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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 05:58
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I have a ST162... and i'm looking at an engine conversion, i can't do a turbo one because i can't afford to insure it... but i was wondering what the different types of 3SGE's are and what will fit into my 162..? Any help appreciated... i did a search but couldn't find any real information...
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 06:24
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u have a gen 1 3sge
gen 2 3sge
1990 to 19993 (96 octane)
comes from jap celica and sw20 NA mr2
9.75: compression with 156bhp/117kws
its ok but theres better
gen 3 3sge 1994 to 1995(98 octane)
comes from sw20 mr2 Bathurst edition and the jap celica
has better cams and a compression ratio of 10.5:1
has 173bhp/130kws
its the best bang for buck and good to modify aparently
gen 4 3sge 1996 to 1998 (96 octane)
newer motor but shit due to it being strangled for USA emissions requirements
9.5:1 compression
160bhp/120kws
rare as shit and who cares not much bang for buck
gen 5 3sge 1999 to current (98 octane)
8500rpm redline  6 speed rwd is fitted to jap altezza/is200
vvti 205bhp/153.5kws
very expensive (about $10,000 for a half cut is wot i heard) and not that common but great power for a NA block
i was considering to by a st162 and do an engine upgrade(still am considering getting one) and i did alot of research and shit so i help this helps u.
i would go the gen 3 3sge throw in some chunky cams, lightened flywheel extractors, the quad throttlebodies from a 20v fit aparently and some aftermarket management. you would have one sweet as celica that would be an awsome weapon
WRX's watch out 
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:22
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WoW that was fantastic thanks a lot... BTW i am NOT being sarcastic that was a really big help.
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:27
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Now just to find myself a 3rd Gen...
First a couple of questions...
Will I need a half cut or will just an engine do?
Whats a rough guess at price?
Will a 3rd Gen run on a 1st Gen loom..? oviously changing the CPU
Do I need to do work to my gearbox?
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:27
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well i thought hey i got the info so i might as well thro it up and now anybody else who wants to know can do the search and get it as well
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:30
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| 79rollaboy wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 17:27 |
Now just to find myself a 3rd Gen...
First a couple of questions...
Will I need a half cut or will just an engine do?
Whats a rough guess at price?
Will a 3rd Gen run on a 1st Gen loom..? oviously changing the CPU
Do I need to do work to my gearbox?
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from wot ive found out a half cut would be ur best bet
would prob cost about 2500
i think u need the 3rd gen loom
and get a new gear box cos the old one will last about 5 seconds
(or about 2 full power upshifts) 
but the guys who actually have these cars would know better i think
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 07:45
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Thanks...
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 08:58
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You forgot that the rs200 engine is north south and won't fit in a celica.. but the beams out of the st202 will, 4,500 for a front cut from adelaide jap dismantlers, 200bhp close enough to 210 
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 09:05
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oh sorry but i thought i said it was rwd anyways i got the power from somewere a web site or something still i think i did a decent job or laying it all out wouldnt u say
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 09:07
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Im not sure what to do... Why is it that the non TVIS and non VVTi 3SGE's have more power..?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 11:08
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t-vis is good for low end torque but does nothing for top end power, the interesting thing about the later non-tvis engines is they appear to have something like a varible capacity intake plenum, which i guess would make the power curve more efficient, ie the second plenum chamber is closed at low revs (better for low end power) but open up at high revs (boosts top end power). t-vis applied to power as opposed to torque. at least thats how i understand it, correct me if im wrong.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Mon, 23 August 2004 11:17
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i am currently putting a gen 2 motor in my st162, you will definatly have to use the new looms, a halfcut would make life a ton easier too.
I bought the engine, loom and ecu alone. so im using the standard gearbox and will have to go through the wiring loom trying to work out which plug is the equivelant of what from the gen1 loom and swap over plugs for everything not on the engine (pain in the arse). another strange problem ive encountered is that the gen2 flywheel is of slightly larger diameter, and so the st162's starter motor wont bolt in. i tried to bolt on the gen1 flywheel but it has an ever so slightly different bolt pattern, so the gen1 flywheel is at the engineers being redrilled.
Just a bit of insight into some things to expect.
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Wed, 25 August 2004 00:13
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| Farmsci ST162 wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 21:17 |
i am currently putting a gen 2 motor in my st162, you will definatly have to use the new looms, a halfcut would make life a ton easier too.
I bought the engine, loom and ecu alone. so im using the standard gearbox and will have to go through the wiring loom trying to work out which plug is the equivelant of what from the gen1 loom and swap over plugs for everything not on the engine (pain in the arse). another strange problem ive encountered is that the gen2 flywheel is of slightly larger diameter, and so the st162's starter motor wont bolt in. i tried to bolt on the gen1 flywheel but it has an ever so slightly different bolt pattern, so the gen1 flywheel is at the engineers being redrilled.
