| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 09:17
 
|
 |
u must be dreaming, methanol on the streets, hope u have a rubber asshole.
there was a guy who came to Harrys diner here in brissie {car hangout}, he had a immaculate HK wagon with a blown 350 in it, he was running methanol in it, he got booked $15,000 that night, yes fifteen thousand,
$1500per cyl for methanol
$1500 for the nos
and $1550 for the huge blower
u cant run methanol at the drags with out a log book of when used, when and where bought ect ect.
u may be able to find a dodgy bloke who'll sell it but i doubt it, and i wouldnt start asking where to buy it cause its a huge fine if they catch the guy selling it.
use AVGAS or something or BP100
|
|
|
Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 10:04
|
|
| Jayem wrote on Wed, 21 April 2004 19:45 |
Methanol for RC engines can be bought from nearest shop that sells RC stuff. Local department store here sells methanol in 1 , 5 and 10 litre bottles and it's cheaper than gasoline.
|
not really the same shit, it is a 2 stroke stuff, and its like a 10% methanol concentrate
|
|
|
Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 10:22
|
|
I was speaking about raw methanol, not mixed 2-stroke fuel.
I have been under impression that this is 100% methanol. Bottle I have here doesnt say nothing about being concentrate.
My friend is getting his methanol for his twin turbo V8 pulling tractor from some Shell directly if I remember right.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 10:30
|
|
oh ok, all i know is that my brother in law had a RC car and his was a pre mixed shit
i know that the shell servo near the drags here has a hi octane fuel but they still need to see and record a licence number {ANDRA}.
as does the BP 100 they sell at Auto barn
we had to specially buy out C16+ for our pro stocker.
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 10:35
|
|
mr dohc...
- first up it ISNT for street use
- secondly, it will be in a CAMs log-booked vehicle
- thirdly, im not talking about RUNNING the car on methanol, rather, im talking about fuelling the nitrous with methanol to raise the detonation threshold. ie the regular injectors flow standard 98ron, whilst the fogger jets squirt nitrous and methanol... its only going to be used as regularly as the nitrous itself.
as for buying it, i oly intend to buy it legaly, and am curious as to exactly HOW one goes about doing this (ie chemical handlers licence or eqiv) and what kind of money it fetches per L.
im not interested in building an engine to run on avgas or bp100 all the damn time.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 10:50
|
|
i knew what your intentions were from the start of the thread, i would be careful cause i beleive the cops can book u for having N20 lines in the car even if the bottle is at home {possession with intent to use i suppose  }
and u do need a very exxy pump to handle the coarseness/acidity of methanol, and u will need special lines ect
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 11:26
|
|
The idea is quite reasonable, just remember a few small points, namely that aluminium doesn't like methanol, you need a specific pump (as mentioned) etc. Another possibility is to run C21 for race use (like C16 on steroids!) 
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 11:40
|
|
we get 20L drums of methanol at uni (and ethanol, acetone etc etc) so they should be reaonably easily available.. just not sure where.. if i remember i'll ask the chemistry store dude, see who actually delivers it...
buying methanol should not be a prob, since RC cars do use it, and it is often sold in bulk because ppl like to mix their own brews. i'll get back to you.
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 12:48
|
|
Even better distill your own from lawn clippings 
.....and hide your nawwss bottles in the passanger seat
Allan
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 21 April 2004 13:24
|
|
i located 20 litre drums of methanol from a mobil reseller - mobil itself would not sell me methanol unless i was a wholesaler buyning by the megalitre.
Pacific Petroleum Products was the co. up here in Brisbane. sorry but i can't remember the cost - i'm sure it was more that a dollar a litre and this is nearly 2 years ago and i was pretty amazed by the price then.
Phil: R U sure the guy wasn't talking about buying Avgas? it's not legal to run a methanol car on the road up here in Qld - unless it's going to/from a legit club event - but buying it is not a hassle (yet). KInda like a bong, legal to buy, just not to use if for it's designed purpose...?
Phil's spot on about requiring good lines and hoses for methanol - most strip cars running this fuel have a system to either evacuate the fuel system with compressed air, and/or flush with petrol to remove the methanol residue.
i think long term use of methanol in the injector/fogger lines might be result in early replacement - plus the life of the petrol solenoid might suffer if it's not designed for methanol.
As for it's benefit with the nitrous - 'cause methanol runs at a much lower A/F ratio than petrol, the volume of fuel you'll need to run a wet system ( you are doing this approach?) might be excessively high? methanol injected cars are mega thirsty compared to their petrol-drinking peers.
i think you're considering this as at higher output you want the burn to 'run slower'? ... but thats usually for turbo/s'chargers lifting effective CR's. Being non-force-fed, you've got the luxury of running timing/fueling up to the ragged edge at high VE situations, even with chemical help from the fogger?
