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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sat, 17 April 2004 03:10
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What can i dot to my 1st gen 3sge so i can make about 200whp. I know that is kind of hight, but i want to make a killer N/A motor so i can smoke some hondas.
Any help is good.LOL
-Andy.
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Location:
Campbelltown, NSW, Austra...
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sat, 17 April 2004 04:52
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The best i've heard so far for an NA 3sge is 80.4 kw, which was a achieved using extractors and a cold air intake, you might possibly be able to get more but porting and bore increases, but that would be quite costly.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
NE Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sat, 17 April 2004 05:15
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get a blacktop 4th gen Beams 3SGE (if it's FWD i think the redtop Beams 3SGE from the Caldina would be the go)... 210hp standard!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
NE Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sat, 17 April 2004 05:17
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either that or leave the engine standard and strip the car down to a go kart... what the hell do you need heavy thinks like windscreens for anyway, right???
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sat, 17 April 2004 05:21
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If you spend $20,000+ you could probably make this happen.
200hp at the wheels is like 210-220kW at the engine (depending on dyno). A Honda S2000 puts out 176, and believe me, that engine is absolutely ***insane***, for example, these things have bladed crankshaft counter-weights to reduce hydrodynamic drag in the oil in the sump.
Here's a list of some stuff you may want to consider for your 200whp 3S-GE
- Over bore 80 thou
- Offset grind the crankshaft to increase stroke
- High compression forged aircraft aluminium pistons (11:1 compression minimum)
- Forged steel H-Beam conrods.
- Lightweight forged floating gudgeon pin.
- Race-spec big end bolts/bearings.
- Fully balanced crankshaft (possibly lightened/forged replacement)
- Competition inlet valves (steel/titantium alloy pref.)
- Sodium filled exhaust valves
- VVT Inlet cam off BEAMS 3S-GE (maybe just BEAMS head)
- Aggresssively ported head (the 'not a chance of street legal emissions' kind of head)
- Motec/Autronic ECU or better.
- Quad Throttle Body EFI set up.
- Cold air induction.
- 1.75inch 4 into 1 extractors leading to (min) 2.5inch exhaust
- External 'dry-sump' style oil cooler/oil system.
- Triple core radiator
Have I missed anything? (answer : YES, but I'm too tired to think!)
Then of course you have to consider how your standard brakes/suspension/diff would deal with all this...so you may want to get uprated rear anti-roll bar, uprated front shocks/springs, twin-spot GT4 front calipers and Group A bias adjustable brake master cylinder, then possibly an LSD from an SW20 MR2.
By this time you've spent 20 grand or more, but maybe 15-20 if you do all the work yourself.
(edit)Things like ARP head bolts, o-ringing the block, copper head gaskets etc etc wouldn't go un-loved either. A BEAMS 3S-GE is good but not much room for modifying(/edit)
[Updated on: Sat, 17 April 2004 05:34]
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Sun, 18 April 2004 18:13
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Thanks, so the beams 3sge cam will fit in my 1st gen 3sge?
-Andy.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Mon, 19 April 2004 00:17
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Don't forget he's in America, so while still a REALLY hard thing to do, it's going to be easier than doing it here! 
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Mon, 19 April 2004 03:18
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You make me laugh, but i want to make a good and strong motor, not 200whp, maby 200crankhp.
-Andy.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Mon, 19 April 2004 03:38
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dudes i am real sorry but I don't know the difference between american HP and aussie HP.. I keep hearing about how it is easier to do big RWHP or whatev in the US than here..
what's the deal?
btw.. I eat hondas.. mwah.. but not s2000s lol  but CRXs are easy beats..
Camry omega, thanks for the plug... lol.. I think we have arrived at a concensus that my engine is as japanese one with a jap ecu.. that could be the only explanation for my pinging when I run anything but optimax and abnormally high power figures for an aus delivered 162..
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Mon, 19 April 2004 15:43
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A BEAMS 3S-GE is by far and away the most 'affordable' kick-ass NA engine that will fit straight into an ST162...go for it if you can find one 
Rob - that consensus sounds good to me, but when did we arrive at it, I blinked and missed it
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Mon, 19 April 2004 21:45
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Too bad, i all ready have the JDM 1st gen 3sge motor in.LOL
-Andy.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Tue, 20 April 2004 01:27
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| Quote: |
Rob - that consensus sounds good to me, but when did we arrive at it, I blinked and missed it
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lol. yes when did we arrive? ok, maybe the concensus just involves me. lol
Well it all started when I went to get some sensor plugs to replace on my water outlet, and the dude at Celicar spares said that there is only one type of plug in Austrlia.
My plugs were different than the "australian" ones. Then having no real explanation for the power, and no explanation for the pinging on crummy fuel etc, I have arrived at a consensus with myself. lol
I am just wanting some third party agreement before I make it "official" 
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Tue, 20 April 2004 03:01
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Did you check your timming? That could have a big effect on the predetination factor.
How much is your WHP figure with all your mods yove done?
