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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Sun, 11 July 2004 02:49
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After seeing the stock Corolla Sportivo pull 111.9kW at Dyno Day 9 to absolutely monster the Under 1.8L record, I haven't been able to get this engine off my mind.
Anyway, here's a cool technical paper on the things that factored into the design of the 2ZZ-GE.
http://www.users.on.net/~nark/2zzGE%20Engine.pdf
The wear on the lock pin is a bit of a cause for concern. Wonder how long they will last...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Sun, 11 July 2004 02:53
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Meridian Motorsports here in Melbourne are in the final stages of putting 2 of these motors into PRB Clubmans. They look simply fantastic.
Definitely took quite a bit of work sorting out the wiring as they kept the factory ECU for emissions purposes (aus motors).
If I get a chance I will take some pictures for you all.
Denis
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 02:38
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These SAE papers are the best things under the sun. Go a google search and there is a doc paper for the 1ZZFE as well. If you can't find it, I can email it to you to have it hosted here.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 02:42
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i believe the use of them in the US was because the rover K motor was never US emissions complied, and so would be too costly, with their current laws, to get passed..
the 2ZZGE ont he other hand is already on the market there..
belt driven cams? you mean like the normal 4AGE? and half the other motors on the market?
from that page
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While the Rover K engine had some innovative features and was relatively light, it was never designed to meet U.S. emissions requirements. The K engine was a relatively new design in 1995 when Lotus proposed its use in the original Elise. But by the time Lotus decided to bring Elise to the U.S., the K would no longer meet upcoming European emissions requirements either, so Elise would soon be needing a new engine for all markets.
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thanks for the doc Nark... it does look like a very interesting motor indeed.... there seem to have been a few failures tho, so it would also be interesting to hear about their weakpoints, and if they can be fixed....
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 02:47
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Is there a dyno graph of the run? Its good that it can make top end power and all but it doesnt start making power untill 6200rpm and trying to keep it in the upper powerband could be difficult around the track.
However in a very light car like a lotus i guess it wouldnt be to much of a problem as it could get up there very quick 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 02:51
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one acronym...
VVTL-i
small cam for up to 6000rpm, big cam past there... = pretty flat torque curve
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Campbelltown NSW
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 03:21
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here you go
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Campbelltown NSW
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 03:41
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that must have been a pretty quick sss cause ive had many runs with them and they all have lost
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 03:47
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Top Gear did a story on the 2ZZ-GE Elise in early June. Very entertaining to watch. They get an Apache gunship to try to get missile lock on it. 
Fifth Gear also pitted it against that little Opel Roadster thing. There's a great site with a heap of Fifth Gear and Top Gear torrents that someone posted up here a while ago, for those that are interested in watching.
From what I've heard, the gearing is all wrong in the Corolla and Celica. It actually drops out of the 6,200rpm+ band when changing gears.
The Lotii have a completely different set of gears which keep it in the power. They've also been tuned differently and have a different exhaust (of course).
Part of the reason it was chosen was because it would meet future Californian emmisions laws as well as the current...
Most reports I've heard about the 2ZZ-GE say that it's like driving an '80s turbo engine with a massive kick once the variable lift comes on.
Sounds like fun!
As for the straight line stuff, it's never gonna really impress, it's a high revving 1.8L. Straight line needs torque, especially low down.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 04:05
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"From what I've heard, the gearing is all wrong in the Corolla and Celica. It actually drops out of the 6,200rpm+ band when changing gears."
You can keep it in the power band with some practice
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 04:10
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| Nark wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 11:47 |
The Lotii have a completely different set of gears which keep it in the power.
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Bzzt, same gears as the Celica, but feels a lot better cos of the 400kg or so missing
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 04:34
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| trza2k wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 13:11 |
Doesnt look the flat to me 
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fair enough.. looking at the one done at toymods dyno day, the long linear section of power curve, up to 130km/hr, indicates that the torque there is pretty flat.... and when you get to 6000rpm, the torque does jump up, but the whole point is that it is not like a motor which ONLY has the big cams.. it has midrange as well...
motors like this often feel 'flat' as they have flat torque curve... older motors 'feel faster' as the torque finally kicks in, but these newer motors are a different ball game...
with my poor little 4K, torque peaks at 4500rpm, but you still have 85-90% of peak torque all the way to 8000rpm... so it feels kinda flat, but is still quick.
anyhoo...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 04:49
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 14:10 |
| Nark wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 11:47 |
The Lotii have a completely different set of gears which keep it in the power.
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Bzzt, same gears as the Celica, but feels a lot better cos of the 400kg or so missing
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Hmm... I was under the impression that they were shorter in the Lotii...
