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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Wed, 18 February 2004 12:11
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Having a little debate with somebody about a 3TGTE put into a TA22.... he is saying that with stock brakes, regardless of blue plate, change of insurance policy, etc the roadworthy is void, and the insurance company will not payout in the event of a crash. I am planning on upgrading one day in the future but have been talking to Anthony Kellam at HMS automotive at capalaba and he seems quite adament that it will all be ok for now?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Wed, 18 February 2004 21:49
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Not quite sure what you mean by a blue plate , but commons sense would tell you that putting an 1800 turbo where a 1600 N/A sat needs some engineering work done.
Leaving the brakes stock is a bit stupid as well.
Are you putting the engine in, or are you about to ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Wed, 18 February 2004 22:26
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well its an increase in capacity over stock, sure it pretty much well bolts up, but, like bbbaachy says, common sense on brakes mate
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Wed, 18 February 2004 22:53
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Yep, you'll definitely need to get it engineered which will almost certainly mean new brakes. No engineering -> no blue plate -> void insurance.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 00:36
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i understand that commonsense says a brake upgrade is necessary, but i need the car back on the road is soon as possible which does not permit the extra time spent in a brake upgrade right now... it is one of my priorities but like i have said it is about driving within the limits of the stock brakes until something can be done about them. In regards to the engineering, anthony will do up a blue plate with the stock brakes... is this dodgy?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 00:44
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Ummmmmm, what do you think ? 
Voluntarily driving a powred up car within the limits of the brakes.  Yeah right.
The overall answer is do you want insurance or not ? QED
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:00
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yes i want insurance, if somebody can give me some information about IDB's brake ugrades as i'm at tafe right now, i will be more than willing to buy them tomorrow as long as the price is right.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:03
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I have seen their setup, but have no idea on price and availabuility, best thing to do is ring them.
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:05
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what did you think about the setup? i saw an ad in a magazine saying upgrades starting from $790... like i said if that is an actual price i would be willing to pay that.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:11
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Why are ppl always wanted brake upgrades with new motors?
AFAIK the speed limit doesnt change when drop in a new motor.
The cars weight doesnt change (well, I'm sure in some cases it would get a bit heavier, in which case upgraded brakes are necessitated)
So why do they want it?
I can see it if you are planning to do track work of any description, but in everyday driving there will be no extra stress of brakes.
In my case I'm actually lightening the weight of my car.
I do plan to upgrade to Greenstuff pads if I decide the car needs to stop quicker, but that will be my choice.
All in all, I can see why they want you to do it, but making it a requirement for engineering is a bit over to top if you ask me.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:13
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exactly my point cruzsida, i'm saying that if i feel the brakes arn't up to it than i will drive within the limits, its not like i'm going to go out and drive twice as fast because i have a faster car.... for now i was thinking just getting new DBA drilled disks and some greenstuff pads aswell?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:44
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This is a very simplified way of looking at it! Sure you have the same weight and the speed limit is the same, but don't try and tell me you won't try the odd high-speed run when you install your high-horsepower engine! And believe me, you DON'T want to attempt a stop from 200km/h with stock TA22 brakes.
You also need to remember that your car will get up to any given speed much faster than it did before, so for example if you're driving on a twisty road you will be carrying more speed into each corner which means more stress on the brakes. I discovered after putting the 2JZ-GTE into my Supra the brakes suddenly felt VERY ordinary, even though they were quite good with the old engine. The car is now lighter AND I upgraded to better pads, but the brakes still aren't good enough!
Remember the basic purpose of your brakes is to dissipate any power generated by your engine as heat. More power = more heat = overstressed brakes. Simple physics!
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:45
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ok... does IDB have a website?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 01:48
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I don't think so. IDB are known to be VERY pricey, so I'd look at other options first. Celica brake upgrades have been discussed in detail here, so do a search and you'll have all the answers.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 02:52
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norbie do you know anything about fitting ra65 brakes to a ta22 strut? there is a set of these for sale that where apparently out of a 3TGTE powered TA22 for $300.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 05:00
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Are we talking about IDB in melbourne? or are they all over australia?
