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Location:
sydney, my house
Registered:
September 2002
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Cat converter legal or not?
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Mon, 23 September 2002 22:27
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I have been trying to find out wether i need a cat converter on my car...
As it is a 1976 model they did not come out with a CAT. but the engine has been replaced with a 3TGTE that would have come with a CAT in standard form.
so my question is does the rule of a CAT apply to my car as it is over 25years old?
I have a \cat at the moment but it is second hand and all the internals are broken and rattling around. I dont really want to put it on the care as it is Fu#$ed...
I would like to keep the car legal but don't want to shell out 300-400 bucks for a new CAT.
any advice would be greatly appreciated...
BTW the car is registered in NSW if that makes a difference
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I supported Toymods
Location:
south of the big smoke
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Mon, 23 September 2002 22:30
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im pretty sure you dont need it as its an old car . but do the ozone layer a favour and put one on! go to the wreckers and get one if ya can afford a brand newy!!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Mon, 23 September 2002 23:35
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This may depend on what state you are in, but cats were brought in when unleaded fuel was brought in. They convert some of the nastys in the exhaust gas to water and cO2 and the like.
So the need for a cat most likly wont be based on the age of the car, but what engine and fuel you are using. If you are using unleaded, you may well be required to install a cat.
Contact what ever government department that handles rego and conversions in your state for the definitive answer.
Craig.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 00:32
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Yeah, you'll need to check, it probably depends on the engine and the fuel. Unleaded fuel contains some real nasties.
As someone said though, do the ozone layer and the people around a favour and get one if you are using unleaded fuel, it converts some real nasties, and if you get a decent one it shouldn't provide a real restriction at all.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 00:40
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Well i just went to the RTA for an emissions test at Penrith and the guy there applied pre 1986 ADR rules to my car even though i had told him that it was a transplant engine and running premium unleaded as opposed to lead replacement.
I did however fit a cat convertor and registered 0.0mg carbon monoxide, both the RTA guy and the engineer were stunned and couldnt work it out hahaha!
If you dont fit a cat it will probably make it louder as well. So do yourself and the environment a favour, fit a cat and it will save u hassles with the engineer and the defect patrol.
You have a turbo anyway, i dont think that 4% or so of flow loss will make a terribly large difference
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Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
sydney, my house
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 02:56
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Cheers, i will have to weld up some new flanges and have one fitted.
i am sure the performance will not suffer too much.
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 12:30
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Dont fit one!!!! You dont have to. In NSW if its pre 86 and you put a newer unleaded engine in and it passes emissions you dont have to fit one. My mate put a ca18 in a ke30 corolla and it has no cat.
You guys think cats restrict 4%?????? No way
I have a pipe i bolt in for track days that replaces the cat and with it installed i got 270 rwhp, without it i got 300hp on the same dyno!
They block alot, especially on turbo cars.
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 14:22
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Here is a little summary that might add to the discussion here:
A catalytic convertor removes the pollutant gases from the exhaust by reducing or oxidising them. Precious metals are used as catalysts in the process, like an alloy of platinum and rhodium (35% and 73% respectively in US). Palladium metal may also be the choice.
Reactions (heterogenous catalysis) take place in the convertor. Both NOx and CO are eliminated together by a redox reaction on rhodium catalyst. NOx oxidises CO to CO2, and is reduced to harmless nitrogen gas (N2).
CO and CxHy are oxidised by air on platinum catalyst. (C7H16 is used to represent the unburnt hydrocarbon)
For all these reactions to happen, the convertor is designed as a 'three-way convertor' and has an oxygen monitor fitted to the engine. The monitor checks the quantity of oxygen into the engine to make sure there is enough oxygen in carrying out oxidation reactions.
However for these reactions to take place there cat needs to be at about 200 degress so too far back in the exhaust system and the cat does not do much. Too far forward and it gets too hot and the precious metals in the cat are burnt up. It's quiet a compromise.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Tue, 24 September 2002 20:45
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the cat also when it converts the gas removes toxens which can cause cancer. so, if you do have a car without a cat, don't breathe the exhaust
my ta22 will run a cat as part of the zorst when the 4AGE is in. its also environmentally friendly too and helps you pass emissions tests!
so there are three positives to come out of it.
