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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Good for a laugh
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Wed, 31 July 2002 23:49
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Quoting
http://www.nissansilvia.co.nz/tech/Mods.htm
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Intercooler
Most people will automatically say that an intercooler upgrade is only for a turboed car, this is not however completely true. People have seen increases in performance by piping an intercooler straight into the throttle body of an N/A. Now I'm not saying that this is the way to go as I haven't seen the proof, but it sounds valid.
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Even "most people" seem to know more about intercoolers than this guy.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 02:58
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I wish that guy would just have a think about it....
It doesn't work. There is some very solid physics behind it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 06:01
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You know this idea is not as silly as it may sound at first, its something Ive thought of before myself. Of course the set up is not as easy as just plumbing it like a turbo but my theory is this. Bear in mind that this application would only be for short stints and special situations like drags on a hot day or 5- 10 laps of a track at the max.
you would need a water to air intercooler that has a compartment to place ice inside that can melt and drain to the water for the intercooler. The intial water you put in should be from a chilled source, e.g thermos of cold water from fridge or freezer.
the intercooler will need the shortest possible plumbing to the manifold and a large funnel ram type intake to take advantage of speed forced induction from the front of the car. The intercooler does not necessarily need to be in the front of the car with the air going straight on it, you could set up a second duct to the front of the intercoller from the front of the car , this way you can mount it much closer to the intake manifold.
Probhably a modified truck intercooler core would work best with the larger cores allowing easier flow with possibly less friction? obviously it wouldnt want to be very big in size but thats where the water to air system would be better anyway.
feel free to tear my unproven/tested theory apart 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:10
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I think its a very good theory of course just a normal intercooler wont do anything as the coolest it can cool the air is to the temp of the outside air anyway so on a N/A car an intercooler has no purpose but if you could fill the intercooler with anything thats below the outside air temperature the your going to have a power gain, perhaps even connect it up to say the air con in the car and have refridgerent running through the intercooler that would get the air nice and cold.
I think some people just simply forget to think outside the square.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:28
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You would need an intercooler that would be capable of cooling below ambient, probably the best for this would be a water/air cooler i'd imagine.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 07:58
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dont mean to be nit picky but im pretty sure that when you compress air its gets colder
correct me if im wrong
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 08:03
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When you release compressed gas into a low pressure region it gets colder.
like through a nozzle.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 10:20
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Universal gas equation states that PV=nRT
n and R are constants for this application, and P is pressure, V is volume, T is temperature.
This means that for the same volume of air, increasing the pressure leads to increased temperature (ie inside turbocharger air gets hotter).
>>When you release compressed gas into a low pressure region it gets colder.
Reduce the pressure (same volume) and temperature goes down.
GIN51E and TOYO3T you are both right, just talking about different applications!
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 11:08
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| bored wrote on Thu, 01 August 2002 9:49 AM |
Quoting
http://www.nissansilvia.co.nz/tech/Mods.htm
...
Intercooler
Most people will automatically say that an intercooler upgrade is only for a turboed car, this is not however completely true. People have seen increases in performance by piping an intercooler straight into the throttle body of an N/A. Now I'm not saying that this is the way to go as I haven't seen the proof, but it sounds valid.
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Even "most people" seem to know more about intercoolers than this guy.
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Even I know more (now) then that. /me remembers my thread from 2 months ago..... Thanks SXer.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 12:13
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actually,
a VERY simple way for this to work would be if you used a water srayer on the outside of the intercooler surface. as the water evaporates, it draws heat energy away from the intercoller core, significantly cooling the intake charge BELOW environmental temperatures. it would work even better if you sprayed say metho, or even isopropyl alcohol on it, that would really chill the air.
but could you honestly be bothered??
cheers
ed
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 12:31
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And then that air that is cooler than ambient would be more dense in water vapour.... So yea, who could be stuffed introducing water to your intake.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 22:25
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Yes - I agree there are ways to cool intake air below ambient. Yes - I agree that increasing the density of intake air is a beneficial thing.
BUT
Its not going to happen putting a regular intercooler on an NA car which is what the guy on the web page was suggesting. I'm all for "thinking outside the square" but that doesn't mean I shouldn't point out where people believe in falacies that break fundamental rules of physics.
Given all the added complexity, weight and restriction that any additional set-up over a simple CAI would bring I don't think that it would be worthwhile.
By all means - go ahead and try though. Be sure to post results though... 