IDB in melbourne offer a brake upgrade with fully machined parts for the TA22. I'm considering getting it within the month.
Your looking around $900 for the twin piston calipers. It uses the corona strut assembly, with (I believe) pugeot discs and hilux calipers. Also included is shocks and springs.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 09:45
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IDB are a Melbourne workshop but I think their reputation preceeds them and as such they cater for interstate orders too.
I think the ~$900 package T APLUS 22 is talking about is ~$860 plus tax, so about $950. Included is
> twin piston front calipers (fully rebuilt);
> 10.5" vented discs;
> Corona strut (modified to suit).
Damper inserts and springs are not included but can be supplied by IDB at additional cost. The brake package is supplied in kit form ready to assemble. With springs and shocks to suit budget around $1200+.
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i understand that commonsense says a brake upgrade is necessary, but i need the car back on the road is soon as possible which does not permit the extra time spent in a brake upgrade right now...
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If you can't take the time to do both now do the brakes now and the motor later dude ~ be responsible. If you're driving about with voided insurance willingly I'm just glad you're doing it somewhere far away from me.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 12:00
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For that price i don't see how it is VERY pricey and seems quite reasonable to me.... as i will be envtually upgrading all suspension i think that i may purchase those from IDB.
As for me driving around with voided insurance.... To clear things up the policy is to be changed and it will all be legit so everyone can stop thinking i'm some physco nut with void insurance that has brakes that won't work 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 12:10
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fuck no. its VERY pricey.
my struts cost me zero
calipers were ~$100
rebuild kits and bearings ect ~$150
rotors and machining : ~$250
new 15/16 master : $135
next : struts and springs. if you used a xt130 strut then budget ~$150, springs about same (bearing in mine reduced suspension travel, xt130 strut is 425mm gland nut to base, ta22 is 400mm). coil overs would fix this, but, more expense again.
prices above are only a guide ok. remember this pls. you will prolly do better in other spots and worse in others.
a set of greenstuff pads on drilled and slotted rotors would *probably* and thats *probably* do in the meantime until you're up for brake upgrade pepsi challenge mate.
my 2c.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
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Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 12:12
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you have to understand that i am a silly dick that cannot distinguish various parts and than assemble to something that looks remotely like brakes 
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 12:17
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then definately read the post i put up.
do yourself a favour and learn and save money mate
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 12:20
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If your car can be legally complied with the new motor and standard brakes, insurance companies should accept that as proof of suitability. If they don't accept the complete setup, ask to see their evidence thats states to the contrary, that the setup is unacceptable for whatever reason they specify - I don't think you'll find any insurance company will go up against an engineer and win - but they will try it?!!!
On the subject of power, brakes and driving a car with both, I too feel the road rules you drive the car under, have not changed, and therefore the force required to stop a car from (for example 60Km/h) will not change, and therefore standard brakes that are legally complied will be fine for STANDARD ROAD DUTIES. Should you feel the need for speed, then and only then should you need to uprate your brakes, which when you think about it, should only be needed for off street duties anyway?!
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Location:
UK at moment
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Thu, 19 February 2004 15:30
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I think you will find that an increase in acceleration (that will occur when you more than double the power output of the motor) will require better brakes to stop the car in the same distance..
my 2c
I had a ta22 with 3tgteu - with 4 wheel discs, and it stopped like nothing else (I even impressed a sports bike riding mate of mine with the braking ability)..
I used the entire front strut assembly from a supra (I cannot remember the model) - it did require custom control arms, and adjustable lower camber pins - however by doing this you will get higher rated suspension in the front as well.. to go with the extra weight of the new motor..
Brakes are not the only thing to consider when you're thinking about upping the power - just as important is the suspension and tyres/wheels - as this will affect the braking capability as well..
Now to contradict myself, I had a st141 wagon with a 1g - with everything else standard - and it sucked! (actually it was quite good for just a drive car, but it sucks to have power oyu can't use!)..
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 05:47
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| torque wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 23:30 |
I think you will find that an increase in acceleration (that will occur when you more than double the power output of the motor) will require better brakes to stop the car in the same distance..
