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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sat, 03 April 2004 16:14
 
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There isnt such a thing.
Toyota only used the SC12 (1.6L) and SC14 (2L).
You could try using two SC14's.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sat, 03 April 2004 16:20
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ahh crap... that means im stuck with a supercharger that would flow 4psi .. haha.. woot!
Any alternatives? - 2 - 3k limit...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 02:14
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...2-3K puts anything from CAPA out of the picture?
i take it that you're trying to avoid turbo? cause 2 x 2nd-hand turbos (e.g. CT26?) would be good - run in tandem, not sequential - but you'd still run into cost issues unless you built the manifold(s) yourself.
i've seen people stick GM blowers into the sides of old holden sixes? but you'll still run into fabrication costs...
or dump forced induction and stick with fuel injection and go single throttle bodies with tuned trumpets fed from a decent cold-airbox (e.g. new intake manifold)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 03:45
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i agree 2 SC14's would be ideal.. they come off a 2L, so even at the stock drive ratio would produce more boost on a 3.5L... more hassle to set up, but snazzy...
other options.. possibly Eaton M90 (i think from US 3.8L??) seen one of them adapted to a 22R motor..
good luck.
mmmm hexathrottle!!!! just saw a pic somewhere of a ford 4.1 with 6 bike carbs (36mm mikunis?) looked very nice 
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 04:33
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Hmmm i happen to have seen a SC14 run on a RB30DE, and a 3.8 commo v6, the rb is running about 10psi with a pully change, but the commodore was running about 3.5 psi. The rb has a bucket of torque now and so did the commodore when it was on, but these chargers have no balls up top, they just tend to run out of puff when you rev the motor out. Though for the price it gives a fairly good performance return.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 04:36
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* I only considered SC for the fact of increasing useable torque across the rev. range. - The car is being built for balance and extreme drivability.
Well i have a 5k ideal limit on budget - The motor has 200k up on the clock so I'd put a bit aside to address that issue..
Whats the best way I can put 5grand to work in a N/A setup ?
My ideas so far, Powerchip, slightly agressive cams, throttlebody, injectors, lightenflywheel, short gear ratios , exhaust set up.
What i have no idea about:
Port and polish, larger intake manifold, increasing the bore / stroke...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 08:11
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What is the motor?
With 200k on the clock, I wouldn't waste my time. The motor is well on the way to needing a rebuild. Any money you spend on go fast bits will not be rewarded and will hasten the motor's demise.
That said, the standard tenets of NA tuning apply. Intake, cams, compression, exhaust and revs apply.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 11:26
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Ideas on a supercharger suitable for a 3.5L straight 6 motor ??
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Im guessing a magna engine?
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Maybe not.
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 11:27
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Scrap the shitta and go 1JZ/2JZ style!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: toyota supercharger for a 3.5l engine
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Sun, 04 April 2004 11:35
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I6 with 3.5 litres capacity - maybe BMW circa mid-late 80's - 535, 635, 735?
Mmmmmm....635 coupe...
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Sun, 04 April 2004 11:36
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ah yeah magna's are V6's arent they!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Sun, 04 April 2004 21:22
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Forged pistons and a block rebore. Forgies 1300, block rebore 120. You'd have to assemble it.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 01:23
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2x SC14s? what a waste of time, effort and money for the same result as one SC14.
those toyota superchargers aren't like turbos, just coz it came off a 2.0L doesn't mean that two will be required to feed a 3.5L engine. they are a huge s/c for the 2.0L factory application, so much so i will be using one on my 4.0L 1UZFE on 4.5psi boost.
beemers take to boost like fiats. long stroke engine love boost, and i doubt your engine would be up around the 9.0:1 CR, it would be more like 8.4 - 8.7:1 CR just like every other beemer of that vintage.
it would take 6psi no worries (maybe 10 with a good intercooler) and with good tuning and a good exhaust would see you a good 170ish RW kW and approx 390Nm. i've seen an SC14 on an M5 and it went like stink.
remember, beemer might not be 'powerful', but geez they're a torquey engine and so much fun to drive.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 03:50
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| onejayzed wrote on Mon, 05 April 2004 11:23 |
2x SC14s? what a waste of time, effort and money for the same result as one SC14.
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Are yoiu serious??
An SC14 displaces 1.4 litres per revolution. Yes you can overdrive it to buggery to get the required airflow for a 3.5L engine, but it will be WAY out of its efficiency envelope; inlet temps will go through the roof and I would expect the blower's lifespan to be fairly limited. Definitely not the recommended approach; 2xSC14's will work much better!