How much money have you put into your car?
How many miles do you have on the car/motor?
My plan is to be able to beat an Acura Integra GSR with an intake and exhaust upgrade.
-Andy.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Tue, 20 April 2004 03:12
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Hey Andy,
my timing is stock standard. My WHP? no idea.. haven't plugged it into a converter.. just lazy I guess. 80.4 FWKW tho'
My mods, hehe, well, what they are worth and what I have spent are two very different things
The Integra GSR, what year are you talking about? one of these I assume
I would be kicking myself if I didn't chop one.. I beat one of these dudes quite easily the other night..no just with a better launch, i was actually faster 
I imagine you have someone specific in mind you want to beat
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Tue, 20 April 2004 14:10
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Yeah, i do. No not that year, a 99' gsr.
Can you give me some Aussie sites for some 4th gen parts?
Thanks for the help man.
-Andy.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 03:28
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80.4kW = 107.3hp
(btw 1hp = 749 watts)
Aftermarket performance 4th gen parts aren't so easy to find, things like exhaust headers are fairly easy (genie do some), and aftermarket performance suspension components are fairly easy to come by (king springs and KYB shocks are a favoured combination). But most engine components are usually custom/fabricated.
However, you can 'steal' quite a few bits from wreckers, the SW20 MR2 are newer and better and quite a few parts bolt straight on with little fuss.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 03:45
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keep in mind that the BEAMS 3SGE is about as good as you are going to get with a 3SGE, or even a 2L motor
so whats different between the BEAMS (and the honduh S2000) compared to normal 3SGE? the beams makes peak torque, 200nmm at about 6500rpm, and peak power, 210hp, about 7500rpm.... (S2000 is even higher due to the cams)
basically it comes down to two main things.
weight reduction of moving parts. you MUST do this to get power/torque at high rpm. otherwise piston speeds will be such that bits will break. the S2000 has light pistons AND light rods to allow it to go to such high rpm... it has piston speeds equal to what honda uses in their F1 motors......
tuning for high rpm. this is not just cams... it is a combination of cam profiles, intake tract tuning (which needs to be very spot on) AND exhaust manifold tuning.... only when these three are in the correct combination will it all work together..
there are other things, like higher compression ratio, better fuel etc..
the thing is... to equal the BEAMS motors output with the heavier internals of the normal 3SGE, you will need to build it as a race motor... heck ppl building them as race motors often don't reach the same specs!!
so i guess what i'm saying is:
find out as much about the BEAMS motor as you can, and then copy it as closely as possible.
anyhoo, food for thought
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 04:03
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You wouldn't be able to reliably get the same figures as a BEAMS 3S-GE with the heavier 'normal' 3S-GE internals. The engine would be under alot of strain and would break after 10,000k.
You need much lighter, or much stronger components if you wanted to have a long lasting 3S-GE with similar output to a BEAMS 3S-GE.
I thought piston speeds were very similar amongst all sorts of engines (in regards to the S2000 engine vs F1 engine)?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 04:21
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| FWDboy wrote on Wed, 21 April 2004 14:03 |
I thought piston speeds were very similar amongst all sorts of engines (in regards to the S2000 engine vs F1 engine)?
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yes and no...
with standard designs, materials and production techniques, from memory piston speeds are around 20m/s (4000 ft/min in old talk)
with better materials, higher quality production techniques, more attention to design, and lighter rods and pistons up to about 23-24m/s has been achieved
in 1993, hondas F1 piston speed was about 23.3m/s (REF: Automotive Engineering, sept, 1993)
weight and material strength is the critical factor for piston speed, and the 'piston speed limit' is basically due to the materials limits... if you use maybe, Al or Ti rods, you get higher strength and lower weight, so piston speed will be able to go higher.
if you run at higher rpm, which has substantially higher loads (the square of the increase in speed... ie 2x speed = 4x loads) then you are more likely to fail by fatigue anyways ..
Cya,Stewart
ps. | Quote: |
High compression forged aircraft aluminium pistons
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i know what you are trying to say (ie high quality) but aircraft are comprised of many different alloy compositions... what you want is a high strength forging alloy for forged pistons.. nothing particularly to do with aircraft
then again, forged pistons are usually heavier than cast pistons, but they are usually less brittle, and mroe resistant to death by detonation...
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 14:23
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So, does genie have a web cite? You guys keep saying that name and i have no idea where to get them, as i'm out of the USofA!!!
How much will shipping be for these to the West Cost of the USA?
-Andy.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 15:41
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I was kinda not being too serious, but in regards to the aircraft aluminium - yeah they use a tonne of different kinds of alloy (depending what characteristics they require), but the basic premise is
exy aluminium alloy piston
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Location:
Bakersfield California
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Mod hlep for a new 4th gen' guy?
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Wed, 21 April 2004 22:00
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Damn, after all, i might end up selling my car for $4000. I will then get a 240sx or an AE86.
Then i will mod the shit out of that car.
-Andy.
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