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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sun, 08 September 2002 01:22
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I'm sure someone once mentioned that it wouldn't be hard to convert a Mk2 Supra to 5-stud with the use of hubs from a Crown or something like that. Was it someone here? I'm thinking about doing this, but I need details! 
5x4.5" wheels are easy to find in the correct offset, but everything in 4x4.5" is completely wrong for a Mk2. 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sun, 08 September 2002 04:07
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haha... good f#*$en luck dude! fronts are easy, the rears, well, good f#*$en luck!!
FRONT: swap in crown MS112 hubs. bearings should be the same. use the DBA MS112 disc and the rim should be in the same position, and you can use your original calipers and mounts. FYI MA70 300mm front rotors will go over (rather than under) the MS112 hubs, and should locate (with minor machining) the disc rim in the original position. then you can pick a nice 4pot caliper, make a caliper mount and off you go. requires 16" wheel w/ offset of about +16mm.
REAR: HAHAHahah hehe...oh dear. unless you want to add copius amounts of weld material to the existin rear hub in order to redrill it to 5 x 4.5" (not advisable), youre up for some SERIOUS custom spline/shaft/hub work. it MAY be possible to mate the hub flange off the MA70 to the spline/shaft of the MA61, but i woulnt be counting on it. its a serious shitter trying to do anything to the back. if youve got a solution, please let me know!
ANYWAY.... please tell me where you can get wheels in 5 x 4.5" in the right offset!? im trying to locate some in in 16". As far as ive been able to figure so far, the options are only 4wd type wheels, 2pc 'chev truck' style wheels, or getting some 16" ford steelies modified.
cheers
ed
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sun, 08 September 2002 07:53
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Like Ed said, fronts are easy. Hubs off an MS112 should bolt straight up. However, I hear wheels in that offset are about as common as rocking horse shit. You could use hubs from some other 5 stud vehicle like a Hilux, Hiace, or possibly even a Nissan 240-280C.
Looks like you are up for custom hubs at the rear.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sun, 08 September 2002 08:04
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Well this sucks then doesn't it.
I'm trying to find a way to get big rims without having to fork out for custom Simmons or something equally expensive. Doesn't look like it's going to happen though!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Mon, 09 September 2002 15:18
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After speaking to a few people, I was going to do this too. I've decided I'd wait until I was going to upgrade the brakes as well, then I could warrant the expense of custom hubs for the rear. You reckon it'd be easy to find wheels in what offset and stud pattern? Thats reassuring! 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 04:20
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This is just a guess based on toyota interchaneability, but would the rear hubs from an MS123 crown (independent trailing arm suspension) do the job? The front hubs might go as well. For a bit more detail on the ms-123 stuff, the classicrown website shold have someone who knows.
As a different suggestion, talk to castlemain rod shop, or rod tech here in adelaide for a professional modification and re-drilling of the existing hubs. A friend of mine had a set of cortina rear axles modded to run ford 5 stud pattern by rod tech and it was a quality job.
Sean
PS-I have an ms123 manual and could maybe look some stuff up for you. What are the critical dimensions?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 10:47
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MS123 fit purfectly...
sorry i didnt post the details. i only figured out the interchangability about a week ago, and wanted to secure a car, and strip the bits before i announced it to the world, and shot myself in the foot
FYI: it is only the Series I MS123 Crown Royal that have the IRS trailing link design. it would seem the whole rear arm assembly is interchangeable, which is a good thing as the hubs themselves WILL NOT pull out using hand tools at the wreckers... you gotta take the lot!
further to this, it would appear that earlier Ford XD-XF LTD wheels have the same offset (and correct 5 x 4.5" PCD) to suit, and you can get a few wheels from places like speedy:
http://www.speedywheels.com.au/ZoomWheels/Holotype -R.htm
its a miracle that this goes to gether so easily really, and that n-one has done this before. like i said in an earlier post, fronts are easy too, and BOTH MS112 and MS123 front hubs will work. use these hubs with a 300mm mkiii rotor, and youre in easy brake-upgrade-ville.
i'm now the happy owner of the full hubset and rear end off a MS123, and ill keep you guys updated as to the brake mod progress...
cheers
ed
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I supported Toymods
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Registered:
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 Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 10:51
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Cool! Too easy! I didn't even think of MS123.....I thought they were double wishbone.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:03
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oh, and btw sean...
any chance of scanning and emailing me a diagram of the rear susp assembly out of that ms123 manual?? would be great for an article im writing on the conversion
cheers
ed
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:11
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So you are saying the whole rear assembly will fit??? I may be purchasing a Celica XX on the weekend with a T-series rear-end which will eventually need a F-series...which would require plonking an entire rear sub-frame in
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:13
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GT, the series II MS123 (1983-86 i think) runs double wishbone.
