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Location:
Hong Kong
Registered:
November 2003
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engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 04:55
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Hi guys, especially Sifussssssssssssssssssssssssssss
What could have caused the engine to bye bye?
Toyota 4A-GE 4 throttles 20v blacktop head (over hauled) + silvertop block (non over hauled) + blacktop ECU and wiring looms
Bolt on, immediately white smoke. Open, pistons loose???
Before this, the complete engine silvertop was running healthy, smooth, power, trouble free, fast, responsive, no hic cups. Was on silvertop ECU and wiring looms.
feedbacks appreciated!!!!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 04:59
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Have you carried out a compression test ?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 05:05
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got me stumped...?!?
pistons are loose did you say...? how exactly? are they loose on the wrist pins or look loose in the bore? and it hasn't been touched and was running fine before the head swap....?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 05:26
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Is it oil smoke or steam?
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Location:
Hong Kong
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 05:30
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Hi guys, thanks for your help, heres more info
silvertop, transplant every dam thing.
running fine, perfect for 8 months. But a little white smoke. Very little.
then change HEAD to blacktop and change wiring loom and ECU to blacktop, cut allot of wiring to joint sockets for air-cond, dash etc etc.....
running also fine for 2 months, very willing, no problems, but a little white smoke. Very little.
So, overhaul the head and change to metal head gasket.
put the head back, immediately white smoke allot allot...... not yet drive out,,,...........allot allot like smoke generator for disco...
open head, found pistons loose........
What could have gone wrong???
compression check 170 psi only, so open the head and found pistons loose inside the bore can move left ,right, sideways 
[Updated on: Thu, 08 January 2004 05:34]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 06:11
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white smoke -> water
could the replacment head gasket have allowed water into the combustion chamber which then forced its way past the rings, buggering them in the process?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 06:14
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left right sideways by what...half a mm or half an inch? they really shouldn't move at all.
i had a similar prob on my L24 six. the engine was running like shit, so i recond the head and put it back on after diagnosing what seemed like pitted valve seats and valves not seating properly. ran like a dream for 24hours then black smoke. then another 24hours later black and blue smoke. then driving home, silver smoke and running worse than before the head swap. turns out the extra compression from correctly seated valves blew out the already very fragile rings and what was left of them.
your bottom end may have shit itself for some reason - extra compression?
or the metal head gasket...is it copper? you will need to re-torque the head after running it warm and shutting it down - while it's warm. did you apply any kind of sealant, like CAT gasket sealant or the like. always a good idea with metal gaskets. your block isn't machined flat either is it, if it's the original...? this may be contributing.
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Location:
NSW, East Coast
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 07:28
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Have you checked your water level, my bet is there's a leak in your head gasket due your head and/or block not being flat.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Thu, 08 January 2004 13:38
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 got this from this site: http://www.supras.com/~riemer/HKS/hksgaskets.html
Some SONiC members who have had machine work done to their engine when they installed a metal head gasket have experienced problems with combustion gasses leaking past the head gasket into the coolant jackets or oiling system. The marks from the machine tools can leave a pattern of fine grooves, on the engine cylinder head and deck surfaces. This rough textured surface allows the engines high-pressure combustion gasses to fizz through past the metal gasket.
Because this smooth factory finish is very hard to have reproduced by the machine shops around the country several things must be kept in mind when machine work is done to your engineÕs deck and head surfaces.
They usually never admit it, but try as they might, many reputable machine shops have major problems obtaining a smooth enough finish to allow the use of a metal shim gasket. The reason for this is that they simply donÕt have good enough equipment, procedures, or technicians to achieve an acceptable finish to provide a tight seal when using a metal head gasket.
Unless the shop is familiar with doing work of this caliber, they will not understand why you want a better job than what they have done. I have seen machine finishes bad enough to cause sealing problems when using a stock composite gasket!
Because of this area of concern, I would only recommend that the engine block deck only be machined (resurfaced) if there is damage to the deck surface caused by the compression rings of the old head gasket. However, usually you will need to resurface the alloy cylinder head because the compression rings of the stock gasket bite into the alloy surface of the cylinder head.
could be something to do with the metal headgasket you used?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Fri, 09 January 2004 01:58
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that's what i thought.
take your head off, apply a sealant to the gasket (both sides), re-fit your head, bring it up to running temp then shut it down. re-tension your head and you should be okay.....
let us know either way.
good luck 
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Fri, 09 January 2004 03:18
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get a spray tin of that Hylomar stuff.
i pulled apart and rebuilt my 3 peice metal head gasket with it, good gear... 
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Location:
Hong Kong
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Fri, 09 January 2004 06:24
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Hi guys
Oh,................doh..................speechless ........
I really don't know now...............
Will do / investigate whatever I can and report......
