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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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5S & 3S blocks
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Fri, 07 May 2004 00:40
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I'm sorta entertaining the idea of maybe trying out a '5S-GE' or maybe a '5S-GTE' in my St162...(traction will be sorted later, or if it doesn't work out just get rid o the 162 body and find a 165)
Now there are a couple of problems that I haven't investigated yet so I thought I'd start by asking here.
a) Does a 3S-G(t)E head get anywhere near fitting a 5S block? I'm guessing that it must be pretty close although there will definitely be some fiddling (probably in regards to cam belts).
b) Does the 5S block even get close to being able to fit in an ST162 engine bay? Things like mounting points for steering pumps and alternators are different (i'm guessing) but there may be other stuff - if anyone has any pics of a 5S block stripped/semi stripped down it would be handy for a start.
I'm also hoping that it will use the same engine mounts (E-W and N-S) as a 3S block (it should being an 'S'?)
If anyone has ever had a look into this before any info would be handy.
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Location:
Darwin
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 00:15
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I Was Wondering much the same thing but with the 2S Block and 3S Head. Would it Fit? Personally I don't see why not as most other Toyota engines have Interchangable parts.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 02:43
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Looks like I'm going to be investigating this one myself at the moment 
I did a search a while back on these forums and came up with squat.
Usually toyota engines are fairly compatible ie 4T/3T/2T, the 7A & 4A, and the K engines etc so I imagine the 'S' engines should be fairly 'interchangeable' as well...I think the nasty part comes down to making sure everything fits well.
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 03:23
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| FWDboy wrote on Sat, 08 May 2004 12:43 |
Looks like I'm going to be investigating this one myself at the moment
I did a search a while back on these forums and came up with squat.
Usually toyota engines are fairly compatible ie 4T/3T/2T, the 7A & 4A, and the K engines etc so I imagine the 'S' engines should be fairly 'interchangeable' as well...I think the nasty part comes down to making sure everything fits well.
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I'd like to know about this myself the natsy thing about it would be to make sure it all fits well as you said I'm not sure about it my self but it may be possible don't you get a better compression ratio from doing things like that?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 03:38
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Possibly, the 5S block may be physically taller not sure It has a longer stroke I know that (90mm) and has 87mm bore (1mm more than the 3S block).
I'm in the market for a 5S block (posted in the WTB section) so I'll let you guys know how the fitting is going once I have a wrecked and/or otherwise cheap block in my hands.
It is likely that the compression ratio will be different, for sure...I'll have to measure it somehow.
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 07:59
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it probabally is taller as the 5S is a bigger motor, 2l (3S) as to 2.2l(5S) longer stroke and bore but not much more compared to the 3S
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 08:44
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You can't fit a GE head on an FE S Block. It's not the same as the A series engines.
To do what you want you have to stroke a 3S-GTE with a HKS kit.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 11:33
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I understand there WAS a so-called '5SGTE kit' made in Japan in the early 90s, I've heard of it once, and know nothing else about it though, sorry!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 11:42
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if you want to go with the 2.2L capacity, you need to use the 5S crank in the 3S block.It is not straight forward though.
However, as a good friend(JustenGT4)pointed out to me when I was considering a 2.2L 3SGTE using the 5S crank, why didnt TTE do the same thing with there cars.
Unless you have the money to buy a genuine stroker kit ($5,000), stick with the 2L 3SGTE. It doesnt cost that much to really get them moving and they are a super tuff engine when built properly.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sat, 08 May 2004 16:34
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well first of all if my reply doesn't m,aker scence I"ve just come home and I'm blind drunk!  the only difference is the size of the motor and the hhead a 5S-FE is bigger then any 3S motor i thought and another was that and the head design of the FE and the GE I know for fact the 5S is bigger thenj the 3S but isn't the GE head wider then the mighty FE head? (hey i love the FE head very ecconimical and has adiquet performsance) try typing when your drunk!  so wouldn't the extra width help it fit and also I thought the 3S-FE and the 3S-GE heads used the same blo0ck? as they are the same size motor 2L if they have a displacement of 1998 then they are can anyone help me on this matter?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 01:11
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Yeah even though they may have the same 'name' (FE) the 3S-FE and 5S-FE heads could be well different (although I'm not sure exactly why, I am going to investigate still the 5S + GE head unless someone can give me conclusive statement as to why this won't work)
The 3S-GE head will fit onto a '3S-FE' block as they are both '3S' blocks. There must be some difference between the 5S and 3S block bolting pattern/cylinder spacing, but there is still the possibility that it could be overcome with minor modification depending what is stuffed. The fact that the 5S crank can make it into a 3S block is encouraging, although not conclusive.
