus on the induction temps now will be useful.
much more to go to get my golden 200rwhp... but were getting there... (make that about 185 on the gtech allowing for wind drag)
20 more hp...hmmmmm
cheers
ed
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 10:25
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just a quote i pulled regarding hp 'loss' with increasing drag. thus giving a basis for real rwhp, and g-tech'd rwhp...
"A modern car (drag coefficient 0.34) with a 110 kW (150 HP) engine will be using about 4.6 kW (6 HP) of power to overcome air drag and 11 kW (14 HP) for mechanical propulsion (rolling resistance etc.) when it is being driven at a constant 80 km/h (22.2 m/s, 49 mph). When driving at its top speed of 210 km/h (58 m/s, 128 mph) it will be using 82 kW (112 HP) to overcome drag and the remaining 28 kW (38 HP) to overcome rolling resistance etc."
i do my g-tech power run right through to redline in 3rd (about 156kmh). if one assumes that the peak rwhp is infact recroded in 3rd gear around redline, (which is close to double the 80kmh speed quoted above), squaring the drag losses to yield 36hp could be a reasonable estimate. hmmm...
bring on dyno day! im sick of maths!
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 11:42
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I am eagerly awaiting dyno day
In regards to intake mods, i pulled the coolant lines from my throttle body yesterday and that made a noticeable power difference, obviously expoentially so as the ambient temperature decreases (and the TB isnt @ 80 degrees when its 15 degrees out!)
But i read you have already done this mod.
So you need a cold air intake, no need to worry about the ram effects that much, as people have proven no positive pressure until speeds of over 120kmh, however if its a track car it may be beneficial.
I was looking at making a fibreglass airbox/heatsheild and sealing it against the bonnet, with a CAI and a hard intake pipe, which would need to be HPC coated.
Also considering HPC coating the TB
IF you come up with a custom airbox type idea, i would love to hear it.
I need something for dyno day 
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 11:47
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| BlackSupra wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:12 |
In regards to intake mods, i pulled the coolant lines from my throttle body yesterday and that made a noticeable power difference, obviously expoentially so as the ambient temperature decreases (and the TB isnt @ 80 degrees when its 15 degrees out!)
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You have to be careful when doing this...
The TB is heated to stop the throttle plate getting frozen in position in cold weather.
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 12:08
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| M.W.P. wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:47 |
| BlackSupra wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:12 |
In regards to intake mods, i pulled the coolant lines from my throttle body yesterday and that made a noticeable power difference, obviously expoentially so as the ambient temperature decreases (and the TB isnt @ 80 degrees when its 15 degrees out!)
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You have to be careful when doing this...
The TB is heated to stop the throttle plate getting frozen in position in cold weather.
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I can't say i can recall a time when the temperature in sydney was cold enough to stick the throttle. 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 12:24
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well, i just semi proved my theory...
i was out doing a few g-tech runs tonight: first run happily put away 165rwhp, then i did a few 1/4's and 0-60mph, then another horsepower run.
low and behold, with engine baking with heat following the numerous runs, the second power run pulled a measly 151rwhp.
i wish i had some temp data to back this up... but the correlation is pretty convincing. (at least i cant point to any other reasonable cause...)
glen, im actually thinking of running some 80mm pipe through the panel under the headlight, and mounting the airfilter outside the engine bay behind the front skirt... solves all the "how to make a box" problems.
i was then just thinking of heat wraping the rest of the intake piping. HPC is one thing, thick layers of insulation is another
cheers
ed
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
The Eastwood MASSIVE !
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 13:04
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tsk tsk gtech runs with double demirits
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sat, 27 December 2003 15:27
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yeah, you bad boy!
spent and hour in the car with my brother telling him how, nuts as I am, I'm Mr Grandpa on double demerits, and here you are being silly.
you need a scolding young man! 
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 07:39
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 23:24 |
well,
glen, im actually thinking of running some 80mm pipe through the panel under the headlight, and mounting the airfilter outside the engine bay behind the front skirt... solves all the "how to make a box" problems.
i was then just thinking of heat wraping the rest of the intake piping. HPC is one thing, thick layers of insulation is another
cheers
ed
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What i was thinking is that by increasing your intake pipe length, will this decrease throttle response?
The idea im having is a 90 degree bend of PVC pipe from the drivers fender into the wheel arch.
