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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:30
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I'm about to get a new desktop to replace the old one and I want to connect my laptop to it as a network to share a broadband connection.
What are the options?
can the laptop be connected with out a server or hub?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:34
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you can get a crossover, which is sort of a hub for 2 computers.
BUT to do this, you'll need 2 network cards, one for the network connection, one for the modem connection.
best bet is to get something like my hub -0 a little 4-port hub.
it runs 3 computers and the broadband connection, set me back like $20 or something
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:41
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alternatively, a new network card from Jaycar is only $12.... just need a spare PCI slot on your desktop.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:49
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To cut a long story short. I have a 12 port Hub from my office computer upgrade can I use that?
can I used the standard modem that comes with the broadband package or do I need a network specific modem?
Sorry for the questions but my G/F is about to order a dell and order the broadband so I can't see what I'm getting to work it out but want to get it right the first time.
the laptop has a network card
the Dell that will be ordered has several network cards but I have no idea they appear to be all wireless
Or is there an on board network card on the pentium 4's?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:57
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as far as i know, all the broadband modems appear to the computer as just a normal modem (we have a cable one, not sure about adsl) using win2000 or xp you can share this modem via ICS (internet connection sharing) which basically turns it into a proxy.
if both machines (notebook and desktop) have standard RJ45 netword cards, you can as mensioned above use a crossover cable, but if you intent to later on connect more machines, buy a hub.
ps. i am looking at buying a dell notebook as well, and as far as i know they all have a standard RJ45 10/100 network card built into them, and some have a wireless network card AS WELL as the built in one.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 04:59
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I know the laptop has a standard card but I don't know about the desktop as only wireless cards are an option.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 05:12
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just had a look at the aussie dell site, it appears all the desktops have
| Quote: |
Integrated Intel(R) PRO 10/100 Ethernet
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 05:28
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| ehendrikd wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 16:12 |
just had a look at the aussie dell site, it appears all the desktops have
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Integrated Intel(R) PRO 10/100 Ethernet
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Ok thanks I couldn't find that. 
So I can do one of these:-
Use my old Hub connect the D-Link DSL-500 to that and the desktop and laptop to other hub ports.
or
get a DSL 4 Port Switch/Router and plug and play.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 13:06
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um you'll really need a router to share a broadband modem via a 12port switch to your two (or more) computers.
otherwise one of your insecure PC's has to share it's connection to the other PC's and the PC doing the sharing will need two ethernet ports, one for the mode, the other to go to the switch.
Do not simply hook the modem up to a hub and share from there.
i found it safer to:
get the installer to connect the broadband to the PC via the ethernet port,
when he/she has gone, unplug all their hard work,
plug the modem into a router (get something from ht.com.au or a cheapo computer store),
plug router into switch, plug all computers into the switch,
configure the PCs to DHCP off the router,
configure the router (usually via a web page) to either DHCP off the modem (for optus) or PPPoE with hearbeat (for telstra/foxtel).
why? if your PC doing the sharing dies, so does sharing... PC's are insecure and prone to viruses, worms and users... routers have basic firewall, NAT, filtering built in and on by default...because this works without any need for complex configuration on your workstation(s)...because cable routers are damn cheap these days so you probably won't even need your switch... because you can leave this running 24/7 without risking your security (unless you PC is already infected before doing any of this).
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 21:58
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AFAIK, if a modem is a switch, it'll be a router too.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 22:37
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Yes the Modem is a router and a switch (upgrade on the standard modem)
All sorted thanks guys.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 22:38
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| thechuckster wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 00:06 |
PC's are insecure and prone to viruses, worms
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use a linux proxy 
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 22:46
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lol, or a mac!
Most Secure Server in the world
interestingly from that article, " The study also showed that Linux is currently the most-breached online server OS."
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 22:54
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| ehendrikd wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 09:38 |
use a linux proxy
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Best idea I've heard yet!
| RobST162 wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 09:46 |
lol, or a mac!
Most Secure Server in the world
interestingly from that article, " The study also showed that Linux is currently the most-breached online server OS."
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Umm... That article is like saying that it's more dangerous to drive than to walk near a bee hive.