I'm still open to being turned away from the idea if someone has more info on this.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 01:19
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sorry guys about my reply was pretty drunk at the time god i feel queezie tis mornin um yeah what i was trying to say was that the differences would more then likly be the head desigin as ones a F head (narrow angle twin cam head) to a G head(wider sportier twin cam head) but a question of interest would be would the 3S-G(T)E head fit on the 5S block with it being wider? and also i thought that the 3S-FE 3S-GE and the 3S-GTE used the same block (thought because of the 3S because isn't that the engines family?) and to my knowledge not sure but i have never seen a 5S-GE before I've only seen the 5S-FE in the wide body camrys and celicas so thats why i think that for sorry if you couldn't understand my reply before
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 01:20
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| FWDboy wrote on Sun, 09 May 2004 11:18 |
In regards to the 3S-GE head being wider (than the 3S-FE), it is really only wider at the top of the head as the angle between the intake and exhaust ports is much narrower (due to not needing two big-ass cam gears with a belt over them) although the bottom of the head is the same width. The 3S-GE head has a much 'flatter' intake/exhaust port layout meaning it is much wider (and possibly 'shorter' but I have no proof of that).
I'm just surprised I guess that this won't work given toyota's past history of good engineering (interchangeability). Almost all their engines can be mixed and matched within the same series (T, K, A and others).
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yeah I'm starting to think it won't myself
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 01:38
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I'm still befuddled though
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 02:09
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some ones gotta know?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 02:13
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If anyone has (or can get) a big-ass picture of a 5S-FE head gasket that'd be handy, cause I'm pretty sure I've got a HG for a 3S-GE lying around and I might be able to get some idea comparing them visually (although again, that won't be conclusive).
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 02:21
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hi everyone here, note the blocks on these engines are the same i think you'll find that the 5SGE is a stroked version of the 3S, and the heads are the same, its the crank shaft and pistons you need change, as for taking the pistons from the 5SFE i would say you are probably insane if you are goin to tune it i have this engine in my 184 its not as revy and does ~as much as i dislike it~ have a few missing screws, they cut back on engine internals for it. if you want a 5SGTE you can fine a stroker kit, they do exist and it will work, as long and you start with the 3SG(T)E which you obviously are as thats the engine in the 162, you may fine tho that the power gained is minimal in between the 3 to the 5 however with this being said you'll also find that the torque will increase noticably, this in the front wheel drive 162 may not have the affect that is wanted by you, its best suited the RWD cars ~IE MR2's~ how ever i stand by the idea that i will work in the GT4, the gearbox may need the looked at b4 anyplans are made!!!
hope this helps
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 03:43
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I'm currently just looking at doing a 5S-'GE' combining the head from the 3S-GE and the 5S-FE block. But I have been told by camryman that the GE head won't fit on the 5S-F block. I only have a NA 3S-GE in my car at the moment and am looking at the possibility of a few extra cubes to help it out in a straight line. The idea of using just the crankshaft from the 5S may be dicey as it would be hard to find a piston/rod combo that won't punch through the head and provide 20:1 compression or 6:1 compression (okay I don't have exact figures, but I'm fairly sure it won't be straightforward).
Anyway, here's a pic of a 3S-GE HG so it should be comparable to the 5S-FE HG
(it's a link so click on it for a bigger picture - aren't I modem friendly )
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 04:00
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to be honest for another 200CC's is it really worth it ?
The 3sgte motor is plenty tough enough and grunty enough in its original form , though IMHO - money trying to stroke it would be better put into the likes of a decent set of forgies , st205 rods , decent bearings , head gasket , and an aftemarket ecu or turbo Highflow ..
Torguwe is good , but 200CC's wont really make a huge difference over a toughened 3sgte with greater boost potential
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 04:17
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| Quote: |
to be honest for another 200CC's is it really worth it ?
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Well, good question
Top end power wise, it will make next to dick all difference. Torque wise? It will help out a little bit. The fact is, I may be able to get a more deirable compression ratio with minimal modification and may even be able to keep the non-interference nature as well - depending on a few things.
200cc is 200cc, there may be weight differences between the engines that won't favour the 5S block, but I'm just interested to see where this can go and no one else seems to have much info on it other than "it can't be done" or "it can be done".