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Location:
Brisbane - Chapel Hill
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 22:26
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hmmm, on a V8 or large V6 the aircon takes what ... 1% of your power? ... so why not aircondition the intake manifold ... At least give it a noce cool air wrap ... for some cold air induction
Aircon can certainly cool well below ambient ...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 22:41
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and you would get more power back by doing that than you would loose through using the aircon pump.
does anyone know if there is rules against this in v8 supercars? if not then why don't they use it.
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Location:
A.C.T
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 23:21
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Sorry to wreck all your fun guys, but a guy i know was constantly bugging us about his ideas on this topic and we told him to stop annoying us and just do it. Put simply, it didnt work. He did everything you guys have mentioned here (except the air-con bit) and the intercooler just proved to be too restrictive. The car just wouldn't start because it was choking on itself. We decided to take it to a track and try to pull-start it hopeing that the forced air speed would help, and it did start but it needed to be pulled to 60km/h! Once it did start it ran extremely rough and if he backed off to less than half throttle, it would stall. Unless you can gat an extremely efficient intercooler, i think there will be very little chance of getting this to work effectively. However a different setup to what he had would maybe render this idea viable. He also had a chopped-down truck intercooler which certainly wouldn't have helped. Most people think cut-down truck cores are more efficient than car cores, not so! Anyway, i will be glad to give anyone any information on what he did if you really want to try this.
Andre
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 23:25
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how about using an oil cooler are the restrictive or less restrictive becase they are intended for thick oil to pass through.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Thu, 01 August 2002 23:36
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Andre,
Hmm I would have thought that a truck interccoler would have been better not necessarily for higher flow but as I mentioned before the larger core size produces less friction surface than a smaller one would (less contact area), could you send me a detailed description of your friends system i am really interested to see how he set it up?. I guessing that he mounted the intercooler in front of the car as opposed to just in front of the intake T/B and thats why he had so much restriction of air flow...to make this work you need to have no bends in the pipework at all from the entry of the intercooler to the plenum.
please send the details to... IRA11Y@hotmail.com
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Location:
A.C.T
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Fri, 02 August 2002 00:03
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Yeah i'll try to draw it up for you then i'll email it to you. Yes he did mount the core at the front, but it was a V6 VR commodore and the pipe leaving the intercooler was pretty much a completely strait line to the original pipe where the airbox was connected. If you know your commodores then you will know that in V6 VS's if you disconnect the airbox from the rest of the system then you just have a black pipe that faces striaght forward, then when it goes back it has to turn a 90 degree bend into the throttle body. So yes, his intake wasn't the most free flowing, but it wasn't too bad either. Also the V6 had a bit of work done, so it was capable of sucking quite a strong amount. He also had a K&N stuckstraight onto the 'cooler and it was in a box that got smaller as it got to the filter and it had a big opening that hung out the front where the bumper usually goes. It's hard to explain, i'll draw a pic.
André
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Fri, 02 August 2002 00:10
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You've gotta love this quote from the same page further down:
"There are a lot of option as far as blow-off valves go, the main reason behind this is the popularity of them.. Lets face it, any one with a turbo'ed car will probably have a blow-off valve, Why ? Because they sound cool.."
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Location:
A.C.T
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Fri, 02 August 2002 00:17
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haha, i hate the sound they make! They make your car sound like an Action bus! I'd much prefer a big 'cooler, larg air filter, and an external wastegate that dumps onto the ground!
BTW, that little Honda signature in michael's posts is hectic!
André
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Fri, 02 August 2002 08:32
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Ok, to anyone with even a little understanding of thermodynamics and fluid flow, this idea is a complete joke. Fortunately, there are some sane Toymods members who have explained why, yet some people persist in their foolishness. Hence I will re-cap why this is one of the most moronic ideas ever.
Intercoolers can only cool the air down to ambient temperature. (okay, I know you can run a water-to-air cooler with ice, or liquid nitrogen or whatever, but that is a separate issue, as such devices can only cool for a short period of time, until their thermal reservoir becomes saturated)
Since a normal intercooler can only cool to ambient temperature, it CANNOT REDUCE THE TEMPERATURE OF INCOMING AIR unless that incoming air is at higher than ambient temperature. If it is not exceedingly clear at this point, any car with a decent cold air intake system will have it's intake air very close to ambient temperature. Hence an intercooler will be unable to provide any benefit on a naturally aspirated car.
Moreover, as already mentioned, the intercooler would present a flow restriction to the air intake, which would have the effect or REDUCING POWER.