The question i ask is how much are you willing to pay for your intake 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 08:06
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glen, i think if you have large and restrictionless (or as close as) piping, pre throttle body, its shouldnt affect youre throttle response too much.
i pulled arart my front rh corner today, and ducting some pipe to behind the front skirt is a piece of piss. for access, simplicity, and continuous fresh clean cold air, i think ill be going here. i just ahve to wait for the exhaust shop to reopen so i can get my piping!
cheers
ed
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 09:51
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So your going to run 3in pipe all the way from TB to fender or are you going to have 3in, blended doen to 2.5in in the fender?
Stock 2J piping appears to be 3inches.
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 10:05
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| BlackSupra wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:38 |
| M.W.P. wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:47 |
| BlackSupra wrote on Sat, 27 December 2003 22:12 |
In regards to intake mods, i pulled the coolant lines from my throttle body yesterday and that made a noticeable power difference, obviously expoentially so as the ambient temperature decreases (and the TB isnt @ 80 degrees when its 15 degrees out!)
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You have to be careful when doing this...
The TB is heated to stop the throttle plate getting frozen in position in cold weather.
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I can't say i can recall a time when the temperature in sydney was cold enough to stick the throttle.
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You dont have to be in freezing weather for it to freeze up.
The vaccuum through the throttle body can cause it to cool down a lot.
A good example of this is drag cars where they spray alcohol onto the throttle plates to stop them freezing open.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 10:20
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My throttle body could cook an egg on a good day. 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 10:24
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| BlackSupra wrote on Sun, 28 December 2003 20:51 |
So your going to run 3in pipe all the way from TB to fender or are you going to have 3in, blended doen to 2.5in in the fender?
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yep, im running 80mm (just over 3") all the way from t/b to filter. all the pipe is nice mandrel bent aluminised truck exhaust, with some 80mm truck coolant pipe connectors...
on a side note, i bought a 50m roll of glass reinforced aluminium tape today ($19 from bunnings) that stuff is the shit!
cheers
ed
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 10:31
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How thick is the tape and how well do you think it will work?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Sun, 28 December 2003 10:49
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its not 'that' thick, but is reflective as all hell. i wrapped about 4 layers on, and on quick inspection is much cooler to the touch - but i have no hard data on actual intake temps 
i think with 4 layers, whilst not offereing a thick conductive barrier, does offer ample radiant protection. i did also buy some foam in which to wrap the intake, before taping it, but it looked goofy as all shit, so i took it off hopefully the CAI and an exhaust hood vent will help significantly
cheers
ed
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Mon, 29 December 2003 13:55
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Sun, 28 December 2003 00:01 |
btw:
tonights best g-tech stats:
0-60mph in 6.99secs
15.3sec @ 93.85mph
165rwhp
edit: 
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Sorry to Hijack the Thread but what did the old car pull (5M-E)?
Those figures still looks impressive considering it is not boosted...
Cheers.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Mon, 29 December 2003 15:35
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Just wrap the headers and be done with it
Allan
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Location:
Launceston, Tasmania
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Tue, 30 December 2003 01:16
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Hey guys re:the CAI, just a word of warning about trying to pick up cold air from wheel wells and front aprons, it will only take a small mouthfull of water to hydraulic your engine and it's happened heaps of time. This is the only reason I haven't done this with mine, because you never know when you're going to get caught in a big down pour and drive into that big pot hole. Remember Todd Wilkes(R.I.P)Horsepower Hero guy well that's exactly what happened to him with the first mega buck engine he put in that ute and it happened just as mentioned above. I'm not trying to be a killjoy I'd just hate to see anyone, especially you Ed after so much work hydraulic their engine.
Rich
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Tue, 30 December 2003 07:25
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I know the risks, had a CAI on both previous cars.
But its so worth it!!
You would have to drive through a ford to do real damage.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Tue, 30 December 2003 08:10
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I have almost finished my airbox template for the fibreglass
Ill take a pic of that when its done.
BTW: where is the engine check light in an MA61?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Tue, 30 December 2003 08:15
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btw: there isnt one
im mounting an LED in my new dash to act as one tho...
who do you know that can fiberglass?
if i make a template of a box for mine, reckon he/they/she can do it too?
cheers
ed
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: engine bay and intake temperatures...
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Tue, 30 December 2003 10:48
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Tue, 30 December 2003 19:15 |
btw: there isnt one
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Yeah swear i looked but couldnt find one when doing the install
Should really do that.
| ed_ma61 wrote on Tue, 30 December 2003 19:15 |
who do you know that can fiberglass?
if i make a template of a box for mine, reckon he/they/she can do it too?
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My dad used to make surfboards....is there anything he cant do / hasn't done??
Im sure if my template is good enough we could use it to make multiple boxes. I beleive this is the best possible design given the space, it won't be perfect, but im no engineer, i just want a sealed feed of air.
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