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Wed, 25 September 2002 12:18
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Guess i'll be having your left testicle but frankly i dont want it!!!!!!! 
How can it not pose a restriction! Look at the damn thing. Its a honeycomb chunk.
I'm all for the environment, i write software for buildings to give vast energy savings and i enjoy doing my bit for the environment, dont get me wrong there.
Please explain to me why whilst i was getting a dyno tune we found something in my exhaust was restricting further power. I had a custom 3inch mandrel bent exhaust with straight through muffler and custom dump pipe. Also had a hi-flow cat converter on it. Basically its a very good, free flowing exhaust.
Removed the cat and put a straight pipe in. Adjustments were made to the a/f ratios as now the car ran leaner because the system flowed better(this also tells you it restricts). No timing adjustments on the microtech were made which make large power gains.
So 270rwhp >>>>>300rwhp on same dyno with the change of a cat.
Thats about a 40hp gain!
So they dont affect power on a dyno hey? Which dyno do you use?
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Wed, 25 September 2002 12:30
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Paul, Technically 270rwhp > 300rwhp = 30rwhp gain 
It will of course become a restriction, but when was the last time u consistantly drove at 160kmh + on the roads 
haha i know i know, its all about the pub bragging of a 300hp car
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Wed, 25 September 2002 13:58
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All I can say is that your cat must of been a cheap peice of crap! I have tried this a few times now use a good cat and there was just no gains to be made removing the cat! But as I said, you will need a "good" cat not a cheap $120 job!
There was an article in Hot4's mag a while ago that backs up exactly what i'm saying!
Oh and a 2.5inch cat will be restrictive in a 3 inch system!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Wed, 25 September 2002 14:12
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I've seen magazine articles on it too, they got a good cat, did some dyno runs with it, then they gutted it, and it barely made a difference at all...
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Thu, 26 September 2002 00:49
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I have a few things to say to this 1
1st thing is i think paul was saying 30hp @ the wheels 40hp @ the motor
2nd thing, paul is taking about a car that puts out 300hp @ the wheels, not some little 4age or somthing
his motor is flowing alot more air than most so any restriction would make a more noticable difrence to his power output
anyway 
just my thoughts on the matter
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Thu, 26 September 2002 15:32
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Thanks very much Josh, i was just winding up! 
But then saw your response, at least someone was able to work that one out.
Oh and "Cool1", your just too cool. Who said anything about cheap and 2.5inch? Not my style, if i do something i do it properly. Why would anyone put a 2.5inch cat in a 3inch mandrel bent system?????  That's plain stupid. And a cheap one thats as stupid as you suggesting I would put in a 2.5inch one.
It cost $300, is proper 3inch and has the widest legal internal spacing between runners.
Thanks again Josh,
These guys do get too much sun hey!
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Thu, 26 September 2002 15:36
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Woops, i gotta ad this>>>>>>>> Hot 4'S Magazine will back this up????????
Well, we know where you get your info from.
Enough said eh Doof Doof.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Thu, 26 September 2002 22:46
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Not another one that cant read I never suggested that you were using a 2.5inch cat! I stated that a 2.5inch cat would be restrictive in a 3inch system!
You think my info comes from a Hot4's mag?? I worked designing exhaust systems for forced induction cars for a few months! I got to try a large range of systems on different cars and all the results came from the same dyno!
If the system is designed correctly and you are using good quality components(not just items you got ripped off buying) you will get no gain on the dyno buy just removing the cat!
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 01:11
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Oh my god! I can't beleive you still think they dont give a restriction. Have a look at a cat for god sake! How could it not give a restriction?????? It sits right in the flow of exhust gases????? 
Maybe on cars as Josh said that are putting out piss weak power it wont make a difference but when you start getting decent the tiniest of things become restrictions like airfilters, press bends, cats, bad castings on the inside of exhaust manifolds etc. Thats why you'll see an 8 second car have none of these above things. Do you think they did it just for looks or something?