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Not from the same speed dude!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 08:25
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Maybe he means time. The time decrease for acceleration make require braking to be upgraded, reguardless of original capabilities. I'd say it has more to do with equaling the brakes to the date of the engine - but I'm no expert.
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Location:
UK at moment
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 10:54
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I thought momentum would have something to do with it... ?
as well as reaction time - ie: once you are accelerating a whole lot more, your brakes will need to be better to stop you in the same distance, as with more acceleration happening, the distance covered before you start braking will be greater, so you will have less distance to actually stop..
I realise it doesn't make a difference until you start flooring it, but isn't that the idea of putting in a better motor? (for at least part of the time..)
i'm going to look this up ...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 11:57
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momentum = mass X velocity.
compared to the original car the only difference at a given velocty is the extra weight of the newer motor. Therefore if the brake upgrade is based on the extra force needed to slow the car down then it makes sense. But some cars are required to upgrade the brakes simply due to extra power. I feel this is because of legislation, not physics. ie: they've got a more powerful powerplant, he should have the brakes to support the car, given the car this engine was released in would of had much more powerful brakes to complete a safer production package.
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Location:
UK at moment
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 15:09
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"Impulse
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
In classical mechanics, an impulse changes the momentum of an object. An impulse is calculated as the integral of force with respect to duration. "
So would the momentum of the car increase due to that fact that the forward force generated with the new motor is greater?
I'm def not a physicist (sp?!) but I am sure the fact that an object is accelerating harder will make it more difficult to slow down, from the same speed..
IE: if your foot is flat to the floor, on full boost, and you decide you need to stop, it is going to take more braking power to slow the forward force of the vehicle than if you only had half the acceleration happening.. even at the same speed ..
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Fri, 20 February 2004 19:29
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only take longer if you still had the accelerator down.
As soon as you release the power your no longer accelerating (on flat road). Just travellling at velocity. This velocty wil start to drop immediately after all pulling/pushing force is removed. So the car will slow down. Now stopping from any given speed will be the same (negating extra force from bigger engine) as before. ie: once the extra power has been used to get to a given speed (100km/h) the time to brake from that speed will be the same (negating outside forces/extra weight).
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So would the momentum of the car increase due to that fact that the forward force generated with the new motor is greater?
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No, as I said earlier: momemtum = Mass x Velocity
These are not dependent on acceleration at any given point or speed. The momentum will increase over time, but only as a result of the increase in velocity. It is not related to force, the extra force is used to increase Acceleration - this is what will increase the momentum faster.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 04:29
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| CLG wrote on Fri, 20 February 2004 15:47 |
| torque wrote on Thu, 19 February 2004 23:30 |
I think you will find that an increase in acceleration (that will occur when you more than double the power output of the motor) will require better brakes to stop the car in the same distance..
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Not from the same speed dude!
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This is fine if you only ever stop once, but in the real world you use your brakes over and over again. This gets back to my earlier point about going for a blat on a twisty road; with a more powerful engine you will be carrying more average speed into corners than you did before (even if you restrict your maximum speed to the speed limit), AND there will be less time between each application of the brakes. The result is more heatsoak in your brakes, and pissy little solid discs won't be able to dissipate the heat fast enough.
There's no getting around it, a more powerful engine needs more powerful brakes. I would have thought that was common sense though?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 04:47
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Yep, and in offering that explanation, I'd suggest any standard car blatting around a twisty road will also cook it's brakes. Yes I agree it's a suituation that can't be avoided if driven in that fashion, but I also feel it's about driving to your, and aslo the car's limits - do you do the speed limit when it's pouring down rain and you can't see the road clearly ahead?
The fact remains, if the conversion can legally be performed and engineered with the standard brakes, it is a valid modification, the fact someone would want to drive the car past it's limits (and often on the wrong side of the law)is beyond me, however is often seen by all those little white crucifixes and flower arrangements on the side of the road. Even doing the speed limit into a corner can see the driver leaving with a dangerous driving fine or charge for their efforts, and while I agree it would be common sense if you were to modify your vehicle for that application intended, I would also assume more common sense while driving would be more effective. Driving isn't about being a balls out hero, if you want to drive like that, take it to a track and have a good insurance plan.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 08:44
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| CLG wrote on Sun, 22 February 2004 14:47 |
Yes I agree it's a suituation that can't be avoided if driven in that fashion, but I also feel it's about driving to your, and aslo the car's limits - do you do the speed limit when it's pouring down rain and you can't see the road clearly ahead?
