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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 08:04
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ok i know theres gonna be alotta controversy here, flamers and ppl telling me im insane and its sacrilige, just hear me out and keep an open mind....read the facts
ok first off i was dubious about the idea, then i read in fast fours an article about a dato 1600 with a SR20DET dumped in it, running, you guessed it LPG, and getting 200RWKW....so i did some research
appart from the chance of cylinder cracking and valve seats getting fuked, no worries, if i run liquid injectors, i shouldnt have a problem at all
plan to do a full conversion, no dual system
LPG = Caltex gurantee 100RON minimum, usaully 105-110
ULP = 92
PULP = 95
BP ultimate = 98
so we got anti-detonation thing going on aswell, considering price, im getting more for less, which is another main reason for this idea, i do average 700km/week
CLIFF NOTES: considering complete conversion for 3S-GTE GT4 from ULP to LPG, read about SR20DET running it easy doing 200RWKW
LPG = Caltex gurantee 100RON minimum, usaully 105-110
ULP = 92
PULP = 95
BP ultimate = 98
benfits: anti knock + money (i do 700km/week)
feedback? just trying to find/learn more
[Updated on: Thu, 03 June 2004 11:15]
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 08:46
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I have seen this sort of thing done. The engine I saw and spoke to the owner about (track car) was a 3SGE NA running a custom inlet manifold with two gas carbs sitting on.
If you look around you can get gas with great RON ratings up around the 120 mark. Just be prepared to wear your engine out a little quicker - that is, fuel does help to lube things.
It should be an interesting project
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:11
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One of my mates had an RX7 13B turbo running on gas - The thing hammered!
But as Youngy said, it lacks the lubricating properties and you'll burn through a tank quicker.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:14
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is there any way of avoiding the nasty wear? water meth injection.....new liquid injectors. i know LPG car run different oil. do the Liquid in jectors make much difference
what would wear that would need replacing, and any idea how soon?
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:17
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I'm not sure, but I don't think the wear would be anything dramatic. It just may not last as long as the same engine running normal petrol. Personally, I wouldn't let it stand in my way, I mean it's not like it's gonna wear out within a year or something.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:32
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Actually, a properly tuned engine running LPG will last much longer than the same engine running petrol, provided it has hardened valve seats (as any modern engine will).
In the old days the lead in fuel used to prevent valve seat recession (this was sometimes incorrectly called "lubricating" the valves, but no actual lubrication occured), so if you converted to LPG without upgrading the valve seats the lack of lead will cause valve seat recession. Of course modern engines are already designed to run without lead so this isn't a problem any more.
The big advantage of running LPG is it enters the combustion chamber in gaseous form, and thus cannot wash the thin film of oil off the bores like petrol can. That's the reason a properly tuned LPG engine will outlast a petrol engine; taxi engine have been known to do a half million kilometres and the bores are still in excellent condition!
Now, back to the original topic. Liquid LPG injection is still a pipe dream, so you're stuck with bodgy old carbs. Sure it works but it's nowhere near as good as modern EFI, so expect a drop in power, driveability and fuel economy. The uber-high octane no longer exists (most LPG is 98 RON, same as high-octane petrol) and only a few places have 100 RON, but 2 points is nothing to get excited about.
LPG is nowhere near as cheap as it used to be (I remember buying the stuff for less than 10c a litre, occasionally it would drop down to 5!) so you don't get any long-term savings unless you do LOTS of kilometres every year.
On top of this you've got the usual downsides to LPG: extra weight and reduced cargo space thanks to the LPG cylinder in the back, and in most cases you can't drive as far on a tank because of the lower fuel capacity and higher fuel consumption.
That's lots of negatives and not many positives. Do you really want to spend all that money butchering a perfectly good GT4?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:39
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*ouch*
Take THAT LPG GT4 Concept!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:43
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wen u say bodgy old carbs, ur not talking carberator are u?
im not planing to put the tank in the boot, im planning to get rid of the petrol tank and replace it, i do 700km a week, thats 36,400, its enough to consider it
theres LPG running EFI, im not sure what u mean by "Liquid LPG injection is still a pipe dream, so you're stuck with bodgy old carbs. Sure it works but it's nowhere near as good as modern EFI, so expect a drop in power, driveability and fuel economy."
fuel economy is werse i know, but cost outweighs that, a drop in power i wouldnt expect to be more than 5-10% from what ive heard so far on an EFI, which confuses me again on the "carb" comment
thanks for the insight and all the help though, just trying to get all the info etc i can
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 09:54
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There are no reliable, production-ready electronic fuel injection systems for LPG yet, although plenty of people have been working on it for many years now. Yes modern EFI cars can be fitted with LPG, but they still use gas carburettors which are not electronically controlled and don't resemble injectors in any way!