Just a bit of insight into some things to expect.
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Very interesting......thanks for the insight.
Seems a halfcut with a gearbox & starter motor ready to go would be a bit more hassle free, I'll make a note of that....
Keep us up to date with your progress mate, especially on how the wiring goes. That's the main thing that's scaring me with a swap like this if I go and do it myself.
Hope it all goes well!
-Matt
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Wed, 25 August 2004 01:10
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i think that if u should get a half cut from sss (tho ive herd they r rather dodgy) or some place and throw it the heavy shit(heavy = expensive lavour costs) in urself and then get a auto sparky to wire it up for u cos i would never be that brave as to tacle a wiring loom
ill do anything on a car cept for the wiring
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Wed, 25 August 2004 01:34
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The gen 3 motor is definately the best bang for your buck and while getting a half-cut is more expensive up front it will save you dollars in the long run.
And while the newest BEAMS 3S-GE has the greatest horsepower, its set-up for north-south installs and RWD, which has been covered above already.
The gen 3 ecu loom and pin-outs are different from the gen 1.
The gearbox is stronger in the gen 3 to deal with the increased torque of that motor, so while you won't outright kill your gen 1 g/box you will shorten the life of the thing. If you are getting the front cut, may as well swap the entire thing in !
I would be wary of increasing the performance of the gen 3 by too much as you will do two things, increase your torque steer and start to marginalize the strength and life of your FWD drivetrain half shafts and CV joints. Also, throwing cams and a throttle body at a gen 3 does not give you huge increases in power, but it does more your peak power and torque curve up higher in the rev range, meaning you have to rev the rings off the thing to access that power.
Anyone having driven a 2ZZ-GE ZZT231 Celica will know what I mean.
Besides, you are going from 138bhp (when new) to 173bhp, a 25% power increase, in a std 2 litre NA motor, running on 98 octane of course, and no insurance or engineering hassles, both of those together are bigger money burners than buying a half cut. Its not a bad swap by any stretch of the imagination.
[Updated on: Wed, 25 August 2004 01:35]
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Wed, 25 August 2004 02:52
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Yeah olihaub I think that would be the way to go - do the actual motor swap myself, and then get an auto electrician to actually wire it up. Hopefully I'd be able to get one who is willing to come to me (I'm sure there would be mobile ones out there) since the car wouldn't be going anywhere till it's wired up! Would rather pay someone for a day or two to do it rather than do it cluelessly myself and bugger it up.
ra23 when you say the gearbox on a Gen 3 is stonger, is it the same gearbox with strengthened internals? (I have a stock ST162 with Gen 1 3SGE, not sure what the gearbox code for these is.) I'm thinking either an ST182 or ST202 (preferred) half cut, so if I drop in the entire motor/gearbox assembly then I'm hoping that my driveshafts will bolt up directly with no probs. (Either that or use the shafts/CVs from the half cut if that's possible) Same goes for the gearshift linkages too.
-Matt
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Wed, 25 August 2004 03:07
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Matt,
The gen 3 g/box is physically/externally similar, but it does have stronger internal's and IIRC slightly revised gear ratio's to better suit the engine.
I don't know the g/box codes offhand for these either, but they are different for each model.
It would be a great idea to use as much as possible from the half cut, driveshafts/cv's/gearshift cables etc. and I understand that you can do this, but I'm not 100% sure. I researched this conversion a few years ago and found that it was very do-able with no major concerns.
Cheers,
Mitch.
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 09:09
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Bump... this should be a sticky...
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 09:10
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I was thinking...
From what I know the Gen 2 and the Gen 3 are not very different visually... how can I identify a gen3 from a gen2 so that I dont get ripped off???
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 09:23
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What are the Engine numbers accosiated with Gen3 blocks?
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 10:27
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gen 3 has alloy sump gen 2 steel sump
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 10:29
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Shveet as... Thanks... time to start looking at sumps...they wouldn't be painted by any chance and i would have no idea how to identify which is which???
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 11:30
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the inlet manifolds look different on gen 2 and 3
Gen 2
Gen 3
Note on the gen 3 the first inlet plenum directly connected to the throttle body is round whereas on the gen 2 its a lot more square looking.
Cheers
Steve
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 12:20
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My problems are all solved... I searched everywhere for about 3 hours... that has helped so much... thanks
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Different gens of 3SGE?
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Tue, 12 October 2004 13:03
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| Quote: |
but the beams out of the st202 will, 4,500 for a front cut from adelaide jap dismantlers, 200bhp close enough to 210
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wow nice price for a "drop in" upgrade
btw, the driveshafts will swap over between your gen1 gearbox and the 202 one.. fyi just bolt 'em in
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