its the series I MS123 (1982-83 ??) that runs the trailing IRS
cheers
ed
(my back REALLY hurts...bloody breaker bar, under a car in the rubble of old wheel nuts and gravel, for 5 hours. and only then did i realise that the hub wasnt gonna come out)
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:18
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'frank' (if that is your real name)
i cant confirm that the ms123 SI is dimensionally identical 'yet'. however, visually, they are the same: same mounts, same fittings, etc etc. i imagine they are identical, but cant confirm it yet. will update in a few days.
but, be aware, ms123 runs f series 292 NON lsd . plus it uses a different diff carrier assembly. it is only the arms themselves which appear the same.
cheers
ed
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:24
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Great work Ed, I look forward to hearing the results of your experiment!
BTW how hard is it to find these MS123 things? Are they rare?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:33
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Hmmm, looks like i'll be doing a little bit of mixing and matching. I await the findings of your experiments...
And no...Frank isn't my name
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 11:46
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bloody hell ed get inside and wash up for dinner you have grease all over you!
and where the hell is my little console thingy, u spent 5 hours with a breaker bar and still couldnt get it out jeebus cripes!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 12:00
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Well there was the issue of the direction of rotation Really, it can be a real bitch sometimes... little miscalculation in the rotation... I am sure Ed will explain Rob D'oh, if this forum had a few more ladies I am sure Ed would be offered a few back rubs for lying 5 hours on the gravel under the car in the hot sun... Poor guy... (Well, i am sure there'll be offers nevertheless and I am sure Ed might want to nicely turn them down ;p But then again... Anyways, awesome work Ed!!!
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 13:09
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ok, quick story to explain why things took a total of 5 hours instead of 4....
you know when youre under a car, and left n right can get kinda confused: well imagine holding a breaker bar on a nut, and going 'heave ho, move you f ucker'... when *click*, she moves a little. ok, so you get enthusiastic, but she doesnt budge any more. so you try more prying, wd40, hammering etc, and then you suddenly realise youre tightening the bloody thing, and that *click* probably just took the torque to over 200ft/lbs...
and 'then' you notice youve also turned the nut ot a bit... F U C K
soo... add one extra hour of prying, hammering, swearing, kicking and custom tool fabriction from an old roofrack... and *just* as the guy kicks us out as they close, she goes *click* in the correct direction.... gotta go back tomorrow now... 1 BOLT!! dammit
cheers ed
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 12 September 2002 13:33
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norbie... not sure how rare...first time ive really looked for one, and found it by accident
series one production only from 1983-85...
details here:
http://www.geocities.com/toyota_crown/ms123s1.html
cheers
ed
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Fri, 13 September 2002 13:53
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I've seen quite a few in the mildura area, donno about parts tho! If this works i say we put in for a slab to give to ed!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Fri, 13 September 2002 22:11
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Ed, I'll have a look at the manual over the weekend. From what you said about mkIII discs to 123 hubs-does that mean I can put mk III discs on the ms123 carrier assembly (ie carrier, disc, caliper, hub) I have on the front of the 72 crown? What caliper to use-MKIII as well.
Cheers
Sean
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 14 September 2002 01:06
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In case you guys wanted to go fulsik on a rear brake conversion, Celica GT4 rotors have a 170 mm internal drum handbrake (MS112-123, MA61 have a 167 mm). Merc 500SEL rear rotors have a 165 mm internal drum handbrake so you you would need to get the drum shoes radius ground.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 14 September 2002 07:03
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arggh
- F U C K -
ok, bad news # 1:
the ms112 / ms123 front hubs DO NOT FIT onto the ma61 hub spindle (easily, if at all). the ms123/112 inboard/outboard spindle bearing race dia's are 35mm and 22mm respectively. the ma61 corresponding dimensions are ~32mm and ~19mm respectively.
now that wouldnt be a drama if you could simply press a set of ma61 bearings into the ms123/112 hubs. BUT YOU CANT!! Do'h!! the outside bearing diameter of the stock ma61 bearings is ~ 59.1mm and ~45.3mm respectively, compare to the ms123/112's which are 60mm and 46mm respectively. f uck. the ma61 bearing just rattle around insode the ms123/112 hubs.
SO...
either, ive got to find a 5 stud hub which already sits
on a spindle of 32/19mm dimensions, or i have to find a hub who's internal machined bearing race is 59.1/45.3mm DO'H.
OR (and i have NO IDEA about this one)...
swap a ms123/112 spindle (*just the spindle*) out of its susension component (dbl wishbone), and press it into the ma61 strut, replacing the ma61 stock spindle. anyone have a clue? the dia of the spindle where it enters its respective suspension component is the same, so it could be possible. anyone know if you can press spindles in and out??