It's just a guess on my part- but the benefit of going to cooler/slower burning fuel like methanol isn't going to help you as much as it does on the turbo?
why not run a hi-octane racing fuel for the wet fogger system? you'll need less and storage/use/cleaning won't be as much of a hassle?
what ever you do, can you get a decent vid of it when you do the obligatory flame-up or nitrous-assisted explosion in the engine bay?  
|
|
|
Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Thu, 22 April 2004 00:58
|
|
do it, it will work a treat, there is a guy at Oakville in syndey by the name of Russell Mobbs, $1L for methenol and take a drum with you,
you can have N20 lines in your car in NSW and the bottle as well just as long as they are not hooked up you are fine.
MR DOHC,
i think you are getting confused with av gas, anyone can buy methenol with out a licencse etc, i used to by 44gal drums of methenol and nitromethene for rc boat use,
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Thu, 22 April 2004 05:16
|
|
Try this stuff... it's cheap and better than elf racing and cams approved
| Quote: |
use AVGAS or something or BP100
|
They in the process of banning this stuff, due to high lead content.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Thu, 22 April 2004 09:35
|
|
What are they going to replace it with? Aircraft need stupidly high octane to fly at high altitudes.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Thu, 22 April 2004 11:09
|
|
i thought it was just being banned for cams/andra sanctioned events?
wildly OT but there's kit builders in the states using 13B's and subaru turbos as alternatives to lyncoming (spell?) engines - the turbos help them get around issues of air density at altitude and they run aftermarket ECU's to deal with fueling issues for same...<http://www.sdsefi.com/air9.html> ... crazy
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 03:27
|
|
http://www.etracingfuels.com
This may work better...
| Quote: |
What are they going to replace it with? Aircraft need stupidly high octane to fly at high altitudes.
|
How does stupidly high octane rated unleaded, ELF have been making it for years now. just check out the web site, how does 150RON sound?
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 04:04
|
|
I know about the ELF stuff, but do you know what it costs? 
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 06:36
|
|
$4.50L for me, $5.50 for you  the ET racing stuff you can pick it up heaps cheaper oz made oz owned, so france ain't getting any more from me, especially now my car makes an extra 15Hp...
|
|
|
Location:
NSW.south coast.Drifting
Registered:
February 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 14:04
|
|
hmmmmmm while everyone is on the topic. what would happen if i was to put c16 fuel(that i can get for cheap  ) into my 4AC stock motor?
would it explode or would there be a noticable power increase???
just a simple question->please dont bust my balls
|
|
|
Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 20:50
|
|
If the 4ac is pinging when you try to get a bit more ign advance into it then a higher octane fuel will help , The fuel does not give more power , It's the ign advance that the higher octane fuel allows that increases power .
Trevor
|
|
|
Location:
NSW.south coast.Drifting
Registered:
February 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 21:38
|
|
|
so a cheap option would be to full her up with 98RON fuel, add octance booster, advance it til it pings, then back it off a bit?
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Fri, 23 April 2004 21:48
|
|
i put 200ml per 20l of C16+ into my EFI 202 VK a few years back, and i could notice a big driveability difference, it had more torque and was heaps smoother, and i could start a single wheel burnout at 1500rpm
auto of course
why dance around the maypole, get some nitromethane up ya
|
|
|
Location:
NSW.south coast.Drifting
Registered:
February 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sat, 24 April 2004 21:12
|
|
|
mmmmmmmmmmm burnout...
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sat, 24 April 2004 22:49
|
|
In the 4AC you might notice a 10% improvement - what's 10% of nothing???
EFI VKs already have a single wheel going by 1500rpm anyway - any the party's over by about 1600rpm with those things
150RON? That seems a LITTLE optimistic, dun'nut?
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sun, 25 April 2004 00:39
|
|
[quote title=mrshin wrote on Sun, 25 April 2004 08:49]EFI VKs already have a single wheel going by 1500rpm anyway - any the party's over by about 1600rpm with those things
quote]
i never got it to go over 3000rpm duringa skid, and if it was 2 wheels it was like 1800rpm
still smoked HUGE tho, at the drgas the 11 sec car nect to me had to back off half way cause the smoke had gone directly down track and he couldnt see , still lost tho 
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sun, 25 April 2004 02:21
|
|
|
Yeah I put one into a guy's VK (kind of a conversion, I spose...) to replace the (very!) dead carby engine. He couldn't believe the extra torque, I couldn't believe how much of a pig it still was For some reason though, it just made me laugh to drive it. Felt like such a, well, er, commodore driver!