-- /end seriousness --
So, if you are a serious rice boy, I highly recommend the installation of a large aftermarket intercooler in the front of your car, and please, don't forget to add a blow-off valve, and since your car is NA, why don't you buy a plumback one, and hook it up with the normal outlet onto the plenum chamber after the throttle body. This will give you that wonderful pssst sound you're after whenever you lift off the throttle. Due to the increased power this will generate, your car will take much longer to low down from high rpm, and in some cases, your rpms might even rise (!!!) after you let off the throttle. This is a sign of a TRULY POWERFUL naturally aspirated engine.
On MAF equipped cars, we recommend "venting" your blow-off valve directly to the atmosphere. This will prevent your car from wasting fuel at idle, and will increase the loudness of your blow-off valve. Your car will turn heads at every gear change.
While you're at it, why don't you get one of those wonderful electronic superchargers known as "turbo zet"'s?! If you install one of these, and a "Bleed valve", they are capable of producing up to 30psi of boost ELECTRONICALLY!
Turbo Zet: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~racer/
I can't wait to do all this stuff to my pride and joy... if I can ever afford it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Fri, 02 August 2002 12:16
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| bored wrote on Fri, 02 August 2002 6:32 PM |
Intercoolers can only cool the air down to ambient temperature. (okay, I know you can run a water-to-air cooler with ice, or liquid nitrogen or whatever, but that is a separate issue, as such devices can only cool for a short period of time, until their thermal reservoir becomes saturated)
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Yeah I think thats what I allready said
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Moreover, as already mentioned, the intercooler would present a flow restriction to the air intake, which would have the effect or REDUCING POWER.
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yeah I think I covered that too
If you really think about it small gains can be achieved that in a race situation may be beneficial...I did say I only thought about it...notice Ive never put it in to practice, the theory says it works, but in reality Im not stupid enough to deny its more hassle than benefit
Im just saying you can think inside the square all you want....thinking outside it wins races
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 00:47
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I specifically said that the things I was saying had already been mentioned. I was just reinforcing what had already been said, in case I also said that I was specifically referring to common intercoolers as used on turbo cars, which, for the umpteenth time, can only reduce inlet temperatures to ambient temperature.
So what are you bitching about?
If you get offended when I'm paying out rice boys, then maybe you're the rice boy, and you should find some other rice boys to hang out with.
I also addressed the ice / dry ice / liquid nitrogen idea, and did not dismiss it. This is already commonly in use by drag racers anyway, and is well known. Just don't expect to use it for more than short periods, like in street / race applications.
I didn't mention water injection, which is capable of cooling the inlet to below ambient, nor did I mention NOS, which is commonly understood to reduce inlet temperatures.
As for the aircon idea, there are a few problems with that. The first problem would be the efficiency of your system. Unless your system increases the engines power by more than the power it consumes (which is very unlikely), it will result in a drop in power. The second problem is that in order to make any reasonable gains, you would need to reduce inlet temperatures considerably. This would involve moving _lots_ of heat energy, which is going to require a large system, and also require a lot of energy to run.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 06:06
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i dont think any of you guys understand whats being said here so let me re-iterate................    
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 07:25
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Bored there are also other ways to perform cooling rather then using the air con off the motor, look at those little portable fridges or the really old home fridges which run off gas, how is this done? by heating up the refridgerent to turn it into a gas then as it moves away from the heat sorce it turns back into the high compressed liquid which turns it cold again. now how about running this off the exhaust system to supply the heat to start the whole process off this will then be taking no power out of the engine to run yet providing cooling to the incoming air, only downside is you have to wait till everything warms up at first but once everything is all hot then it would be great.
try going into your local camping shop look at a portable fridge that runs on LPG and see how it works.
as we have one, it only takes a flame as big as a cigerette lighter to cool the inside of the fridge to below 0'C in fact i'll run this idea past my brother when he gets home to see what he says as he is a qualified in Air condition and refridgeration
(with out people who have crazy idea's we wouldn't have your beloved cars or plains to go around in today)
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 08:50
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Now this idea is not so crazy, as it works off the waste (heat) energy of the car.
I imagine it would still be difficult (note: I'm not saying this is impossible!) to remove enough energy from the intake air to make much of a power difference, however since you are esentially using waste energy to power your system, the efficiency problems of a compressor system would be avoided.
Good luck to anyone who can make this work. I'd love to hear about it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 13:11
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I understand your theory, the problem is that the volume of air your engine consumes at say 6000 rpm is massive, so you would either need to store the air at high perssures, or in a massive container.
