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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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battery relocation
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Sun, 06 June 2004 13:12
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yes ive searched, just spent over an hour reading up on battery relocating on various forums so i got a pretty good idea of how to go about it just want a few opinions.
* fuse, circuit breaker or nothing? if using a circuit breaker, what sort, how much and where from?
* are the cheapo battery boxes you get from super cheap and the like sealed? if not, where can you get sealed ones from? i plan on running a vent out of the car and i was planning on using the cheapo boxes but if they arent sealed then i prob cant use them. dont want excess fumes considering its going into a hatchback.
* where are people running all their little power wires too(not the main one from the battery i know that goes to the starter)? the starter motor or a distribution block? i was gonna run them to the starter but a distribution block would look a little more professional so does anyone have a pic of a dis block setup?
sorry for long post 
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Sun, 06 June 2004 13:15
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The battery box doesn't have to be sealed! Yes its kinda stupid but it doesn't matter, you just need to have a vent to the out side to comply to the rules.
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Sun, 06 June 2004 13:19
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with my set up i have the battery just in front of the left rear tyre well. the ground exits the box and bolts straight to the chassis. The power wire is fed under the carpet to the engine bay. Care is taken to ensure that it is protected where it goes through the firewall with rubber grommets.
In the engine bay it connects to the main connection that normall resides on the positive terminal.
simple, and effective.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Sun, 06 June 2004 23:17
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Mine is being totally rewired and compliant with CAMS L3 spec. So i have this:
Battery, 4awg, Fuse, Isolation switch in the centre console behind handbrake, distro block in passenger footwell.
From the distro, i then have links to the starter (8awg), Alternator (8awg), general electrics (12awg), Fueling (12awg), Ignition (12awg) and lights (8awg).
All my fuses are currently being relocated where the glovebox would normally sit.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 03:41
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I am currently doing this in my Sigma. It does have to be sealed and vented to the outside, box and all. So those $20 black battery boxes do not count. It also does not matter whether you use a LA or SLA or other type of sealed battery, same rules apply.
I ran 0 guage through my car, then into a distro block. Currently it is non-fused and no circuit breaker on the main wire. Reason is, all the trailing wires got to fusable links. Plus if you fuse it and it blow while driving, goodbye everything. Circuit breaker would be good, but doesn't allow your system to spike on heavy drainage like a fuse will. Only problem with no protection on the main wire is if it grounds, the cable can take a lot of current, so the battery will melt. So ensure the cable is well protected and clear of protrusions.
[Updated on: Mon, 07 June 2004 03:42]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 04:04
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just fuse both ends of the main long cable, its as simple as that.
ie have a fuse mounted on or very close to the positive temrinal of the battery, run the cable to the fused distribution block in the engine bay (which you can think of just as the old clamp that used to clamp on the battery)
0 gauge? i wont say overkill, but i wouldnt use any larger than 4 gauge.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 05:34
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| Sigmeister wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 13:41 |
It does have to be sealed and vented to the outside,
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Wrong. The RTA does not specify that the box has to be sealed. They specify the battery has to be in a plastic box with a plastic or rubber tube exiting the cabin/hatch area.
Ring the RTA and get them to fax you the document they fax us every 3 months.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 05:56
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| Cool1 wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 15:04 |
| Sigmeister wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 13:41 |
It does have to be sealed and vented to the outside,
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The RTA does not specify that the box has to be sealed.
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The ADR rules do however state that it must be sealed and vented I rag and queried them on the sealed battery and they said it didn't matter.
Oh well. Either way I guess as long as it has a tube like Cool1 says, that should be enough.
Not trying to start an argument, just stating what I have been told.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 07:55
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| Sigmeister wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 15:56 |
| Cool1 wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 15:04 |
| Sigmeister wrote on Mon, 07 June 2004 13:41 |
It does have to be sealed and vented to the outside,
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The RTA does not specify that the box has to be sealed.
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The ADR rules do however state that it must be sealed and vented I rag and queried them on the sealed battery and they said it didn't matter.
Oh well. Either way I guess as long as it has a tube like Cool1 says, that should be enough.
Not trying to start an argument, just stating what I have been told.
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I'm always in for an argument  but seriously being an auto tech who does battery relocations every week, I need to know this shit.
Also the battery box needs to be made from a plastic specified by the RTA.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:03
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im not heaps worried about the legalities cause my car is FAR from legal. i just dont really want toxic fumes in the boot, petrol fumes from the surge tank is plenty.
Cool1, do you run the wire straight to the starter then the other power wires from that or the altenator? do you use a fuse? i would think you would need a rather large fuse to handle the current draw of the starter motor.
for the wire i was planning on using welders earthing cable. thick wire with thick insulation. pricy but would have minimal voltage drop.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:10
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We run 2 cables from the battery. 1 directly to the start and then linked from the starter to the alternator.