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I agree you should always drive to the conditions, and if your brakes are sub-par you should take this into consideration at all times. I know this because my brakes are sub-par (but legal!) and I'm always holding back on a mountain run because I know the brakes can't hack the pace. What I'm trying to say is, why bother upgrading your engine if you have to hold back because the brakes aren't up to the task? Yes I know I'm guilty of doing exactly that, but believe me the brake upgrade is well underway as we speak!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 09:29
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Good points guys, i must admit I didn't think of the increase in speeds available between corners - I'd say thats whats the issue here.
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What I'm trying to say is, why bother upgrading your engine if you have to hold back because the brakes aren't up to the task?
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I think most people know the answer to this - its fun. Its also a good point but I have an engine that can put my car at speeds that the brakes can't handle over long periods of time. And alas I can still feel the power safely, but If I chose to do some mountain runs....well scrap that, I haven't chosen to because I know it won't hold up. I am waiting to do the front brake upgrade - Thats right another Ta22 owner wanting to upgrade his brakes - Supprise, Supprise.
(so look out forum, there will be questions - but don't worry I will use the search function first, I promise.)
FWIW, if the brakes are in 'as new' condition I believe they could safely hold the power of the 3TGTEU. But like has been said already, these brakes weren't designed for the sustainable speeds soon to be available 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 10:13
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As a former owner of 2 TA22's, I don't think the brakes were good enough with the stock 2T, let alone with 50% more power!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 10:26
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C'mon, the TA22 standard brakes are crap. New, old, standard pads or tough pads, whatever. They're crap.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 10:54
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'ye have little faith'
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 11:07
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You need faith to push a TA22 on stock brakes, nothing else but faith will be stopping you!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 13:16
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well, now that you mention it: My car has roughly 5 hard stops per trip, then after that I'm braking soley on my front right wheel. Quite a battle to keep it straight - all who have been in my car know what I mean.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 15:25
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Mental note to self: "Never get into Jacob's car with him at the wheel"
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 22:17
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Dont know what the story is in Aussie, but this is what is needed in NZ for angine upgrades.
Basically they do 5 hard stops in rapid succession and the braking has to maintain a certain level of performance. The scary bit is that many factory standard braking systems fail this test, I expect the TA22 would be one of them.
So, for some cars you can double or triple the horsepower and still easily pass the test. For others you may only have gone from a 2T to a 2TG and yet still need significant brake upgrades.
Personally I wouldn't risk more horsepower on a standard brake system, but then again its not my car and I am safely in another country.
Callum
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 22 February 2004 22:34
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| CLG wrote on Mon, 23 February 2004 02:25 |
Mental note to self: "Never get into Jacob's car with him at the wheel"
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Well if you get in my car with someone else at the wheel - Its stolen or sold. The later isn't an option for quite some time. So if its stolen, I doubt the guy realises the problem with the brakes - and your in more trouble then if you had jumped in with me !
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: 3TGTE in TA22 & Engineering Debate
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Sun, 29 February 2004 00:38
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Physically, you would think that a stock TA22 doing 110km/h will stop, more-or-less, in the same time/distance as a 3T-GTE TA22 with stock brakes doing 110km/h, wouldn't you?
So legally, this would be OK. Nothing has changed.
But, you put modified motors into cars so you can go faster AND MORE OFTEN. It makes sense to upgrade to brakes that can slow you down MORE OFTEN.
If you are going to drive your car like a stocker, your brakes are fine. If you are going to drive it like there's a 3T-GTE in it, then you should buy the modified-RA65-to-suit-TA22-struts I have. Very easy bolt on job.
See http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=30093&start=0&rid=4832&S=f7cc3a887ff ea4e239b4c58a1c0006e0 for more details.
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