Or maybe that's an R version or something, who knows.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 04:57
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here's a little curve i knocked up from Screaminrolla's dyno chart
although the curve is not V8 flat, it stays pretty bloody high all the way from 50km/hr to 160km/hr
i'd be bloody happy to mod a motor to get that...
the dip around 6000rpm is not great, but given the constraints of a STOCK PRODUCTION vehicle.. is pretty good. Lotus say they have tuned out the dip AND got more torque at lower rpm...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 05:09
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Jebus! Someone needs to find something to take the place of his thesis...
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 05:24
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the thing makes more power than most 4age's b4 the the
vvtl-i kicks in anyway, i was well impressed 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 05:27
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Exactly, its not that its not making any power down low, it's just making much more up top
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Mon, 12 July 2004 05:28
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| Nark wrote on Mon, 12 July 2004 15:09 |
Jebus! Someone needs to find something to take the place of his thesis...
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ya think 
it's just a little excel sheet i knocked up years ago... just plug in km or rpm and estimate kw fropm graph and it spits out kw, hp, nm, ft-lbs, and can also have corrected numbers...
easy as really...
and (OT) i am doing things i starte dpulling apart my 7KE gear this morning.. need to rig up a circuit for the ISCV, and wait for fuel rail to arrive... and build another MS
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Tue, 13 July 2004 09:41
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with screaminrolla's dyno sheet.
if you look closely at the right hand side of the sheet. it's got Air/Fuel Ratios.
That curve that's sort of in the middle isn't the Torque Curve.
it's actually the A/F Ratio.
You properly measure torque, you will have to place the car on a chassis dyno. i thought u could measure torque on normal dynos too...but after much deliberation with a tuning shop, i was convinced.
Sorry to burst your bubbles people.
btw, toyota has a alright factory A/F ratio. Honda have excellent ones. Mitsubishi aren't too good. That's why you'll notice you'll get more out of a mitsubishi with an aftermarket ECU, because they're tuned so badly from the factory.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Tue, 13 July 2004 09:49
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yup, i know.. thats why i calculated the torque from the power figures on the dyno sheet...
this calculated torque figure is nominal... it's calculated from the wheel kw, and is as such a 'nominal wheel torque'
if you can correct the wheel kw to flywheel kw, then you can do the same for the 'nominal wheel torque' but i did this just for the shape of the curve.
to properly measure engine torque you need an "engine dyno"
'normal dynos' are 'chassis dynos'
no bubbles burst, the torque curve is just for shape, ie qualitative, not quantitative
interesting... 13:1 AFR is probably quite safe in a well developed motor such as the 2ZZ.. poor old mitsu.... at least they have Ed.O doing their commercials now
Cya, Stewart
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Wed, 14 July 2004 21:41
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| xtigerx wrote on Tue, 13 July 2004 19:41 |
btw, toyota has a alright factory A/F ratio. Honda have excellent ones. Mitsubishi aren't too good. That's why you'll notice you'll get more out of a mitsubishi with an aftermarket ECU, because they're tuned so badly from the factory.
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I beg to differ on this one.
I've been in the dyno cell the whole day for the last 4 Toymods Dyno days and can count on one hand the number of stock management cars that had good air fuel ratios.
Toyota map their engines, especially the turbos, very very rich. I don't think there was a single turbo at the last dyno day with standard management that didn't go off the scale rich. Now I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing for engine longevity but if power is what you're after then there is a lot going to waste.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Thu, 15 July 2004 00:07
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Still in "dreamer" mode I guess, but how much is one of these engines since they are they are basically the newest Toyota technology released?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Thu, 15 July 2004 02:45
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| no_tofu_speed wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 10:07 |
how much is one of these engines
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Lots.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 2ZZ-GE development doc
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Fri, 16 July 2004 08:45
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| no_tofu_speed wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 10:07 |
how much is one of these engines?
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I know someone who bought a 1ZZ-FE from a written off Corolla about 12 months ago and paid around $2200. At about the same time, I was offered a 2ZZ-GE package complete with 6-speed box (from ZZT230 Celica) for $4500 (ouch!). Both prices included loom/ECU etc
I would suspect that the 1ZZ's are becoming a bit more common at the wreckers now and the price should be going down a little. The 2ZZ will still be pretty pricy I think. If you intend to buy one, make sure you get the original key and ignition lock barrel as they're apparently an integral part of the anti-theft which is integrated into the ECU 
If you need some photos of a 1ZZ-FE adapted to a W55 box, let me know.
Dominic
http://www.DIYSportsCar.com
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