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 06:43
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aren't ALL superchargers overdriven? isn't that the whole idea behind supercharging? if that's the case, then turbochargers are 'overdriven to buggery' while they spin at 100,000rpm.... 
how else do you expect to see +ve manifold pressure?
there is a kit from castlemaine rod shop that adapts the SC14 to the commodore V6 (3.8L) and runs 7psi of boost. there is also another kit for the RB30E that can run 10psi of boost.
2x SC14s would be a plumbing, bracket, manifolding and belt nightmare if you wanted to keep it in an underbonnet situation - let alone trying to make it look neat.
by the sounds of the power figures required, he's not after monster power figures, just a bit more guts and better fuel economy. 1x SC14 would be plenty.
the maximum rpm limit for the toyota superchargers is 11,000rpm.
considering that the the s/c spins at around 7000rpm and produces 4.5psi on a short stroke 2.0L 6 cylinder, there is enough left in it to feed a 3.5L long stroke 6 cylinder at roughly the same boost if overdriven - maybe a shade more (like 6psi).
i plan to run one on my 1UZ on 4psi of boost with a calculated rotor speed of 10,500 rpm at 7000 rpm engine revs.
6psi of boost on a 3.5L six that revs to 5500? anyday...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 07:08
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Anyway....
If you plan to stay NA, I suggest you take a look at the M3 motor.
Individual throttle body fuel injection with a decent cold air intake. High compression (aim for 11:1 if possible). Appropriate head porting (by this I mean flowing the head, seeing if it will support the horsepower you plan to make and porting to suit). Long duration high lift cams. Mandrel bend headers, 6-2-1 design with primaries about 300-330mm long and 1.75" diameter, secondaries approx 6-700mm long and 2.25" diameter collecting into a 2.5" main pipe.
Of course, the bottom end should be lightened where possible balanced and blueprinted. You may need custom pistons to get the compression up that high, so you may as well make them forged.
Tuning is very important. I don't think a Unichip will cut it and for the price, it is very poor value for money. I would even suggest a Microleb in preference to that junk. If ignition timing is not computer controlled, I would strongly recommend converting your distributor to a full electronic setup and let the ECU control the timing.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 07:31
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| gianttomato wrote on Mon, 05 April 2004 17:08 |
I would even suggest a Microleb in preference to that junk.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 11:00
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Thanks Gianttomato, that information is golden - now thats why I love toymods..
By Microleb, im guessing you dont mean a small european hairy guy.. Powerchip actually claim an increase of something like 155kw -> 170, 180kw .. I thought that was a preety good power increase for $700.
onejayzed is correct - the car weighs in on the tubby side of matters 1550kg's - no amount of power is going to turn it into a supra, im just looking to add some low down torque to get the car moving out of turns / corners.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 12:23
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Microtech.
Its been said before, N/A tuning is expensive.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Mon, 05 April 2004 13:04
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and at 1550 Kg, i'd consider some serious weight reduction - e.g. dump the air con, cruise control, excess baggage/stuffing in the doors and in/under seats, and look for lighter components where available or can be made by you with alloy?
... and seeing how everybody is suggesting EFI - try megasquirt and stick with the factory dizzi until you get a second EFI ECU.
there's a few guys on the main megasquirt list doing Beemers:
81 BMW Euro 528i w/ 3.5L & Megasquirt
<http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/itruns.htm#flora nce>
<http://www.firstfives.org>
or
1989 325i
<http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/itruns.htm#jim>
at least your ECU won't chew up a significant amount of your budget.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 00:27
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| onejayzed wrote on Mon, 05 April 2004 16:43 |
aren't ALL superchargers overdriven? isn't that the whole idea behind supercharging? if that's the case, then turbochargers are 'overdriven to buggery' while they spin at 100,000rpm....
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By overdriven, I mean the blower is being spun faster than it was ever designed to. I wasn't talking about the mechanical drive ratio, which quite obviously must be overdriven.
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there is a kit from castlemaine rod shop that adapts the SC14 to the commodore V6 (3.8L) and runs 7psi of boost. there is also another kit for the RB30E that can run 10psi of boost.
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I'm quite aware that people have put SC14's on big engines, but I can assure you those SC14's won't last long. Inlet temperatures will be horrendous also. All superchargers are designed to work efficiently in a very specific airflow/pressure envelope, just like turbos, and if you try to push them too far out of that envelope things will start to get ugly. That's not to say it won't "work", to a certain degree.
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2x SC14s would be a plumbing, bracket, manifolding and belt nightmare if you wanted to keep it in an underbonnet situation - let alone trying to make it look neat.
