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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2003
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AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 02:32
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What is the difference between the AE71 (sedan) and AUS spec AE86. I know they both have the 4AC but do they share the same brakes, suspension, diff and floor pan? How dose AE71 handle compared to the AE86 with the same type of mods? (springs, shocks, camber and sway bars)
Any help would be good
Thanks Will
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 07:19
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most parts are interchangable so pretty much anything you can do to an ae86 you can do to the ae71. however on some the mounts on the bottom of the strut are SLIGHTLY wider but can be filed out to fit otherwise they are the same.
they arent as stiff as an ae86 due to the extra doors so handling is differnt, but i wouldnt say that much different. 
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 07:55
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the diff is different.
THe Aus spec AE86 uses an S type, whereas the AE71 uses a borg warner (bog warmer). The diff ratio of the AE71 is also 4.1:1.
Otherwise pretty much everything is the same. Except that an AE71 is about 1/10th the price of an AE86
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 08:45
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didnt the AE71 also have a leaf spring rear end?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 09:48
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no
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 10:20
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...and who told you the xE7x wasn't as stiff ey???
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 15 June 2004 10:39
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A bit off topic since you want info on the sedan, but interestingly, the AE71 panelvan (and maybe the wagon too) are all japanese, with an 'S' series diff (no bog-warmer ), sprinter front struts & discs, and a 3" one piece tailshaft. But unfortunately they have a leaf sprung rear end.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 16 June 2004 02:56
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Thanks for all the help
looks like id put a T18 T series diff and get a LSD from japan.
So will the sprinter struts bolt in or will i have to change control arms?
Looks like the next project is a AE71
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 16 June 2004 06:41
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they arent as stiff as an ae86 due to the extra doors so handling is differnt,
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one word.... BULLSHIT
handling is different, its better, the weight distribution over the rear is more even, it stops the twitchy flick out feeling the sprinter gives, in fact i feel more comfortable sideways in the KE than i ever felt in my AE85 rally car or any of the other 3 Sprinter/Levins ive owned.
the struts will bolt up but you will have to change the sterring arms, a better option is to change the control arms as well cause the KE ball joints are crap.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 16 June 2004 07:37
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looks like id put a T18 T series diff and get a LSD from japan
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dude are you fucking insane?
FOr the price that will cost you, you could buy an MS23 (corona mrk2) live axle F series, get the mounts welded on, and buy yourself a second hand MA61 LSD.....
I've have proven that the T series diff is NO MATCH for sprited driving and any 4A motor. 8 runs down WSID on a beautiful 4.1:1 centre makes one noisy centre.
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 16 June 2004 08:54
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2 years, lots of drifting, LOTS of cirle work, LOTS of stand stills, lots of high rpm clutch popping, NEVER broken a T series.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 03:24
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Or just lock the stock diff and buy a few sets of axles, cheap and lots of fun. Anyone had an AE86 with a locker?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 04:36
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i have
S series is weak as piss.
why not get t18 rear end and then lock that
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 04:56
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I've run an AE86 S-series locked. Only problem I have had is the centre unwelding itself, and that is purely my own fault. They are noisy and a hassle, but I haven't broken anything after 5 serious drift meets.
T-series would be stronger, but for a locker, do you need it?
Maybe I'm just lucky.
Hen
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 06:22
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Ive never broken a T series either, worn them out over a lengthy period of time Yes .. maybe i havent been driving hard enough
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 07:07
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yeah i havent broken one yet either... but i have worn them out VERY quickly.... eight 5000rpm plus hard launches with sticky-as tyres does the trick.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 10:19
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| IRA11Y wrote on Wed, 16 June 2004 16:41 |
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they arent as stiff as an ae86 due to the extra doors so handling is differnt,
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one word.... BULLSHIT
handling is different, its better, the weight distribution over the rear is more even, it stops the twitchy flick out feeling the sprinter gives, in fact i feel more comfortable sideways in the KE than i ever felt in my AE85 rally car or any of the other 3 Sprinter/Levins ive owned.
the struts will bolt up but you will have to change the sterring arms, a better option is to change the control arms as well cause the KE ball joints are crap.
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i never said they handle worse than an ae86, i just said they handle different. and if the chasis on them are almost identical, what alters the characteristics in their handling? i would have thought the body would have.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 10:42
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I've twisted & broken a few T series axles 
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 17 June 2004 11:37
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and if the chasis on them are almost identical, what alters the characteristics in their handling? i would have thought the body would have.