A 5-10% drop in power is pretty significant I would have thought, especially when you're talking about a performance car like a GT4. Sure you might not care if it's a Commodore, but come on, this is a GT4!
Long-term running costs are a plus (although it will probably take you at least 2 years just to break even), but if that concerns you so much, go and buy a cheap Corolla runabout for $5k - it will be even cheaper to run! 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 10:17
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damn that suks........i thought there was EFI systems for LPG, but at the same time, i did the maths, id re-coup my LPG install cost in 10 months minimum..........may end up waiting and converting a second car
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 10:21
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hoooo hah
there are fuel injection systems for LPG. i can't find them quickly but i'll have a look thru my archives. ok its still very much in its infancy but, it will get there. there seem to be two types, vapour injection and actual liquid injection, both have their pluses and minuses though.
speak with mrshin on this. he's miles ahead of the comp.
what norbs is referring to (bodgy old carbs) is that LPG *rings* use a venturi effect to draw the LPG out of the convertor into the plenum which then mixes with air. this in itself is effective, but not ideal
you then have your gas research gear, which, is a similar principal but gets rid of the issues with lack of progression between idle and WOT and cruise ect via jetting.
FWIW i have a gasresearch s350 mixer (carby) and aussie b2 (simple convertor) on my 4AGE. so far so good. wait for the 1uz.
the excise on LPG is not going on till 2011 either. when it does i think its supposed to be 2.5% or some crap. needless to say it will still go up like most things.
and the RON, well, its not 105-110 - about 20 years ago it used to be - now its not as good as what it used to be i'd prolly suggest its 100 on a good day...you won't find detonation issues due to the lower flash point of the shit though.
LPG will make your engine run smoother and believe me every 5000km when you pull your oil out and filter - it will come out clean - almost a shame to throw it away really.
have a look at the unigas calculator if you wanna try and calc whether its going to be cost effective....
http://www.unigas.com.au/pages/calculator.html
remember you also have to rig up some form of ignition management too (unless you plan on running your stock ECU and remapping or something)
i've waffled on enough, hope it helps.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 11:12
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Thanks Greg  Yeah, PM me if you wanna chat 
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Location:
Bottom of the hill, Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 11:31
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Have a look at this page.
http://www.injec.com/tech_data.htm
Check out the GoGas Technology link.
I drove an EA falcon wagon with liquid phase injection fitted and it went well. It was quick enough to leave a VP SS behind  .
Brad
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Location:
I wanna go Hawaiiiiii.......
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 12:39
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Call up Jamie from JT Mechanical in Cardif NSW, 0249569600.
He has built many performance dedicated LPG setups. His 500rwhp 1j Ute is a dual fuel setup that runs lpg when on workshop hack duties. The old engine was a dedicated LPG navara 4 cyl engine (boat anchor) which made over 150rwkw.
He tells me modern lpg technology uses only 5% more fuel than petrol, and in a dedicated setup will not compromise power.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Thu, 03 June 2004 19:34
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its 2011
read the press release http://www.unigas.com.au
if you do the kays mate yeah you'll get your money back quick - you do milage like me a week so yeah thats why my next one will be gas only. cost of fuel is killing me, plus, i prefer lpg anyway (better fuel)
and yes gas will still use a wee bit more even in a single fuel setup - but - bet you'll gain power and smoothness...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Fri, 04 June 2004 02:44
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fair enough, latest issue of Australian Motor was where i got my info, and they're usually spot on, dunno what went on there
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: TAXI JUICE on my GT4
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Sat, 05 June 2004 00:48
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I run LPG with all gas research equipment on my single turbo converstion 1g-gte and it goes fine. Never have any problems with it running out of fuel, given the fact that I have such a large carbi and 2 converters. and fuck is it cheap! so my opinion is go for it.
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