The shear number of Linux servers out there sorta skews the results somewhat.
By the same token that the article assumes, I would reckon the Commodore 64 would be the most secure server in the world. Anyone ever heard of a C=64 being breached? Didn't think so! Therefore it must be secure.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Wed, 17 March 2004 22:59
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mate I didn't write it 
BUT there is no denying that using open source can create problems in terms of security
unless you know every line of code in the thing
I know for one I have never had a virus and never really used virus software on my mac.. and never had someone come get my through my cable modem (that I know of  )
and I sure do like not having to worry about virusus, no myDoom, no anything! woohoo
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 00:05
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Open Source code gets reviewed by people all over the world so is actually safer. You're just feeding off Micro$haft FUD.
Remember, OS X is based on BSD which is Open Source.
Plus patches for Open Source software come out MUCH quicker than Closed Source (ie: 9 months for one of Micro$haft's patches).
FWIW, if I had to take a guess, I'd say OpenBSD is the most secure server in the world.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 00:25
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Mac OS X from the display layer (Darwin) up is closed I think, but the underlying structure is BSD which is open. When someone attacks a computer, they're not really going to attack the display code. They're going to attack the servers you have running like telnet, ftp, named, etc.
And I bet you that your OS X machine is running open source versions of those servers!
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 00:49
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Hacking Mac OS < X is kinda like my C=64 example. Back in about 99 it was considered the most secure server, 'coz no one actually knew much about them and they were so rare that it wasn't worth learning how to hack them. Doesn't mean they're secure though, plus the single threaded/job switching nature of that OS would SUCK when running servers!
With that link, OS X is a BSD so is only worth 3 points.
I've had a Windoze box for as long as I've had Linux boxes, in that time, I've gotten one virus and the Linux box has been hacked once (back when I was very green to Linux).
The hacking was done by a script kiddie with a *very* smart script which prayed on my lack of applying patches (I didn't know how to back then).
If you're running your BSD box without a firewall, you're a bit nuts, or way too trusting.
[EDIT:
Another thing I might add is that even if the underlying OS is secure, that's only 10% of the story.
It's also all the servers that get run. If you run apache and apache has a vulnerability, running OS X or C=64 won't help you at all. That's how I got hacked.
FWIW, my firewall trapped and logged 471 suspicious packets on Wednesday. You'd be pretty shocked if you saw my logs.
]
[Updated on: Thu, 18 March 2004 00:55]
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 00:55
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| RobST162 wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 09:59 |
BUT there is no denying that using open source can create problems in terms of security
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late last year someone comitted a 2 line linux kernel source code change that looked like a simple programmers error, but in fact was clever way of opening a backdoor to any linux system.
BECAUSE linux is open source, and thousands of programmers deal with the code, this attempt was rectified soon after it was comitted.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 00:56
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well 1 virus and 1 hack is still an infinite percentage more than me or my friends with apples have had. I like my security.
but maybe I am nuts. after all, I use a mac
but how can i resist??
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 01:01
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Are you posting from your Mac?
Let me do a preliminary scan of your box.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 01:03
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any computer os is vunerbale to virus attacks. some more than others.
i agree with nark, you probably should still run a firewall, if all mac osx users trust their os enough not to use a firewall, hackers will exploit this.
mac osx is still an awesome os though  pitty it wont run on any other hardware
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 01:08
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nark, I am sure no matter my answer you will have a look, so feel free
osx has a built in firewall too btw with explicit port naming if you feel like it etc...
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 01:44
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nark.. dude I am NO hacker so I have no idea about your end of things.. but what did you see?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 02:06
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cool
though I guess I am not suprised.
hehe thanks
I need some hacking skills
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:09
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| Nark wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 13:00 |
Ran a quick nmap and here are the results:
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All 1657 scanned ports on <deleted> are: filtered
Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 88.874 seconds
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That means you're clean.
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c'mon, Max... you can do better than that! you're not even trying!!! 
| Nark wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 11:49 |
FWIW, my firewall trapped and logged 471 suspicious packets on Wednesday. You'd be pretty shocked if you saw my logs.
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stop bothering people with the truth!!! obviously these events would miraculously disappear if you were using the correct OS! (whatever that is...) i never realised it was all so simple! and after all the Intrusion Detection wares... i feel like such a fool... 