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the weight distribution over the rear is more even, it stops the twitchy flick out feeling the sprinter gives,
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Fri, 18 June 2004 06:54
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just a quick thought, as i am still slithlghtly pissed after my last exam ever (and as an AE86 owner)
all other things beign exual, wouldnt you expect the AE71 to be stiffer? sure it has twice as many doors, but the sprinter has two doors that are twice as long, so without the two gigantic "holes" in either side of the body, wouldnt this at the very worst even it out?
too bad they are so damn ugly (no offence all you guys who won them)
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Mon, 21 June 2004 03:21
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Dam they are ugly but why pay an extra $3000+ just so it looks cool.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Mon, 21 June 2004 03:26
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1 word. Homologation.
The AE71s never came with a 4AGE, just the 4AC. The AE86 however was homologated with a 4AGE.
Thats one of the big reasons i went with the Sprinter.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Mon, 21 June 2004 04:33
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Homogolation - WTF?!?!?!
Dude - why does that make a difference to you? It fits just as easily into an AE71 as it does an AE86
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Mon, 21 June 2004 05:05
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actually homologation will only apply if you intend to compete in the whole series and gain points in a specific class, there are plenty of other classes you can still compete in without homologation.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 06:58
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one word.... BULLSHIT
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Mick, you have such a way with word 
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EDIT: Homologation isnt just about how an engine fits in, its about using it for rally. For any new rally car homologation requires about 500 similarly roadspeced cars to be produced and sold. For example the GroupA GT4 is the homologation edition of the Rally GT4. One of the things in homologation is the engine model and head.
Now an AE71 came with a 4A-C and was never sold with a 4AGE (to my knowledge) and therefore has no homologation papers for a GE. The AE86 definately came with a 4AGE (as we know) and therefore the homologation papers exist for a 4AGE powered AE86. Wheras there must be 500+ 4AGE AE71s sold for it to be homologated with that engine.
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Hope you have a CAMS manual ready...
Go to Group 3C
goto Clause 1.5
it goes Blah blah blah....Which CAMS in its sole discretion may recognise irrespective of Numberproduced or of its origin,and subject to the model being deemed by CAMS to bewithin the spirit of the definition of a mass produced vehicle
From what I read here and research I have done, I personally got CAMS to approve The FX-GT Corolla, not FX-GT Levin, and subsequencely any aus spec, AE101 or 102 will be able to run a 20V on these grounds, ie proved that they a) did exist, b)share more than just an engine c)everything from an Homologated model does swap over.... and thinking of it, I would be surprised if Japan did have a 4AGE AE71, just that they sold SFA of them so not many people knew or know of them... It took 18 Month to find a AE101 FX-GT 'rolla, due to this fact... but the main part to remember is all you have to do is prove that the car is within the spirit of the definition of a mass produced which is not too hard, just a lot of time and photo's.
PS sorry for the Hijake guys.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 12:36
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So far as i know there was never any 4AGE AE71 and therefore it cannot even be homologated in a "small numbers" CAMS program.
I investigated this fully and enquired lots as i was going to use an AE71 for rally about 5 years ago. Eventually gave up on it when we bought our KE30. Not much has changed in the CAMS low volume homologation since then, and checking my manual shows that what has changed is irrevalent to this conversion.
This time i bit the bullet and bought a sprinter (cheap albeit) to use for homologated tarmac rally events.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 17:00
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For a Corolla rally car, you could probably run any Toyota 4cyl engine you want, as long as its a relatively conventional setup. And they would just put you in a class according to the engine capasity.
Even if they are more strict than that, I know you can use a 2T-G in a KE20 rally car, even though the 2T-G never cam in a KE20, only in the KE25/TE27 shape. So it would be rediculus for them not to let you run a 4A-GE in a AE71.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 21:59
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This time i bit the bullet and bought a sprinter (cheap albeit) to use for homologated tarmac rally events.
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Exactly what format are you looking to race in? there are very few tarmac only events, even rallycross is a mixture of sealed and unsealed. the only full tarmac sessions are usually a super special stage for spectators.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 22:28
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just re reading some of the posts and i was thinking about what Johnny posted and went and read the cams manual again, then thought some more about this...