I don't really want a turbo engine in a fwd car just yet, but I would like to try this out to see how it ends up on a dyno (if it is at all possible!)
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 04:20
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note : I am just looking at NA at the moment!!!! Not turbo...turbo would be a completely different story and I would agree that the 3S-GTE is a better option than a 5S-'GTE' hybrid.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 04:45
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Ahh ok ..
i know a 5sgte has been done before in the states with good results , havent seen a 5sge though ..
Still - have a look at the options you have in stroking - or maybe looking at better cam profiles too to liberate some grunt ..
Start small - work up
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 04:52
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I'm sorta going one step at a time, I don't want to get too far ahead of myself -> I'm hoping to start with the 5S-GE and work up from there (cams etc)
I am starting to think, though, that it won't be possible as *no one* on these forums has one, and that's a pretty bad sign 
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 10:03
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Well, tomorrow I'm going to go to a wreckers to see what's available in the way of stuffed/cheap 5S-FE block/engines. Maybe pick one up and see what happens...won't spend more than a couple of hundred or so, so that I don't lose too much if it doesn't work.
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Location:
toowoomba qld
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 10:10
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I hope it does work I'm very interested in seing if it does
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 14:00
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for the K motors, there are different strokes and bores.
increasing stroke comes with a taller deck height. bore spacing is the same for all. the bigger motors have wider skirts to fit the crank in.
fwiw, between 3K (1200cc) and 4K (1300cc) the difference is 10mm deck height.
grab a 3S and 5S gasket from wherever, line em up. make sure oil and head bolt holes line up.
then find pics of the front of the motors (or better yet, tak your own pics) and make sure timing covers/gears/belts ans shit will swap over nicely.
what you wanna know is if the bore spacing is the same (likely), if the stroke/deck height is the same, if the front bits can bolt on.
if crank is bigger, but deck height is same, then you can swap easily, if not you need shorter rods or pistons with lower pin height.
you also want to check if the pistons are dished/dome and what volumes they are, and also the combustion chamber volumes etc..
in the K series, the 4K has a flat top and dished piston version, and 5K/7K are dished.. which makes direct swaps more interesting..
anyhoo, don't get put off just cos no-one else knows 
take a 3S gasket to a wrecker (u-pull-it type) and rip the head off a 5S , measure deck heights etc...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Sun, 09 May 2004 14:34
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The cylinder spacing would be the same as 5S cranks have gone into 3S blocks before so that shouldn't be an issue, however, bolt holes and water/oilways are the trick.
The timing belts will be slightly different as the 5S-FE has a narrow head that only has one cam gear running off of the crank, whereas the 3S-GE has the two gears driven by the crank.
Pistons in 3S-GE have 'dome' type layout (sorta cut-outs for the valves). The 3S-GE pistons are probably the go as the angle between the valves on the 5S-FE head are different and hence the cut-outs for the valves will not match the head if I use 5S-FE pistons.
(yes - I've thought quite a bit about this)
Basically I'm going to go grab a 5S-FE HG tomorrow and match that up maybe, or take my 3S-GE HG around to the wreckers and check it all out on the 5S-FE head.
Still wouldn't mind someone posting up a pic of a 5S-FE head gasket though
Cheers for the advice - I do need to check out the combustion height and volume, but unfortunately I haven't had the time to take my 3S-GE head off.
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Location:
Redbank Plains,near Ipswi...
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Mon, 10 May 2004 01:20
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all S blocks I have seen have the same deck pattern which means the GE head should physically fit. the big differences are the water galleries on the F head are totally different so you have to use the correct gasket for the HEAD . The compression will be higher and you will have to carve out the chamber to get it right-this is not easy as there is not a lot of spare metal to work with
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Mon, 10 May 2004 06:55
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Yeah, so far my investigations haven't lead to anything conclusive. I can say though, that I'm sure the 3S-GE/FE heads will fit onto a 2S block...however, the 3S-GE pistons must be used (again, to suit the valves as the 2S pistons are 'dish' type) this means the 2S block should be bored. Also the correct gasket must be used.
If the 2S is in a RWD car though, you may struggle, as the intake manifold and dizzy/water junction will all probably foul on the firewall or brake booster stuff!
As for the 5S-FE/3S-GE combo, it may be possible. I have found an ST184 in a u-pull-it wreckers and the car is absolutely burnt to the ground yet the engine still looks like it may be useful for test fitting stuff.