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 26 April 2004 00:13
|
|
| Quote: |
150RON? That seems a LITTLE optimistic, dun'nut?
|
All I can quote is what I'm told... 125RON is just about available... I mean to the public. we have had a couple of trials so far, so we can just wait and see.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 26 April 2004 03:09
|
|
|
how quickly would 150ron destroy your fuel lines, avgas makes your eyes water and nitromethane makes your eyes water from 50m away,
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 26 April 2004 05:42
|
|
I don't believe there's any direct relationship between octane and corrosiveness. Of course if that extra octane has been acheived using something nasty (eg toluene) that's another story!
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 03 May 2004 13:37
|
|
methanol is cheaper than standard pump petrol if you buy it in reasonably large quantities.
i was researching biodiesel and got lots of prices, some places are quite expensive.
this place seemed to be the cheapest:
Redox chemicals
http://www.redox.com
they sell it in 160kg drums, which is about 200L
1 drum: $1.58/kg
2 drums: $1.10/kg
4+ drums $0.90/kg
you shouldn't have any trouble buying it
i'd be looking at trying to let the methanol touch as little rubber as possible. it won't be very nice to it.
if you are you are using the methanol as a "supplementry" fuel to get more power and/or reduce detonation then i'd go nitromethane/methanol blend instead of straight methanol.
methanol has a RON somewhere around 140-150 from memory wheres nitromethane is up round 220.
im pretty sure it creates its own oxygen when it burns so pretty much: the more you can get into the combustion chamber the better! of course you will have to have an engine and management system capable of handling all this.
oh, and i don't remember nitro being cheap.... think $20 a litre or something
|
|
|
Location:
myrrhee
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Tue, 04 May 2004 05:59
|
|
I also used to make bio-diesel, back in 2000 for the Sydney games. I sorced methanol from "orica" for $145 a drum (205 litre) but I think the price has gone up.
Try some workshops that run drag cars maybe.
I have put some thought into this exact setup as I have been toying with the idea for a 13B turbo rotary that my brother and I race some times.
As methanol has les power per unit volume you need to run more of it.
As a rule of thumb you need to run 1.6 times the volume of methanol as you would for fuel. Ie. using a 100hp nitrous jet would require a 160hp fuel jet on methanol.
As for the fuel solenoid maybe try running a LPG gas Selinda and possibly change the seat seal. These will easily hold the required pressure.
As for cooling, Nitrous is excellent on its own (with petrol), many people use a small shot to keep intake temperatures down. Methanol on its own will also freeze inlet manifolds. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets to cold, if there is such a thing.
If the car is turbo'd you could run some ridiculously high PSI!!
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 05 May 2004 09:37
|
|
ok, now we have some useful information, thanks guys.
re: fuel/methaonl multiplication, 1.6 doesnt quite sound correct in my head, ill go check now, but 2.4 sounds a little more familiar... ill update after i do some reading...
QUESTION though... how on earth to you buy, transport, relocate etc a 250L drum of anything? how do you get it into your workshop (assume at home). i could probably borrow a ute, but be damned if i can figure a way that i could manage a 250L off the back of the ute and into a permanant home somewhere 
damn logistics
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 05 May 2004 09:51
|
|
you roll it off along two sturdy wooden planks, but do not allow to lay flat (keep one end about a foot of ground), lift/hoist up vertical if required (this comes from experience moving 44gal drums of molasses around farm)
you can also make a stand that has 1/4 circumfernce loops to hold the drum on its side - you obviously fit the tap to it while drum is vertical on back of truck/ute then roll drum onto stand
if you want to stay vertical, you'll need some sort of positive displacement hand pump.
No hoist is required to unload unless supplier says drum to remain vertical.
|
|
|
Location:
myrrhee
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 05 May 2004 11:59
|
|
I had a quick look and cant find where I got the 1.6 from, I may even be thinking of ethanol, which is slightly heavier and has more power per unit volume.
It is always safer to run a rich fuel mix with nitrous and then wind the fuel back to obtain the correct ratio to avoid leaning out. Many pistons have melted as the result of to little fuel in the nitrous powered engines, so start with big jets!
Another idea I had for fine tuning the methanol is to set your approximate jet size, run high pressure and a mechanical pressure regulator off one of those old Mercedes Benz fuel injected straight 6cyl things to regulate the pressure.
(they sit up near the fuel rail and have 3 pipes, one in and two out, and a 10mm adjuster bolt with 12mm lock nut, grab one next time your at a self-serve wreckers. I think they run a 100psi electric fuel pump to!)
I don't know how well any rubber components will hold up with methanol so it would be a good idea to run petrol through it at the end of each meet and store it like that.
