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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Central Coast, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 03:21
 
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engine mounts?
Dan
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 03:38
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Definitely not the turbo; it would have to be a large component with a fair amount of mass to cause the symptoms you describe. My first guess would be flywheel or crank pulley, but if they've been balanced as you say it must be something else. Another thing to check is your clutch - I bent the pressure plate in my Supra a while back (accidentally selected 2nd instead of 4th on the freeway  ) and it caused nasty vibrations like you described.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 03:42
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Thanks for ideas so far.. I should have mentioned that I replaced the engine mounts with brand new items only a few weeks ago and they made no difference.
Norbie - maybe I should be pulling the gearbox out  .. Did you have any other symptoms after bending the pressure plate?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 03:46
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Apart from the car vibrating whenever the engine was running, no.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 03:49
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Hmm very interesting.. Thanks. It's worth a try then. Might as well get the flywheel balanced again as well while it is all out.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 04:31
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when you say whole engine was balanced, what exactly and to what degree?
my experience with K motors has been that almost all of them have sort of resonant vibrations at a couple of points in the rpm range (like 4000 and 6000), but one motor i picked up had a slight vibration all the way thru..
it wasn't a nasty one, just something you could notice..
when i pulled it down to balance it, one of the big end bearing caps was out by 7 grams!!! the pistons and pins were within 2 grams..
i balanced rods total and end for end, and piston/pin assembkly, all to within 0.1 grams (overkill i know) and now there is no annoying vibrations at all..
if you feel like pulling the motor down, i could weigh the bits for you to 0.001grams.....
reminds me i need to buy a scale ( "yes occifer, it really is for weighing engine parts")
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 06:54
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Mate I can't tell you exactly how it was all balanced. When I rebuilt it Graham Wilkins did the machine work, I gave him crank, rods, pistons, pulley, flywheel, pressure plate to balance.
I am kinda tempted to strip it down. Soon i'll be putting in some head studs that YelloRolla is organising. So it's already half way there I suppose.
Can't hurt to give it all a freshen up.
I'll see how I go mate, thanks very much for the offer!
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:05
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Well, I guess there is always that thing called 'human error'. You never know, perhaps something was not balance correctly. Not saying anything about people's skill or anything, just the old 'human error'.......
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:11
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Nah you are right mate..
When I originally brought the 3t-gte it was auto so had to find a flywheel for it. I found one down in melbourne from a reptutable shop, the guy sold it saying it was balanced & lightened.
I ran the flywheel for a few years and engine felt smooth as. then when I rebuilt the whole engine, the shop who balanced it said they had never seen a flywheel so far out of balance before.
First thought was shit, that place I brought it from did a dodgy job. Then I thought, hmm what happens if the place balancing it this time didn't set it up right etc etc.
So yeah could very well be human error involved. Thing is though when the engine was first rebuilt it all felt good, then as I slowly did upgrades (turbo, manifolds, etc) somewhere along the way it developed the vibration but i cannot pinpoint when it happened exactly as it seems its more slowly happened and got worse.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:13
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Also should mention after it was rebuilt it made 85kw at the wheels, now its closer to 170kw.. so everything has been put under a lot more strain.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:18
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How long ago was it rebuilt? How much boost are you running? Should the motor be pretty strong internally?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:25
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Was rebuilt getting close to 30,000km I reckon. Maybe 20,000...
Running 20psi boost. Has forged pistons, heavy duty valve springs.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:27
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20psi constantly?
Could be your g'box too I guess..... It's a vibration - Could be anything!
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:32
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With the clutch in, vibration is still there so I think that rules out the box?
Yeah could be heaps of things .. I might start with the flywheel/clutch as thats only half a days work or so. If that doesn't help then strip the engine down and take Oldcorollas up on his offer to weigh the components.
I didn't realise you weighed bearing caps?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:39
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you don't usually...
usually you weigh them for total weight, and also for big end and little end weights (pivoting at the other end)..
when i did this, one rod was 7-8g total out, and big end was about the same, so i pulled off all the bearing caps, and one was totally different in weight... 7grams more!!
this was in a never pulled apart motr, so it must have been like that from factory! the cap was a slightly different casting (thicker ribs)....
so ya never know 
for you i'm hoping it is just the flywheel! Good Luck!
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 07:44
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Does anyone know if it might be the pulley, as this is the harmonic balancer right? I never quite understood these.