The cat i bought was the one from Hot4's by the way. Oops you mustn't have been there that day Milko! But you were there the rest of the time i built my exhaust my imaginary friend.
Enough said Milko. 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 01:20
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FK the ozone, FK the restriction. For $300+, it had better come with a 7MGTE headgasket so i can fix my stupid car! 
But seriously, unless its a hollow pipe, then its a restriction.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 02:22
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It seems you have missed the point of this thread! If you want a drag/race car thats fine! Remove the whole system, make it as noisy as all fuck and then dont drive it on the road! The guy is talking about a street car! I am talking about stree cars! If you think that a cat is soo restrictive that your not gonna be able to sleep just dont fit one and keep ya little thoughts to yourself! And again the guy is talking about a street car!
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Location:
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 03:11
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Sorry guys for hi-jacking the thread. Just didn't want to see others mislead on the flow restrictions of catalytic converters.
I'll start a new thread. Sorry again.
There's an engineer in Taree that if you pass the ADR37 Test without a cat he will provide you with an engineers certificate for $220-$240.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 03:19
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Sorry if I sounded stupid before. I can understand that in a situation such as this, the cat would provide a sizable restriction...still doesn't change the fact that I think if a car is using unleaded petrol that it shouldn't have one. Just because its legal, doesn't mean it wouldn't be right to sacrifice some power for the sake of the environment, at least when you're driving around on a day to day basis.
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 03:20
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i think like most threads the original question had been answed and its now morphed into somthing of a similar topic
you cant just cry because the thread is being changed.
Paul hasnt said anything that alot ppl dont agree on anyway
cats are restrictive, how restrictive they are just deponds on how you use it.
oh and paul that engineer has closed done (i was his last customer)
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Location:
sydney, my house
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 04:37
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hehe what a stir...
anyway i have ordered a new cat and a 3" inch system for my car.
gets fitted this week.
I checked with the RTA and yes u need a cat converter if your car runs on unleaded.
I am glad there are so many environmently freindly people here.
and i agree yes a cat is a restriction,
and no it probably dosen't matter on a road car.
Its not like you can drive a 200-300hp car to the point where you will notice the difference on the road.
if no one had cat converters we would all have cancer.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 05:03
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To Mr SUPRAGTE,
I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but a 3 inch system on a 6 cylinder turbocharged monster is probably a huge restriction on your exhaust gas flow as it is. Adding in a catalytic converter is obviously going to make things worse, even a high flow one. Obviously due to regulations/laws and even restrictions on under bonnet temperatueres and space you can't fit anything much bigger than 3 or 3 1/4" (especially extractors), but I'm just saying, any exhaust is a restriction.
Gains of 30hp seems a little unrealistic, maybe 15->20 rwhp is *possible*, but unless there is something seriously wrong with your "expensive" high flow cat, I would be very surprised to see 30rwhp difference between a cat convertered car, and no cat.
Now about this left testicle stuff, I know people close to me who only have their left testicle left, because of cancer. The pollution formed from a non-catalytic converter exhaust system was obviously not a contributing factor in this case, but the less we F*#% up the environment the better, instead of chasing horsepower, try improving your driving skills to make up speed, because when you get to the bottom of it, the driver is the BIGGEST restriction on the car, not the catalytic converter.
You only have to look at Jack and Andrew in the South Australian Rally Championship to see what I mean, or for a more well known example, Simon Evans in the ARC.
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Fri, 27 September 2002 23:49
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It was a 30rwhp difference, it's pretty obvious any exhaust on a car is a restriction. Dont think obvious things need to be stated like that. I'd like to think we're sorta past that stage of general common knowledge in car terms with ppl on here but sometimes you do get surprised.
I've started a new thread to disscuss it incase anyone want to continue it.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Cat converter legal or not?
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Sat, 28 September 2002 06:13
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back to the 3t, I think I remember jamie, MRTA22, got his passed without as the very first run of 3t-gte's came as a leaded motor or something like this..
maybe you should pm him
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