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:14
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is my poor powerbook going to get raped?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:16
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i've noticed no-one's chimed in with a "well, my PC's firewall is better than all your unix shite" post?
<sorry for such blatant flame bait>
well, i use a 2/hand >4yr old Mac running off-the-shelf OS X for a firewall and print-and-file server for my internal network. Has proved more stabler and faster than my dLink 804 router which needed regular reboots and seemed to do DNS lookups slowly. The mac cost me $110 - cheap for a firewall/router/...
anyway, Lambolica? are you doing the router/firewall/switch thing? or are you going out on a a limb and using your PC for the router/firewall?
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:24
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| Quote: |
anyway, Lambolica? are you doing the router/firewall/switch thing? or are you going out on a a limb and using your PC for the router/firewall?
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Ahem...the router/firewall/switch thing. 
Future expansion for a webserver calls for doing it right the first time.
Linux is somthing I'll be looking into once I get things sorted out here at work (I'm trying to create a network with no idea ) My old job we used to use Unix machines and in the 7 years I worked there my machine locked up once! better than once a day (or More) with a PC 
if reliabilty is anything to go by.........
However I have ignored all post between this and my last one.
Straight over my head.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:25
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| Norminator wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 15:09 |
c'mon, Max... you can do better than that! you're not even trying!!!
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haha Kinda difficult while I'm at work!
Bossman: Max, what are you doing?
Me: Oh, nothing much, just using your corporate equipment to h4x0r someone's Mac.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:30
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| Lambolica wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 15:24 |
Future expansion for a webserver calls for doing it right the first time.
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If you're thinking of setting up a webserver within your LAN at a later date, you're gonna have to make sure the router can do port forwarding.
If not, you're prolly better off just getting the standard modem and setting up a firewall/router machine. You can buy a POS machine and install Linux onto it as a firewall/router.
My router is a P166 with 32MB of RAM and has been steady for years (apart from that one time being hacked but back then I wasn't even running a firewall on it ).
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:31
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| RobST162 wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 15:14 |
is my poor powerbook going to get raped?
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i'm sure someone out there in the ether can organise something for you
but the question of what is more secure is a pointless one... you're only as secure as the next vulnerability makes you.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:36
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I have a POS machine...several actually 
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If you're thinking of setting up a webserver within your LAN at a later date, you're gonna have to make sure the router can do port forwarding.
If not, you're prolly better off just getting the standard modem and setting up a firewall/router machine. You can buy a POS machine and install Linux onto it as a firewall/router.
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Now my head hurts
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:40
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Wait until I get home tonight and I'll draw a pretty diagram to show you what port forwarding is.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:40
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will it make my car go faster?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:41
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Only if you've got neonz.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:48
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Ful siik Bro Cuz!
Port forwarding is that like IP ..... Ah nevermind I'll go back to my corner and wait for the picture
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 04:59
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A broadband router or other NAT application (like ICS) creates a firewall between your internal network and the internet. A firewall keeps unwanted traffic from the internet away from your LAN computers. A ‘tunnel’ can be created through your firewall so that the computers on the Internet can communicate to one of the computers on your LAN on a single port. This is handy for running web servers, game servers, ftp servers, or even video conferencing. This is called port forwarding. One of your computers could run a web server (port 80) while another computer could run an FTP server (port 23) - both on the same IP address.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 05:03
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There you go! I didn't have to draw a pretty picture after all!
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 05:06
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I was looking at this but the public/private IP adresses lose me.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 05:14
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Even I'm confused looking at that one! 
If you look back at Boris's pic, someone who tries to get onto the http (80) port of 24.2.249.4 will be directed internally to the HTTP server without them knowing. That's basically port forwarding....
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 05:20
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OK that make sense.
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 05:37
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| Lambolica wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 16:06 |
I was looking at this but the public/private IP adresses lose me.
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http://www.duxcw.com/faq/network/privip.htm
private ip addresses only exist within local ip networks
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 07:15
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the diagram is somewhat misleading - the web servers and workstations all have different private IP addresses that are contactable by (or 'routable' to) machines inside the firewall only.