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 19 July 2004 10:30
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sounds like a presssure plate let go maybe have you any holes in the bellhousing cause they are only cast
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 01:55
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Howdy, well I just finished pulling the box out. Took the clutch and flywheel off also.
Everything was tight, so not something come loose. Visually it all looks ok, but I suppose just by looking at it you cannot really tell.
I'll organise to get the flywheel machined and balanced during the week and put a new pressure plate on and see how it goes.
Is there anything else I should be checking while the box is out?
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 03:28
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isnt it anice idea to have the flywheel balanced with the pressure plate on it?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 03:51
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what happens when u get a new clutch? rebalance it again?
should be fine to balance jus the flywheel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 04:18
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Yeah in the past the pressure plate and flywheel have always been balanced together..
So i'll give whoever is doing the job the flywheel and pressure plate.
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Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 12:01
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Sounds like engine harmonics as you said when it was first built there was no vibration but as you upgraded with turbo and manifold ect it then got a vibration in it , when you modify a manifold and fit a different turbo you then have the weight of the turbo and manifold sitting out further, higher or lower and maybe heavier which can amplify the natural harmonics of the motor , To fix this you need to make a couple of good sturdy stays from the turbo to the bottom of the block this also applies to the inlet side and also check for cracks in the alternator bracket or adjuster .
Trevor
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sat, 24 July 2004 23:34
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Thanks for that idea Trevor, i'll definately give that a go. How thick would you suggest the metal be for the supports?
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sun, 25 July 2004 05:12
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Something fairly rigid , I used 25mm RHS with 8mm plates welded each end to bolt to the block and turbo , I'v had to put braces on the turbo and plenum and also mount my alternator more rigidly now 99 percent of my vibrations are gone .
Trevor .
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Sun, 25 July 2004 10:37
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Thanks, well while the flywheel is off i'll get it checked out anyway.. Then get stuck into some bracing.
It's good to hear you got rid of most of yours.. Maybe light at end of tunnel 
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 00:32
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Well I dropped the flywheel and new pressure plate in today, they are going to put it in their balancing machine thing and check it all out. They were leaning though to the fact that when the engine was first built it was smooth, and the flywheel shouldn't change really.
In regards to bracing turbo and inlet etc, would it be acceptable to use rose joints on a threaded shaft between them? Only reason I ask this as I cannot weld, and have a few rose joints lying around and figure I could make a brace easily with these. Or would the movement in them stuff up the original aim?
Thanks
Joel
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 06:04
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Have you dropped the belt off your alternator to discount the alt being the cause??
Get yur pressure plate tested. If a spring breaks, they are hard to see but make a racket (but clutch may also slip as well)
Surely you can narrow down the location of the vibration using the big screwdriver to the ear trick?? ??
Good luck.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 06:18
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Mate the alternator idea is good, didn't even think of taking the belt off.
Thanks!
Joel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 06:31
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Mate the alternator idea is good, didn't even think of taking the belt off.
Thanks!
Joel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 06:31
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stupid computer.. sorry about double up.
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Location:
SYDNEY
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 26 July 2004 07:32
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Nobody has mentioned the thrush bearing in the crank/flywheel for the box to fit in, could this be a reason for vibration, I would think so.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Thu, 29 July 2004 23:52
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I picked up the flywheel and stuff today, they said the old pressure plate was rooted and could definately have been the cause for the vibration.
But can't be sure until it's all back together.. Will get stuck into it this weekend and fingers crossed that the problem will be gone.
If not, will investigate bracing/alternator/etc
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 08:09
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Well put it all back together this weekend, unfortunately it wasn't the flywheel/pressure plate ...
On a good note though changing the pressure plate has fixed the problem I had with the clutch picking up so low to the floor. Also have the brass button clutch in there which should stand up to the abuse more. So not all was lost from that job.
Back the the vibrations though....
I spent some time with a screwdriver testing each area of the engine to get an idea where it might be most noticable.
The vibration is definately coming from around the throttle body/front of plenum area.
The plenum is a custom front facing one. Even at the back of the plenum its not as noticeable. But the front is a shocker.
If you try and hold your hand on it almost hurts from the way its vibrating.
There is a rubber bend on the front of the throttle body and then the intercooler piping. There is NO vibration in the intercooler piping.