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I agree 100%, and I certainly wouldn't attempt it. The more sensible approach is to use a single supercharger which is correctly sized for a 3.5L engine.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 00:38
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....and given that there is one readily available that sits on a 3.8 litre V6, why bother with those pissy little ones.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 01:33
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the GM supercharger is $2000 new from Holden, the SC14 in good condition is $350. that's why!
i know what you're saying Norbie, but the SC's are fine until a rotor speed of 11,000 internal rpm (not engine rpm). i don't think it will be inefficient on a larger engine at low boost, it will be the same as a smaller engine on larger boost. TRD make a kit for 12psi on the 4A and for the 1G. 12psi on a 2.0L that revs to 6000 would be equivelant to a 4.0L V8 revving to 7000 on 4.5psi.
same kit, same rotor speed, different engine, different boost.
can you see where i'm coming from?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 01:58
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| onejayzed wrote on Mon, 05 April 2004 16:43 |
how else do you expect to see +ve manifold pressure?
the maximum rpm limit for the toyota superchargers is 11,000rpm.
considering that the the s/c spins at around 7000rpm and produces 4.5psi on a short stroke 2.0L 6 cylinder, there is enough left in it to feed a 3.5L long stroke 6 cylinder at roughly the same boost if overdriven - maybe a shade more (like 6psi).
i plan to run one on my 1UZ on 4psi of boost with a calculated rotor speed of 10,500 rpm at 7000 rpm engine revs.
6psi of boost on a 3.5L six that revs to 5500? anyday...
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so 11000rpm x 1.4L = 15,400Lpm
for 2L, 15400/2= 7700rpm MAX (for NO BOOST)
for 3.5L, 15400/3= 4400rpm (for NO BOOST)
for 4L, 15400/4 = 3850rpm... this is with ZERO boost!!!
to run 4psi on a 1UZ with 1 SC14...
4/14.7 = 0.272BAR.
4L x (1+0.272) = 5.09L effective capacity.
15400/5.09 = 3025...
so with 1UZ, and 1 SC14, you are limited to 3025rpm with 4psi boost, and above 3850rpm, the SC starts pulling vacuum!!
with 2 SC14's, (15400+15400)/5.09 = 6050rpm!!
so even with 2 SC14's you are still limited to 6050rpm, and 7700rpm before you start pulling vacuum!!!!
hmmmmmm.....
maths is a wonderful way of checking these 'claims'
Cya, Stewart
[Updated on: Tue, 06 April 2004 01:59]
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 02:06
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| onejayzed wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 11:33 |
i know what you're saying Norbie, but the SC's are fine until a rotor speed of 11,000 internal rpm (not engine rpm). i don't think it will be inefficient on a larger engine at low boost, it will be the same as a smaller engine on larger boost. TRD make a kit for 12psi on the 4A and for the 1G. 12psi on a 2.0L that revs to 6000 would be equivelant to a 4.0L V8 revving to 7000 on 4.5psi.
same kit, same rotor speed, different engine, different boost.
can you see where i'm coming from?
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4A kit, 12psi on a 1.6L is (1+12/14.7)x1.6= 2.9L cap
12psi on 1G = (1+12/14.7)x2.0= 3.63L effective capacity.
at 6000rpm, 3.63x6000=21780Lpm.
21780/1.4L=15557rpm for the SC14!!!!!
same kit on 4.0L V8 at 4psi
21780/((1+4/14.7)x4)= 4280rpm......
so even with the TRD kit, and overdriven SC14, you can still only get to 4280rpm with the SC14 on a 1UZ at 4psi.
sorry onejayzed. the maths just support it....
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 03:01
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well, shit on me!
that's very interesting.
and thanks for that, saved me dispensing potentially bad advice AND doing it to my own engine. i will definitely look at the turbo option now.
but why do they work on the 3.8L V6s and RB30Es all the way to redline?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 04:04
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See my comments above re overspeeding. You can push the SC14 much harder than it was ever designed to go, they just won't last!
I'd also suggest that, especially in the case of the 3.8 V6, the restrictive cylinder heads make it behave like a much smaller engine at high rpm. Remember boost is simply a function of the air NOT going into the engine. More restriction = more boost!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
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Registered:
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Re: Best N/A options for a 3.5L 6cy
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Tue, 06 April 2004 04:11
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| onejayzed wrote on Tue, 06 April 2004 13:01 |
...but why do they work on the 3.8L V6s and RB30Es all the way to redline?
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The limited anecdotal evidence I have suggests they are actually very disappointing.
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