I would love to hear how this thing goes if you do end up trying this set up out! it should be awesome!
P.S. You can siphon the methanol out of the 205 litre drum on the ute into another one in your shed I've done it before.
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Wed, 05 May 2004 13:01
|
|
| ed_ma61 wrote on Wed, 05 May 2004 19:37 |
how on earth to you buy, transport, relocate etc a 250L drum of anything? how do you get it into your workshop (assume at home). i could probably borrow a ute, but be damned if i can figure a way that i could manage a 250L off the back of the ute and into a permanant home somewhere
damn logistics
|
| thechuckster wrote on Wed, 05 May 2004 19:51 |
you roll it off along two sturdy wooden planks
|
Call now Dave and Allans "We'll get it off the trailer" service
Man theres a story about how we got a jamed crown v8 front cut out of a trailer to be told one day hehehehheheheh
Allan
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sun, 09 May 2004 02:06
|
|
| 84supra wrote on Wed, 05 May 2004 21:59 |
Another idea I had for fine tuning the methanol is to set your approximate jet size, run high pressure and a mechanical pressure regulator off one of those old Mercedes Benz fuel injected straight 6cyl things to regulate the pressure. (they sit up near the fuel rail and have 3 pipes, one in and two out, and a 10mm adjuster bolt with 12mm lock nut, grab one next time your at a self-serve wreckers. I think they run a 100psi electric fuel pump to!)
|
i went looking for above said fuel pressure regular yesterday
suffice to say i didnt find one.
are you talking about the fuel reg built into the k-jetronic mechanical injection (high press) distribution body, or the regulator as found on a normal, electronically injected straight 6?? i have to admit i couldnt even find the reg on the normal I6...
fwiw: i did rip a few mech injectors out of one of the mercs - these make GREAT supplementary injector bodies! easy fittings to use too. they also run a 120psi fuel pump, but be damned if i can find a reason to use one
that begs one question... why were you considering running the methanol at such a high pressure? surely you could get a similar level of tunability with a regular 70psi pump and a simple malpassi fuel pressure reg?
i also plan on running supplementary water injection along with the methanol/nitrous - and even during normal running not under nitrous. this hopefully will help control piston crown temps.
and yes, flushing the methanol with normal fuel after use is the plan.
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Sun, 09 May 2004 14:33
|
|
|
bump
|
|
|
Location:
myrrhee
Registered:
March 2004
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 10 May 2004 02:29
|
|
I will take a pic of one of these regulators next chance I get and send it to you. I think they are off the earliest EFI engines. If you want I could probably post one up for around $20 if you still cant find any.
The fuel pump was not so much an idea for the methanol, but as a free tip on where to get an awesome EFI pump for minimal cost .
What engine are you looking at running this system on? what turbo, how much boost, compression ratios, management system, ect?
Water injection is a good idea, but you definitely wont need it while running nitrous and methanol! I may be wrong but with your proposed nitrous system and lots of boost and a small inter-cooler I would still expect sub 15 degree intake temps
Water when not on nitrous is a good idea though, you could then keep similar boost pressures while not on nitrous.
What sort of water injection system are you thinking of running? I have a few interesting ideas on this subject too if your interested.
Is this setup going in your MA-61?
Keep me posted on your progress, very interested to see the results.
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Nitrous and Methanol
|
Mon, 10 May 2004 05:13
|
|
hey, a pic would be great, thanks. i went looking again yesterday and still didnt manage to find one 
as for the setup im looking at:
its a NON turbo 7mge 3.0L
looking at around 11:1 compression (built on a 7mgte block - oil squirters), custom forgies possibly using LONG rods and short compression height (gives me a much better dwell time and improved rev tolerance).
im reworking yet another head, but this time doing the cams and buckets properly (somewhere around 10-10.5mm lift, duration yet to be decided - still figuring that one out). again, ported and chambers done, six individual throttles with multiport nos foggers and 'maybe' dual stage fuel plus/minus water injection (the h20 mainly for off-the-bottle detonation control) - can you imagine the number of earls fittings!!
management yet to be decided
tossing up whether the headers in the avatar will be sufficient, or whether theyll also need re-doing. off the bottle they should be fine, but i suspect ill find them a big limitation over 300hp. i might just have to put up with that, maybe a short sidepipe and make the most of it
looking for 300+ off the bottle, 450+ on the bottle (flywheel)
yes, its all going into a ma61, and am considering high 11's @ ~115mph (not that it will be a dedicated drag car by ANY means- the nitrous is just for shits n giggles, and eastern creek is on my doorstep). otherwise some circuit use, some hillclimb use, and regular driver.
im basically more interested in the bulding of the engine, and well see what comes of it.
|
|
|