So whats everyone think? The plenum/runners more so is already braced to the block with the factory brace. Maybe I need another brace around the throttle body? Or is it possibly the throttle body itself, maybe the butteryfly vibrating around?
Thanks
Joel
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 10:05
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The throttle body won't be causing the vibration. You notice it most there because it's hanging off the side of the motor and as a result the vobration at this point is most pronounced.
You can brace it to the block if you like but bracing won't cure vibration in the rotating assembly.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 11:16
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does the 3T have a harmonic balancer from factory? if so, perhaps it's stuffed?
if it's most promonent on the drivers side of motor, are you sure the engine mount on that side is OK?
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 12:44
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the TB vibe is an effect, not the cause. is its brace & the manifold bolted on tight??
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 15:36
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| SeptemberSquallIndustries wrote on Sun, 01 August 2004 20:05 |
The throttle body won't be causing the vibration. You notice it most there because it's hanging off the side of the motor and as a result the vobration at this point is most pronounced.
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the TB vibe is an effect, not the cause. is its brace & the manifold bolted on tight??
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Sun, 01 August 2004 23:31
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Hmm so are you saying I can feel the vibration in the throttle body, but it might not be generated from this area?
Like the rocker cover, even the fuel rail which is attached to the inlet manifold has very little vibration.
I had Graham Wilkins check out the pully/harmonic damper and he gave it a balance and said appears all ok.
Yeah engine mounts are fine almost brand new.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 03:09
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If the vibration is being generated from a part of the rotating assembly, the further you go from there the greater the vibration will seem to be. It's about leverage.
For a vibration as severe as you say, there must be a relatively heavy component out of balance. There's just no way your wafer-thin throttle butterfly would shake the plenum so hard you can't hold it. In fact, there's no conceivable way the butterfly will shake anything at all.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 03:50
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just had an idea
have u actually gone back to basics and checked the tune of the engine
seems like maybe one of ur cylinders is being a little sluggish..
have u cheked the tune.. made sure all the plugs are good, and they got good spark, that ur injectors arent blocked, ur getting fuel and spark.
cuz it could do with that. on idle it might be allright, cuz its jus getting enough, but when u give it a little it gets the shakes....
just an idea..
mik
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, more questions!
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Mon, 02 August 2004 09:27
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Joel while you have the gearbox out, think seriously about replacing the input bearing with something a little stronger. Most guys who run the Wxx series behind HP engines change the bearing. Check your local bearing supply shop, if the guys are on the ball they should be able to supply a good bearing at a good price.
regards Chuck.
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Location:
Melbourne Vic
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 10:08
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I dont know too much about the 3T but, my 7M-GE was vibrating like a bitch, and after changeing the timing belt, tensioner spring, and tensioner pulley, it ran ALOT smoother. It was so bad it had almost no power above about 6k. Vibration got bad from 4k.
That engines a chain thou, right?
maybe the chain is stretched, the slippers are worn, or the tensioner is not working correctly. Stiffer valve springs cant help this effect too much.
Oh, and is your Head Gasket still ok? Good o'l headgasket eating 7M, that was also a contributor to the vibration.
and you dont have one of those silicon clutch fans on the front of the water pump do you? there a notorious source of vibration.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 11:19
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Howdy, thanks all for the more ideas
In regards to the tune etc, its possible, but the fact it can even happen on deceleration with no load at all makes me think it's not that. The engine has heaps of power and apart from the vibration goes well, like no misses or hesitation etc. But I suppose you can't rule anything out completely can you.
The 3T is timing chain yeah.. I tried having a play with the external tensioner just loosing it off a touch and tightening it up a little bit but this had no effect. But the bottom tensioner is internal and works on oil pressure so its possible this is causing it?
I do have heavy duty valve springs in there. Could a vibration be valve related? Or like clearance between cam and valve?
With the headgasket, i've been suspecting a problem with it as seems to be getting pressure in the radiator. So you mentioned a headgasket can cause vibration?!?
I have electric thermo fan so not the clutch fan.
Tonight I tried putting a shitty little brace between the throttle body and head, just to test it and see if any difference. it wasn't a very substancial brace just some 4 or 5mm thick metal bolted to 1 bolt on the throttle and 1 bolt on the head.
Anyway, that took away a lot of the vibration from the throttle body, but still the plenum is just as bad.