OR
thridly, shim the ms123/112 hub and run ma61 bearings, or shim the ma61 spindle, and run ms123/112 bearings. YEASH!!
OR
find/make bearings to fit
bad news # 2:
the trailing arm assembly of the ms123 is NOT interchangeable with the trailing arm of the ma61. same style, but TOTALLY different in dimensions.
GOOD news # 1:
the rear wheel bearing kits for the ma61 and ms123 have the SAME PART NUMBER... wohoo!! plus they are dimensionally similar externally...which (probably) means that if you press the axle/hub out of the ms123 arm, the axle/spline will be the same as the ma61, which means you can 'probably' just press them into the ma61 trailing arm, with ZERO bearing problems...heres hoping...
cheers
ed
[Updated on: Sat, 14 September 2002 12:24]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sun, 15 September 2002 08:39
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Nice long post...when you find out...tell me! At last I've finally gone and bought a car to f#*$ around with!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Mon, 16 September 2002 00:58
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why not take the Supra spindle and the crown hub to a bearing shop, they have a bazillion different sized bearings and might have one that fits and makes the the difference.
I've seen 5-stud hubs on a MA61, silver-grey Supra with some nice 5 spoke rims, like Azev or something like that. Don't know if it had any engine swap, was very clean, no rust. Stainless muffler, no rice.
Don't give up, it can be done.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Tue, 17 September 2002 09:03
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u sure they were hubs and not adaptors? do u know the guy with the car?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Tue, 17 September 2002 11:30
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you think id be stuffing around this much without first checking a bearing catalogue  i think not.
ok, so the current story is:
for the REAR, the ms123 hubs 'should' fit into the ma61 trailing arms a-ok. they run the same bearings, splines are the same, and theyre dimensionally identical (from what ive measured so far). there is a slight 'issue' regarding having the hubs/stubs pressed out of the trailing arm as it requires a 20-30ton hyraulic press, but other than that...too easy.
the FRONTS are proving a real bitch. ms112/123 hubs will ONLY fit onto the ma61 spindles using the ms112/123 bearing kit, and then making a sleeve/shim to have pressed onto the ma61 spindle to make up the difference.
the other option resides in the use of an entirely different hub which uses the same bearings as the ma61, and thus requires no modification. after a data dump of the repco database, and cross referencing this with skf bearing data, i think ive found such a hub. its going to be a rare one to find, so excuse me if i wait till i find one myself before announcing it to the world 
anyway...ill let you all know once i get it rolling.
cheers
ed
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Boston
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 19 September 2002 10:47
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Greetings from Boston!
For the front, I looked at the early 80's Mitsubishi Starion
(not sure if it was a different name in Australia).
It's a 5 lug with arotor hat. I checked with a local machine
shop that had a bearing catalog that could fit a correct
bearing for the MK2.
That said, I believe there should be something available
to retrofit the ms123 front hubs to the MK2. If not, then
having a machine shop custom machine a bearing race might
be a second option. I can help here if necessary.
If the rear ms123 spindles have the same dimension, that
would be excellent news.
What size is the rear e-brake diameter?
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Thu, 19 September 2002 13:32
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mate, check your email
e-brake? as in emergency brake? aka handbrake? ie: the internal rear drum?? = 167mm
ladies and gents. found the hub, bearings fit, look f ucking sweet as. 5 stud here we come. will announce the lucky model number once i find one more
cheers
ed
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Fri, 20 September 2002 05:47
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Ed,
Kudos once again for the research mate Beers on me! I think you can do the honours now
Cheers
Nishad
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Fri, 20 September 2002 14:48
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Stefan , the reason the guys are looking to go 5 stud is that the engineers seem to be a little disconcerted by 4 studs and twin turbo engines in place of the slug 5M  . The added bonus is the Ford stud pattern and the plethora of mags out there.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 21 September 2002 03:10
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Yeah, my engineer won't touch spacers etc with a 50 foot barge pole.
Dave
83 ma61 7mgte
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 21 September 2002 09:01
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Fair enough, just trying to help. Maybee a group buy on some nice 16" rims with the right offset then?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 21 September 2002 10:12
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Who wants a set of Holotype R's? Pick me, pick me!
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
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Sat, 21 September 2002 12:39
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frank... ill buy if you pay for em .. to be honest, theyre pretty cheap, like $190 each or something.
stefan... i think youve missed the point. this isnt just a case of wanting bigger wheels. simply finding 16" wheels w/ the correct offset in the toyota 4 bolt pcd isnt going to solve anything. and good luck finding decent 16" wheels in that spec anyway. the point is to 'upgrade' the hubs. 5 bolt is stonger... end of story. the fact you can get sexy wheels for em is a bonus.
cheers
ed
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Re: 5-stud hubs on a MA61