As for reducing your engine bay temperatures, I think this is unlikely, as in order to get anything out of your exhaust, you need somewhere for the heat energy to flow to, so your engine bay would be hotter because you'd need another radiator to dissipate the heat from your exhaust. This radiator would need to dissipate not only the heat from your intake air, but also the heat used to power your refrigeration system. This would likely be another big challenge in engineering your system.
(This is getting further away from my field of expertise, but based on my first year uni thermodynamics, this message seems logical - correct me if I'm wrong.)
[Updated on: Sat, 03 August 2002 13:14]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Sat, 03 August 2002 23:32
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i think it entirally depends on how you set it up.
what you need is a very basic engine in a car that has heaps of engine bay room so its easy to get the basics of it set up and test it all out. then once its proven to work then invest the money in doing the work on a more complex high performance motor.
only problem is who has the money to dive into this theory? i have enough problems just affording fuel.
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Location:
Brisbane - Chapel Hill
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Mon, 05 August 2002 01:19
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Do I remember reading that the concorde (or some other jet) cools its manifolds by recirculating its fuel? (or maybe it was something less fun being cooled) However, I'd imagine the fuel is then cooled by virtue of the wing surface area ... so you're fucked in a car fuel tank.
hate to see a backyard job like this on the road tho :/ did I hear a kaboom?!
as for the aircon idea, yup, thats a hole lot of air to cool in bugger-all time. Bit of a bastard that.
Maybe I'll draw the cold air from my already air-con-cooled cabin for a short stint (how rice would that be eh eh eh) "Yeah brudda, my air intakes so trick, I sit in it"
Ok, now im just being silly
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Mon, 05 August 2002 01:51
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I dont think air con idea to cool inlet temps would work, energy is taken out of engine to cool air going into the engine, at best all you could hope for is no net power increase (or maybe some increase if the engine is detonating -proper tuning will solve that one) but due to cooling inneffieceny you would just end up losing power. think about it with the Carnot cycle... I'm not too sure though as I cant claim to understand this 100% but if anyone does and can apply it with logic that would be pretty good
how about bolting up a 2 stroke air compressor to the side of your motor... no turbo lag and no power taken from the motor to run it
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Mon, 05 August 2002 02:22
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Hi RobertoX,
If that was the case, then how does a supercharger work?
rgrds
sam
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 00:26
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Yeah, that did cross my mind... I suppose they are just two ways of increasing the charge density... before a chemical reaction. My train of thought was focused more towards the concept of say blasting the block with the air con to cool it down or something along those lines (ie. a bit off track ).... As I said, understanding is not 100%
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 00:56
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No worries Rob, btw I wasnt having a go at you, it's something I don't really understand either 
rgrds
sam
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 01:19
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Nah, Don't worry sam... its all one big learning process...
Just about the concorde thing, I think the system they use is to heat the fuel up after it has been cooled in the tank by the freezing conditions at the wing by circulating it around the manifold. This also has the added benefit of cooling the manifold.
Where this is going is... how about cooling the fuel tank on the car with the fridge idea? Spraying in 0deg fuel out the injectors may have some sort of benefit? It would also cool down the air that its mixing with. would the benefits outweigh the downfalls... like having a refrigerator in your boot
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 02:50
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i think in Formula One they pump cold fuel into the cars during pit stops so tht means it must have some sort of benifit but of course if a car is tunned to 20'C fuel then if you started using 0'C fuel i think you would have to re tune the engine as the cooler fuel will be a completly different density and so forth may also cause the burn last longer as its not the fuel that burns its the vapor and if its cold then it will take longer to vaporise.
do we have a chemist on this forum? who could answer all this
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 06:06
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It would be easy for them to adapt to colder fuel in F1, the sensor in the tank would read the temp and send a signal to the systems comp which would have pre-programmed fuel rates for every 0.5 degrees I expect
actually Ive seen an aircon system set up and it does work, the problem it faces is that the compressor is at a set output and in high rpm it cant keep up enough flow so you get some ambient air enter and alter the temp and it stuffs everything up, if you have a low rpm high torque engine its great (V but in a GE it wouldnt be beneficial enough
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Location:
A.C.T
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 23:37
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OORRRRRRRR you could just turbocharge your car and be done with this whole intercooled N/A engine idea!
André
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Good for a laugh
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Tue, 06 August 2002 23:54
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Yeah, I think that there is a reason that this stuff hasn't really been done before and that reason is that its just not worth the effort. But its a bit of a laugh discussing it, and this sort of thing is where good ideas come from anyway... and bad/completely ridiculous ones
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