I'm wondering if more bracing would help, or is this just a bandaid fix for another problem?
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 12:49
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mate that would definately be a bandaide fix! could also make things worse as you would be utting more pressure and strain on whatever is wrong.
if you bolt it up then whatever the problem would be wont have anywhere to release its strain, hence the vibrations. also it is highly unlikely it is bottom tensioner OR chain as you would hear the chain rattle on startup until oil builds up in tensioner.
so if there is no noise at atart up then its definately not tensioner or chain. the benefit of having a chain is the FACT that you can HEAR it when its stuffed.
this isnt something you hear all the time but when the motor is on, in neutral and you rev over 3500 have you tried holding the tip of the exhaust? i know it would be a bit hot BUT if the exhaust shakes as much as the plenum and as bad as the vibration then it would most probably be something loose (engine mounts, ex/in mani, etc) or overall engine balance off. i know the exhaust always vibrates but make sure it is the same magnitude of vibration.
also the reason it vibrates most at the plenum would be cause it is the least supported part of the engine. when reving can you notise the engine shaking as bad aswell? or is it just a feel and not visual? if its a feel then i would have to go for internal balancing (crank, rods, etc)
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 02 August 2004 18:16
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perhaps you will have to do the inevitable - open the motor up and weigh all the components, then take the rotating components back to the balancing shop and ask them to spin them up as a double-check of their work which apparently wasn't completed sufficiently last go 'round the ferris wheel
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:19
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Well the rear main seal has started leaking now. Talked to Graham about it and he is pretty sure all signs are pointing to a crack in the crank
Looks like a rebuild.... bugger.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:30
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or you could look into your 3SGTE 
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:35
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Ahh mate i'd love to finish the 3sgte off and now does seem the perfect time.
It's just that I need at least another 4k to throw at the 3S which I don't have and wont for a long time.
Where as a freshen up on the 3t should only cost $500 or so. I already have a gasket kit for it, just need to find a secondhand crank and get some bearings and some machine work done.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 01:43
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i know what you mean...
where do you get metal head gaskets for the 3TGTE??? or do you still use normal ones
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Location:
Menai area of Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 13:45
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he doesnt use a dizzy, he is running direct fire
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 13:51
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and its still making the power.
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Location:
Menai area of Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 14:40
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Fair enough - could still be spark problem though.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 21:19
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not necessarily cause a spark problem would cause back fire, power loss, car jolts (car jolting back and fourth when accelerating)
but he is only getting the shakes... joel i doubt its going to be a cracked crank but it would most definately need a re-balance of everything
which brings to mind if your gonna get the crank re-done and new bearings (big ends and rod bearings) throughout can you let me know!!! i might get a set with you... actually check your PMs
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Mon, 16 August 2004 23:32
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Had the car at Graham Wilkins yesturday and now after seeing it first hand he is as confused as I am. Basically has no idea what the cause is..
Looks dismal though if one of the most reputable engine builders can't diagnose it then i've got no chance haha.
He originally thought crack crank, but said normally vibration is a lot worse when you back off.. Where with mine the vibration is there if you are accelerating, decelerating, or keeping it at a fixed RPM.
It does look like I just have to strip the engine down and hopefully once it is all apart something will show up.
Fade-e , mate once I decide what to do i'll let you know incase u want to get some bearings etc as well.. But i'll probably strip it down and give it to Graham to source bearings and machine it all up then i'll assemble it.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Menai area of Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Tue, 17 August 2004 11:51
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Mate, I can tell you a spark problem can cause vibration. The suymtoms you describe occur at low rpm - we're talking 3,500 rpm plus. WTF not my car anyway.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Tue, 17 August 2004 12:52
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could you hook up a microphone, record some noise, and then check with a sound program (like goldwave?) to see what the frequency is? see how it correlates with engine rpm? ie is it at crank speed, half crank speed, or something else?
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Engine vibrations, narrowed it down.
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Tue, 17 August 2004 23:15
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| Scorpion wrote on Tue, 17 August 2004 21:51 |
Mate, I can tell you a spark problem can cause vibration. The suymtoms you describe occur at low rpm - we're talking 3,500 rpm plus. WTF not my car anyway.
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Howdy, so are you saying that spark related vibrations occur at low rpm or high? sorry just bit confused there... As with mine it is from 3500 to redline.
Thanks
Joel
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well my part anyway