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Sat, 10 January 2004 10:41
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how about this for a guestimation......
as above unprepared mating surfaces cause bad seal and therefore blown HG (white smoke), water leaks into piston chamber at XXXXRPM and water semi compresses (ps water dosent compress f$$$ all! ), causing broken rings and ring lands (piston slop), result... time for rebuild.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Sat, 10 January 2004 10:45
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| IRA11Y wrote on Sat, 10 January 2004 20:41 |
<snip> water leaks into piston chamber at XXXXRPM and water semi compresses (ps water dosent compress f$$$ all! ), causing broken rings and ring lands (piston slop), result... <snip rest>
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actually - i think it should read something like:
"engine attempts to compress water, causing broken rings and ring lands and maybe bent gudgen pins and conrods, result..."
tho i think IRA11Y's probably got it in a nutshell... ouch...
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Sat, 10 January 2004 11:01
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pistons do move bit sideways in the block
very minute but they do move
forged pistons move even more
u would have to fuk the piston badly for them to move greatly enough to be a problem
if u go thead of make sur eall pistons come to the top of block
u might have hydraulic locked cylinder and bent a conrod
i have never heard of gudgen pins bending
its usually the conrod
was the metal headgasket a custom one
or was it like a hks 3 plate type
sometimes custom made metal headgaskets are not 100% perfect
white smoke is usually water in combustion chamber
so u recon there is a water leak somewhere
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 01:28
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Here is what was done so far
I got hold of blacktop wiring and ecu and fix into my silvertop 20v everything went smoothly except the aircond part because the silvertop 20v using auto aircond ie you set the aircond to auto and set the air cond temp and it will adjust the aircond speed to match the aircond temp and blacktop doesn’t have this feature so we mixed/mated my silvertop aircond wiring and blacktop engine wiring. At the same time I also manage to get hold of a blacktop head with the throttle bodies fixed both of it to my existing silvertop block along with a trd metal gasket Drove around and got an error code 25 stating that the oxygen sensor system was faulty so I changed it and everything was running fine but at the same time when I rev hard I got lotsa black smoke and some white smoke in between. I also installed a oil catch tank at this time and took the hose that connects from the valve cover that goes to the air filter hose. Now the oil catch tank sits between it (from valve cover/breather hose?? to oil catch tank to air filter hose)
Since the condition of the head was unknown and my mechanic assumed that the blacktop head valve seals were bad so we did a top overhaul but also at the same time I noticed that he ordered the top overhaul set for silvertop instead of blacktop from Toyota. According to him it’s the same for the valve seals and if not mistaken even blacktop manual states that the valve seal was green for intake and gray for exhaust (or vice versa) and it was the same color for the silvertop top overhaul set. I also installed an oil cooler at the same time.
So the head was fully cleaned and overhaul with new valve seals. The head was fixed back to my engine and was driven around for 2 days the outcome this time was even worst lots more white smoke than before and in that 2 days it consumed 1 bottle of engine oil (4 litter).
Opened the head once more and this time with the head out I tried moving the pistons and there was some freeplay I could actually move the piston by pushing it with my fingers. The piston has been removed from the block and we found that the oil ring has jammed/siezed/shrunk into the piston itself and all 4 pistons are the same. I just shook my head in disbelief so will be getting new piston rings to replace the old ones.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 02:08
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still doesn't solve the white smoke issue though.....
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Registered:
January 2004
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 03:08
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| yolk wrote on Tue, 13 January 2004 12:58 |
white smoke is caused by the piston ring (oil ring) that has shrunk/siezed causing oil to flow into the combustion chamber after changing it all is okay.
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sorry yolk, but white smoke is caused by water. if the oil rings where stuffed you would get blue/grey smoke.
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 03:42
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then it should have been grey smoke .. sorry can't tell the difference between white/grey yet   btw it was consuming too much engine oil so it's definately the problem with the piston rings
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 03:58
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looks like you're up for a new bottom end dude...
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 05:43
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I hate being right so often
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Location:
Hong Kong
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 06:26
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Hi guys
thanks for all the answers and pardon my lack of experience with engine internals.
The engine is not mine, so I can't say much because I didn't actually see it.
As for me, I also can't tell the difference between white smoke, or grey or black..... never knew there is a grey color smoke issues until now
Used to tell my mech there is black smoke and he tweaks something and I still say black smoke and he keeps tweaking, until the end he go round back and scold me idiot, that's white smoke haahahahaahha
Anyway, learn a great deal from you guys regarding this issue, didn't know engines could be so...... complicated ...... thanks again.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 06:52
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not complicated at all. 
just glorified air pumps really...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: engine blew after I ........................ ???
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Tue, 13 January 2004 08:37
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| Acoustic wrote on Tue, 13 January 2004 14:26 |
As for me, I also can't tell the difference between white smoke, or grey or black..... never knew there is a grey color smoke issues until now
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Grey/blue oil smoke is a darker shade of white
White coolant smoke is like a bright puffy cloud
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