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If there is any intention in using it for rally or any other kinds of motorsport which require homologation the AE71 is basically useless.
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and i dont think it would be that hard to get homologation for the 4AGE.. you could do it on the basis of it having a 4A block which is compatible with the 4AGE and ask for special consideration on the head change "shrugs" worth a try .. if i do bother to get serious past a few hillclimbs and stuff in the next 12 months ill look into it some more.
but basically you could go under 3.2 section 3 (xxix) for normally aspirated two wheel drive vehicles, the model of witch was manufactured prior to 1 JAN 1986, freedom will be granted in relation to..
a Carburettors and injections systems ( however the addition of forced induction is not permitted)
b inlet manifolds
c etc etc
they do mention no change to camshafts but i still think you could get an allowance for it somehow.. if you really wanted to
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Tue, 22 June 2004 22:42
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And another thing.... hahahaha
based on Johnnys methods it would be exxtremely easy to prove the commonality of the AE86 and AE70 chasis and components to get homologation too
ok ill stop now
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 00:14
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True, the commonality of the chassis would be the way to go, and if you can prove that you are laughing.
As for the camshafts it is not free to go from SOHC to DOHC. Sorry.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 00:21
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youre right the head is an issue but if you prove the chassis are similar they will easily let you run the twincam .. AE86 has 4age homolgation
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 00:22
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| Jonny2TG wrote on Wed, 23 June 2004 03:00 |
Even if they are more strict than that, I know you can use a 2T-G in a KE20 rally car, even though the 2T-G never cam in a KE20, only in the KE25/TE27 shape. So it would be rediculus for them not to let you run a 4A-GE in a AE71.
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So many posts, so little time. The 2T-G is possible in a KE20 due to the replica ruling afaik. Same as the AUS AE86 with a 4AGE, its considered a replica of the JDM AE86. THerefore a 2T-G KE20 is considred a replica of the TE27 which had homologation.
I just re read the rules on the replicas and it seems they have loosened up on choice of chassis on this. Like the whole Perana/Capri thing. So that is one possible angle of attack.
As for the road rallies, there are still a few of them, namely East Coast, Winter, Classic (which the AE86 will be eligible for next year) and the infamous Targa Tas. I intend on doing all of these at least once in my lifetime.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 01:28
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So far as i know there was never any 4AGE AE71 and therefore it cannot even be homologated in a "small numbers" CAMS program.
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Sorry but this is not what I'm on about, all you have to do is argue the point that everything going into car A which is homologated will be a direct fit to car B and reason why you want to do this ie AE86 now becoming scarce has 4A block, etc.. Your still using stock toyota Items which are mass produced on a mass produced vehicle, which is in the spirit of being a Massed Produced vehicle, besides where is there any Homologation for an AE71? to my Knowlegde, No.
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AE71 for rally about 5 years ago
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Well there's a problem, Andy Clark was in charge then and he was a bit tight in the lower bowel area. Now there is some young blood involved, Campbell Andrea, and he has very good Ideas for the sport, and I have found him to have a very broad mind which is great for the sport and he is very open to these kind of ideas, with the respect that the sport does need to move forward but with respect to safety and cost. ATM They're trying to keep the sport competitive at reasonable cost with the best safety possible, but without the hassles of going down the Grp G era again... If they surcumber IP rules that's they're best possible way to broaden the sport in my opinion, but to get ARComm to realise this Campbell is working over time.... Any Car conversion I've seen in IP racing has no reasons why that car couldn't be engineered and street driven.
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you could do it on the basis of it having a 4A block which is compatible with the 4AGE and ask for special consideration on the head change
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again another point mention, any I did throw that at them, what are the differences between the homologated AE101 corolla 4AFE block and a homologated AE101 Levin Block? Of course many here would be able to Tell me, and I know, but the rules does allow me to use the Levin block in a Corolla, so why shouldn't I be allowed to use the internal + head etc.... Though Bill Sherwood would still want the FE head . Also the AE71 was never a homologated model, which means it has no specs to go off really and what stops you sticking the 4AGE in one and driving it on the street... Now there has to be over 200 examples running around (the current number of homologation it's not 500) and none need an engine cert.
In all, The report I submitted to CAMS has really given the system a good shake up, and they are now considering a major rule change, especially after talking to a few ARC F16 crews (Denise Collins, Lee Peterson etc) . They have been pushing for similar rules since day one, They all really don't give a crap as long as the engine is a 1600cc from the same manufactuer, and I'm sure that many out there are also of the same opinion, regardless of what class they run. The report does stipulate that too, so may be we will get our cream for once....