The second cable goes to a distribution block for everything else.
We use 2 large fuses right near the battery. I believe the fuse on the starter cable is a sand filled (300A?) ceramic type 
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:21
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what wire and fuse holder do you use? who sells these fuses?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 11:29
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The cable we use is kind of like the welding cable you spoke of, about $14 a meter.
The fuse holders and fuses are the kind used in factory machinery. I'm not sure where we get them, but give a few places that deal with that shit a call.
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
February 2003
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 21:12
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Those fuses look exactly like the ones we use. Just remember that the starter can and will draw a whole shit load of current, 150-200A easy.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 22:39
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Umm, starters drawing 150-200A on an 8awg cable i dont believe.
All the starters ive seen (admittedly mostly 4A and some 3S) are all run off the loose packed equivalent of 8awg, which has a theoretical upper load limit of 60A.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 22:55
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Well if you dont mind, can you get an amp meter and put it in line with your starter, aim a video camera at the amp meter and then start your car?
I would really love to see your 210% efficient starter start your car.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:02
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Lets go for a simpler method. Ill put a 60A fuse in my starter line and run it off that. Or maybe thats what several other people have done without any issue.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:27
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Ok try the 60A fuse. If it takes 25A to just engage the solenoid, well you work it out.
Just make sure you put the fuse between the battery and the starter motor, not the solenoid.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:29
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A starter motor will draw 150-200 amps easy, but only till the motor gets up to speed, for a second or two at the most.
The theoretical load limit of 60A is a continuous load limit. All electrical motors will draw 500-700% their CONTINUOUS rated current, and a starter motor is exactly that, a motor.
If you were to start your car and keep the starter motor turning, (provided the car didnt start) the current draw would spike for an instant and then flatline out at a much more realistic value (ie. around odd 40 Amps)
I believe car companies use small wire to keep costs down. It would be adviseable to use cable that is as large as possible to the starter, especially if the battery is in the boot. And if the battery is in the boot, run a positive and a negative to the battery, dont just earth the battery in the boot and use the chassis as a return, this is a no-no.
The HRC fuses are a good idea, put the fuse as close to the power source as possible. There is a place over here in WA called Alanco that sells automotive (12V) HRC fuses.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:32
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Im interested as to why not a Chassis return, i was under the impression that this was how they were all done.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:39
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So have you fitted this 60A fuse yet?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:44
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Mon, 07 June 2004 23:49
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I cant see it.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:00
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| gabe wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 09:29 |
And if the battery is in the boot, run a positive and a negative to the battery, dont just earth the battery in the boot and use the chassis as a return, this is a no-no.
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Can I ask why? I'm using a positive cable only (dunno what gauge but it's the thickest cable I could find) and a chassis return. It's been like this for over a year and I haven't had any problems yet. The starter motor has never struggled to turn the engine over that's for sure.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:10
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This is how they are all done.......but its not right.
Electrolysis is a chemical reaction that takes place between two dissimilar metals, with current flow between them.
In our case, there is a point at the front of the car (earth point), and a point at the rear (earth point). There is current flow between these two points. As the electrons move along the chassis (always the same route, the path of least resistance), each electron is replaced with another from the battery.
As the electrons move between the dissimilar metals, some of the sacrificial metal (more positive of the two), actually travels to the less positive of the two. In effect one metal gets eaten away (corrodes).
Ive seen 316 stainless steel turn to swiss cheese in a matter of hours with only a 1.5 Volt battery and shit all current passing through it. Thats stainless steel too.....
The same thing happens on your positive battery post. You have a lead post and a brass clamp, you will notice a buildup of furry crap all over the post, this is actually the clamp getting eaten away.
A mate who lives near the beach (and does a lot of beach driving) had a 'line' of corrosion under his landcruiser from the rear earth point to the front earth point. The salt water (due to its high conductive nature) made this situation worse.
Its why aluminum boats are coated in a layer of zinc, to protect the boat, the zinc (being the sacrificial metal in this instance) will corrode first.
I realise most dont do it this way but having seen many instances of metal corroding under this condition, I wasnt taking any chances.......plus I got the cable for free.....
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:12
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And I realise too that its not actually the electron that flows, its the charge only, but for the purposes of an easy explanation.......
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:20
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 10:00 |
| gabe wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 09:29 |
And if the battery is in the boot, run a positive and a negative to the battery, dont just earth the battery in the boot and use the chassis as a return, this is a no-no.
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Can I ask why? I'm using a positive cable only (dunno what gauge but it's the thickest cable I could find) and a chassis return. It's been like this for over a year and I haven't had any problems yet. The starter motor has never struggled to turn the engine over that's for sure.
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Yes manufactures have done this since the beginning of cars on the road ?
There are only a few exceptions to this i have seen .