However, the firewall/router/NAT device translates those addresses to the 'public' address when they connect to an external machine. And a HTTP request from the external network into firewall is translated to one of the internal addresses when passed thru the firewall/router/NAT.
However, when the second scenario is used to feed a bank of servers (e.g. a farm of web servers, the firewall/NAT function is performed by a load-balancing device (e.g. a smart DNS/firewall) to spread the requests over many servers.
This load balancing function is often used for DNS servers (e.g. optusnet have a farm of servers doing this so if one fails, you never know, and the DNS 'farm' is always available thru a few IP addresses) and web servers (e.g. google or akami) for very high-traffic sites.
Businesses might use 'load balancing' to spread different kinds of networking traffic over different servers (e.g. domain is charles.com.au and only has one 'public' IP address, yet one server does mail, another does ftp and the third does http) but they all appear to use the one 'public' IP address, even tho internally, they're different 'private' IP addresses.
But ... all this is academic ... if you've got domestic cable - optus block incoming port 80 traffic as well as other commonly-exploited ports. I assume that telstra do similar things.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 07:55
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hehehe
never knew we had so many network techs here
who else is a tech?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 07:57
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| Lambolica wrote on Wed, 17 March 2004 15:30 |
I'm about to get a new desktop to replace the old one and I want to connect my laptop to it as a network to share a broadband connection.
What are the options?
can the laptop be connected with out a server or hub?
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i can come to your house and do it all in an hour if you want
for $$ that is
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 10:27
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| RobST162 wrote on Thu, 18 March 2004 11:36 |
I welcome any virus to try.
So far I have had macs for about 10 years + and yet to be infected by anything despite no (third party) firewall and no virus software running except for a quick look maybe once a year
...
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What is your IP address?
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 10:31
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| Quote: |
What is your IP address?
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why do you own a PC and lots of viruses to share? 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 10:40
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Our router at work is almost unhackable
We left a backdoor in intentionally so we can remote admin, however it is pretty tricky shit!!
I know how to make an unhackable machine with most unix derivatives, however I don't have the time or inclination. No I will not tell you how to do this, you can pay me to set up one!!
By the way this box is almost unprotected, but there is nothing of value on it...one day i will build up a router.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 10:42
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there are several known backdoors into osx, hackers just don't get excited and publish their knowledge like all the script kiddies do...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 10:45
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If the dell has wireless network, then make sure your second card in the pc is wireless, cables suck...
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 11:25
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All peripherals should be wireless, keyboard, mouse, speakers, lan etc
and to get rid of those pesky power cables i propose we include fusion batteries into all devices mmm 1MW AA batteries lol
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 12:23
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nothing in unhackable. nada.
if you can program it then you can reverse engineer it
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 12:26
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I remember reading up on making Linux basically unhackable. It involved some low level kernel hacking shit like basically turning EVERYTHING off.
Can't remember specific details, but it really spun me out when I read it.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Connecting pc to pc
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Thu, 18 March 2004 13:10
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ummm reverse engineering is not hacking...
but ... most exploits don't come from flaws in the OS, but from poorly configured OS installations... and poorly configured human brains.
so if someone got in via an apache-based opening then it was probably not properly configured. Apache should be setup to run as a user with little- if any - system priviledges, so even if a user somehow gets apache to run a nasty script locally, the OS should step in and prevent it from doing dumb shitlike modifyinging files owned by the root user or changing network settings to establish a hidden service or server.
Most exploits come from human error, not computer error - most MS worms and viri exploit standard features in wintel - which, if disabled or configured differently, are not a security risk.
same applies to linux servers that provide all manner of services to thousands of users.
What tends to make computers 'at risk' is human falibility - how many viri have been re-lifed and launched from some total fuckwit who decides to open and run attachments sent by a total stranger from an unfamiliar email address? How many parents have found their kids PCs serving porn from Messenger or some other chat client beucase they never knew that chat could do that...
And then there's human engineering - send an email that 'looks' like it came form the bank and people seem to supply all manner of personal info. Make a website that looks like a bank, and people try to give it their pin& acct numbers. Or just give their details over the phone to someone who 'sounds' like they're from the local gas company...
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