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 01:35
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Meanwhile a friend got his acceptance letter for an AE86 only 4 days after he was rear ended by a truck on the highway coming back from a track day.
No AE86 this year, but in the coming years....
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 01:43
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That seems promising stuff Johnny, i guess its really down to if anyones prepared to financialy back the AE71 into the motorsport arena and push the homologation now based on that info.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 01:53
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Aye, i would be interested in offorading a AE71 4AGE, simply because of all the commonality with my AE86 and the cheaper panel/shell price. Quite enticing.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 05:06
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It's a simple formula... They want more youth, they just need to give the youth what they want... ie freedom.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 07:08
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Hnmm wonder if im still eligiable in the youth category LOL
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 07:24
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heehee.... ill do it! 
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 08:23
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takai, The KE20 is not the same shape as the TE27, that is my point. A 2T-G didn't ever come in a KE20 or TE21 as far as I know. The 2T-G came in a TE27 (they call it a coupe, KE20 is sedan). And its on this basis that you could also put a 4A-GE in a AE71 if they where both made in the same year, and one is the coupe version of the other. (Not sure of that)
For offroad rally I don't think you need to worry about any of this. Just build whatever car you want, as long as its got a Toyota 4cyl engine, and they will put you in a class acording to capasity.
For Targa Tasmania, they are not just interested in new cars. But they are mainly interested in classics. Factory GT/sports cars. The AE71 is not this. Maybe they would accept a TE71 Corolla GT sedan if you told them it was fully imported from Japan etc, and had all the original stuff. The sedan GT had a 2T-GEU the same as the TE71 Levin/Trueno Liftback/Hardtop/Coupe.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Wed, 23 June 2004 11:43
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Yeah, the C pillars are a different shape etc. I had wanted a TE27 for ages. But thats another matter entirely.
Sounds like some good things are on the way for Homologation, and my buying an AE86 for homologation is relatively irrelavent. But thats ok, i got it at a bargain, and i can deal with it
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Thu, 24 June 2004 00:44
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Hnmm wonder if im still eligiable in the youth category LOL
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We'll just chuck a Nappy and bib on you, and just say your 'well developed' for your age.
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For offroad rally I don't think you need to worry about any of this. Just build whatever car you want, as long as its got a Toyota 4cyl engine, and they will put you in a class acording to capasity.
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Nope, will need to use the same block, as per the current rules.
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Sounds like some good things are on the way for Homologation, and my buying an AE86 for homologation is relatively irrelavent. But thats ok, i got it at a bargain, and i can deal with it
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Well you can also take advantage of the Pre-'86 rules too, would love the run a 4AGE with 7A crank, just to give it that little bit more torque....
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Fri, 25 June 2004 11:27
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Why bother to build up a Targa rally AE71 when it probably cost more to enter then the price of a good stock AE86!!! Cant wait for a few years when you will be able to race a AE86 in the Classic Adelaide.
AE86 + Hills = lots of fun
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Fri, 25 June 2004 11:59
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uhmm you do know theres a standardised cost to enter Targa dont you?
it doesent depend on what type of car you enter.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Fri, 25 June 2004 13:58
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Its still more to enter in Classic Adelaide than my 86 stock shell cost. Same for the East Coast Rally.
Ending cost will be about the total cost of the three.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Fri, 25 June 2004 23:53
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seriously if your that worried about the cost of entering events, i hate to think how upset your going to be after a full season of rallying when you look back at the accumulated cost.
Yes Targa is not cheap ( between 3 and 6K entry fee ), but you get to drive on some of the best tarmac roads in the country. Its an internationaly recognised event .. what do you expect?
even an AMSAG event is $440 for an entry fee.
maybe you should talk to Ben or Johnny about what there budgets are for a season. Actually I thi8nk ben would just about cry if he calculated all the costs hahaha hmm having to buy a new tow car this year has hurt him a bit too
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: AE71 - AE86 DIFFERENCE
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Sat, 26 June 2004 00:58
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Yeah, ive done rally before. I was making a somewhat nonsensical point to aeke. Stupid posting at midnight after being out.
Costs in rally and track events are quite large. Track even more so than rally.
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