The only question mark so far is that in a catalogue for the head gaskets, the 5S-FE head gasket seemed to be the upside down diagram of the 3S-GE gasket (slight water gallery differences, but they are head related I think, not block related), so who knows whether that means anything or not I guess I'll find out soon enough as....
....I'm pretty confident this will work, on Thursday I'm going to spend a few hours at this wreckers trying to convince the engine to come with me then I will once and for all know whether this is possible.
At this stage, I'm saying 'yes' it is.
As for the compression issues? I'm hoping that maybe a 1.5mm copper head gasket can help, plus maybe machining some of the piston? (can this be done with pistons with the valve cut-outs?)
Will give more info on this on thursday!
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Mon, 10 May 2004 13:19
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I've read that this has been done with earlier 5S-FE (as in pre 1992) but not the later model 5S-FE as they changed the oilways/water galleries. As in, get a 5S-FE off of a 1990-1992 camry or something?
I'm getting alot of conflicting info
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Mon, 10 May 2004 21:14
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the head on the 5S-FE is shit yes, but it also was cut back on other engine internals, it just about impossible to get a 5s-FE to a 5s-GE, if you want a 5S-GE, you have to storke a 3S-GE engine, and i would surgest doin this with proper stroking kit, how ever it has been done by inserting the crankshaft and pistons from the 5S-FE engine, this is highly not recommended tho.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 02:46
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sadly and scary it has been done i found this out when i was looking up engines for for my ST184, ~i desided that it best to keep this one NA and i shall have fun with twin turbo supra later on in life.~ most of the information you'll find of use on this will be on a MR2 site that i seem to have misplaced, there is also another strand on in this section that i posted alittle while back
http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=32871&rid=5178&S=b2f859b03d1534230e9e406 62ab9c1fe&pl_view=&start=0#msg_288516
another thing i would be worried about is putting the rather large amounts of torque and power that can be gain from this engine thru a FWD.
good luck with what ever you deside on
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 03:03
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Cheers for that actually!
I can understand if the 5S crank may not be as good as the crank from a 3S-GTE. It seems like the biggest pain in the arse is the whole compression ratio.
I'm not really worried about the torque, seeing as I'm just doing NA at the moment, even if the compression ratio ends up being better than 9.0:1 (like 9.5:1 or 10:1) and I end up with 190-200Nm of torque, it's not earth shattering.
How can you 'test' the strength of a crank? I imagine the crank wouldn't survive any strength testing procedure
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 03:14
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well the a stock 5S-FE will put out 196Nm, but i wasn't aware that you were keeping it NA, in that case i would be worried that much about it, but if you read the other strand they basically said don't be a lazy prick and do it properly with a stroking kit, there is also a link on the other strand which says where you can get a stroking kit from.
best of luck FWDboy
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 03:47
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Does anyone want to place bets on the chances of me getting the block/sump/one piston and conrod out of a near burnt to the ground ST184 within 3 hours
I'll give 3-1 odds (j/k).
Yeah - the stock 5S-FE puts out 196Nm of torque, but I'm sort of accounting for the fact that the 3S-GE isn't tuned amazingly well and probably will only just get around about those figures - I'm also predicting that I won't get a huge power increase either - as the real power generally comes from the cylinder head and with only 1-2mm larger bore I'd be surprised if I get much more than 3-5kW if the compression ratio stays the same (I'm hoping to 'adjust' the compression ratio in favour of more power/torque at the expense of having to run 98 octane)
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Location:
Brissy QLD
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 04:10
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ummmm i dunno how to say this but you'd be lucky to get any real gain in power with out tuneing it properly, you will get more torque then you think tho, extra displacement will usually give you more torque, i wouldn't be supprised if it decreases your rev-ability as the redline in the 5S-FE is like 6.2, but then again the 3S-GE has a much beta set of cams on it.
i would love to see what comes out of the new engine if you choose to go ahead with it.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 5S & 3S blocks
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Tue, 11 May 2004 04:34
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Well, I imagine the redline on the 5S-FE is partly to do with the head...but I'm hoping to keep reciprocating mass to a minimum (ie keep it as close as possible to the 3S-GEs reciprocating mass so the redline is ~ equal).
As for tuning it properly, the 1st gen 3S-GE has a fairly hard-wired ecu (not EPROM or flash etc) so it would be best to get a replacement ECU. I don't quite have the funds to stretch that far, but that may happen later.
I'll probably post any more updates on my cars' thread in the members rides section.
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