Lotus elise
Ferrari f360
Honda Nsx
Audi a6
All Alloy bodied car ? which Toyota has a alloy body ?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 00:22
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 08:00 |
Can I ask why? I'm using a positive cable only (dunno what gauge but it's the thickest cable I could find) and a chassis return. It's been like this for over a year and I haven't had any problems yet. The starter motor has never struggled to turn the engine over that's for sure.
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Not saying you will have problems in the short term but in the long run, you never know. If your going to keep your car for say 10 years, whats 60 dollars worth of cable and a few extra lugs........? Pails into insignificance really.......
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 01:31
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Looking at takai car
, its not the " whats 60 dollars worth of cable and a few extra lugs........? Pails into insignificance really....... "
Think of the weight he will not be saving .
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 03:58
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LOL, thats one naked AE86 ...
reason you would want to use a negative cable back to battery is that you prefer not to rely on the conductivity of spot welds to transfer the current..
thinka botu it.. the only metal to metal contact between panels is the spot welds, and although they are usually good, over time (and with corrosion) the conductivity can decrease... granted it's not really a major issue, but having an earth lead will give you peace of mind...
fwiw, if battery is in the front, it is DIRECTLY connected to starter motor via the block.... cable from bat goes to chassis and engine block... which also goes to alternator..
having an earth lead may also reduce the voltage drop between alternator and battery, so the alt will last a little longer and provide a little more grunt..
Norbie, what voltage do you see at the alternator post, and what do you see at the battery when running?
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:27
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I've found this all very interesting as i've got my battery in the boot and using the chassie in the rear as the earth point.
So you are suggesting an earth lead to the block/front of chassie somewhere?
Also, should you have 2 earth leads from the battery, one in the rear and one in the front of the car? or just the 1 up front?
Thanks
Joel
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:39
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i'm suggesting it, but if you are not gettigna voltage drop between the motor and negative battery terminal by using the chassis as a return for ground, then you probably have little to gain.
i'm a fan of overkill tho and YMMV, but measure the voltage drops before doign anything drastic
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:43
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2 earth leads! 1 at the back and 1 to the front.
I agree with Gabe, having just the earth strap connected at the back of the car will cause a large voltage potential between the front and back of the chassis. Voltage potential in any kind of metals causes corrosion, never a good thing to happen in a car you have just spend loads of money on.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:49
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Yup overkill is a good thing
Next time i'm doing some work and have the carpet or seat out i'll run another earth lead up to the front.
Anywhere in particular best to bolt it to?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:49
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 15:39 |
i'm suggesting it, but if you are not gettigna voltage drop between the motor and negative battery terminal by using the chassis as a return for ground, then you probably have little to gain.
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The best way to measure voltage drop or a voltage potential is to get a volt meter with long test leads, put one lead on the negative terminal of the battery and the other lead on the engine block, then crank the starter. The volt meter will display a voltage as you first crank the starter, this is the voltage potential that will cause you trouble.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:50
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| TurboRA28 wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 15:49 |
Anywhere in particular best to bolt it to?
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Under the bolt that holds the engine mount on the block.
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:55
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very interesting reading (especially about the corrosion thing). I have always been of the impression that for electrolysis to happen, submersion is required.
Having said that - I use 50mm sq (from memory) weld flex (as it is double insulated). I also did not bother to run an earth to the block form the battery, just grounded to the chassis.
My car has rusted quite badly in some areas (I am now going to buy another length of weld flex to earth directly to the block).
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 05:59
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Who said anything about earthing through the panels?? I have my battery earthed to a nice solid mounting point (the big-arse bolt for the rear seat belt) which is attached to a fairly chunky part of the car's frame. I'd be surprised if there was any significant voltage drop compared to the pissweak earth cables found in most standard cars.
I measured the voltage at the battery once, I can't remember what it was exactly but it was quite healthy, around 14.5 volts.
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 06:14
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| Cool1 wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 07:12 |
Those fuses look exactly like the ones we use. Just remember that the starter can and will draw a whole shit load of current, 150-200A easy.
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i was at work when i realised the error in my reply
i was thinking to the disto block, not to the starter motor(those suckers can and do draw a fuck load of current)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: battery relocation
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Tue, 08 June 2004 06:22
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 08 June 2004 15:59 |
Who said anything about earthing through the panels?? I have my battery earthed to a nice solid mounting point (the big-arse bolt for the rear seat belt) which is attached to a fairly chunky part of the car's frame. I'd be surprised if there was any significant voltage drop compared to the pissweak earth cables found in most standard cars.
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ahh, my bad Norbie, i meant the 'panels' which comrpise the frame and structure of the car, not the bolt on panels.. the bolt on panels are often nearly electrically insulated from the body (which is not so good for panel earthing lights)
Cya, Stewart
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