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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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 Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 25 September 2004 07:02
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I want to make a starter motor (off the engine) operate. Have car battery -ve going to starter case, and +ve going to the +ve nut on the starter. This alone does nothing, but if I run a wire from the relay tab to the +ve battery terminal, the starter thrusts out for a second then goes back in. Won't stay on though.
To get it to thrust out again for a second, have to 'reset' by disconnecting from the battery terminals and connecting again. Obviously I'm not doing somehting right with the relay...
Any ideas?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 25 September 2004 07:09
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So you have the following:
- from battery going to start housing
+ from battery to + connection on motor
+ from battery to starter solenoid
?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 25 September 2004 07:12
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the solenoid (spade terminal thing) is actually a switch. it also pulls so that the gear is thrust out.
if the gear thrusts out, the solenoid is working. if the starter does not turn, then the switch part of the solenoid is not working.
if the starter does not turn, the touch the battery +ve to the 'other' nut on the solenoid (where the wire goes into the starter). this should turn the motor alone.
if that doesn't work, somethings wrong with the starter motor.
sound slike something is dicky with the solenoid perhaps?? you can take the solenoid off and test off the motor.. could also be the earthing of the solenoid thru the starter.. put a cable onto the body of the solenoid too.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 25 September 2004 07:20
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Thanks for the near-instantaneous replies, guys.
Cool1: Correct.
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if the gear thrusts out, the solenoid is working. if the starter does not turn, then the switch part of the solenoid is not working.
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Definetly thrusts out, but doesn't seem to turn. The reason The starter is off the motor is because I was trying to do a comp test (engine sitting on garage floor) and the start motor was making a noise but not turning the engine, so thought better make sure the starter works first.
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if the starter does not turn, the touch the battery +ve to the 'other' nut on the solenoid (where the wire goes into the starter). this should turn the motor alone.
if that doesn't work, somethings wrong with the starter motor.
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I don't quite understand the 'other nutpart - is that next to the spade terminal, and much smaller than the large nut the battery +ve attaches to?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 25 September 2004 07:40
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Thanks champ.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 06:33
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Here are pics of the starter motor in question
I'm assuming the orange-coloured bolt in the first one is the +ve batt terminal, and the tab is the solenoid.
I tested, and there is continuity between the 'second contact' in pic 2 (which should go into the starter motor itself), and the case. And also between the solenoid and the case.
This shouldn't happen, should it?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 06:47
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yes yes and yes..
ok yours looks a little different..
in normal operation, put -ve lead to the body, put +ve to the bolt in the first pic, and when you apply power to the terminal (the covered spade terminal in the first pic), the gear should flick out, and when it is out, the motor shoudl turn.
in the second pic, that bolt has a fat wire going into the motor itself. if you connect -ve to the body, and then put +ve to that bolt (in the second pic.. the rubber covered one) then just the motor should turn... if not. the motor or (more likely) the brushes are bung.. if you undo those two long bolts, (and maybe a coupel more) the end of the motor should come off and it should have the brushes just there.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 06:49
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and the botl in the second pic should have continuity to the body of the starter.. since the motors coil goes between that bolt and the body of the starter.. it should be a few ohms.. check your manual to see what the coil resistance should be.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 07:01
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 16:49 |
and the botl in the second pic should have continuity to the body of the starter.. since the motors coil goes between that bolt and the body of the starter.. it should be a few ohms.. check your manual to see what the coil resistance should be.
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Lightning fast again Stewart!
Ah - I originally thought it should have continuity... then thought surely not, otherwise they wouldn't go the the trouble of insulting it. The few ohms explains it, I didn't check look at the resistance, just heard the continuity 'beep' and didn't feel right about connecting the +ve battery terminal to something that was earthed!
I don't have a manual - don't suppsoe anyone else knows what a 1GGTE starter motor coil resistance shoudl be?
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 08:37
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Measured it, and there's no resistance at all between that bolt and the case... 
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Location:
Binningup WA
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:15
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| Stefan wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 16:37 |
Measured it, and there's no resistance at all between that bolt and the case...
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The resistance of the solenoid coil is very low. Under 1 Ohm.
Just measured my starter coil off a 5M-GE which I've spent all day pulling out. My meter(precision bench type) shows a value 0.32 Ohms.
When testing a starter motor you shouldn't really pay attention to a continuity test beeper. The motor windings are very low resistance and appear as a dead short to most multlimeters.
You should have very low resistance to earth/ground on both the stud that connects the coil to the motor as well the coil terminal it self.
The stud that connects to battery normally should be open circuit relative to ground.
Most common faults I've had over the years with these Aisin starter's is either the contacts wear out(replaceable)or the coil winding fails, which is not an easy fix.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Wed, 29 September 2004 23:41
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| MacroP wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 22:15 |
The resistance of the solenoid coil is very low. Under 1 Ohm.
Just measured my starter coil off a 5M-GE which I've spent all day pulling out. My meter(precision bench type) shows a value 0.32 Ohms.
When testing a starter motor you shouldn't really pay attention to a continuity test beeper. The motor windings are very low resistance and appear as a dead short to most multlimeters.
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Ah, thanks. I really thought the coil would have a higher resisitance than that, and really thought I had a short.
My DMM has a resultion of .x ohms on the most sensitive (200ohms) setting, but shows .3/.4 ohms... which is the same as touching the 2 probes together.
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Location:
Tom Price
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Thu, 30 September 2004 13:17
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if you take the square looking plate off the back of it, it has 3 small bolts holding it on, you will see the contacts in there, you will find that 1 of the contacts is very worn and the other is not, I have found that this has been the cause of 99.9% of starter problems in toyotas. very easy to replace and about $5 from any spare parts supplyer.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 02:09
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Thanks! 
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Location:
Yowie Bay, Sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 09:03
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the start motor is fine
it only stays out for a second because it requires load on the gear (ie, turning motor) to keep it extended out (in mesh with flywheel)
it will work fine in a car
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 10:02
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It doesnt actualy require load to stay thrown out. It will run fine off the engine if ran properly and is in working order. It is a common problem with those nd reduction gear starters to have contact/plunger contact problems. They are a really good starter though. If you really want to , take the rear cap off the back (traingle looking thing) with the 3 screws and youll see the plunger and contacts inside.
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Location:
Yowie Bay, Sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 13:11
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yeh well, i'm only a mechanic... what would i know??
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 13:32
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Dabbid , i wasnt implying you dont know anything , i was just correcting you.
Oh , and im only and auto elec. 
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 13:48
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| Dabbid wrote on Fri, 01 October 2004 19:03 |
the start motor is fine
it only stays out for a second because it requires load on the gear (ie, turning motor) to keep it extended out (in mesh with flywheel)
it will work fine in a car
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Well... actually...
It would be nice if it did. The whole point of this thread (I should have said) is that I tired it first with the starter ON the engine, and it didn't work - made a noise but wouldn't turn the engine - which is why I took it off to make sure it was working on it's own first.
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Location:
Yowie Bay, Sydney
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Fri, 01 October 2004 21:16
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hmmm... well every start motor i've tested has only stayed thrown out for a second and they've all worked fine
but they're usually old dinosaur engines (eg, chevs)
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 02 October 2004 01:00
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Stefan the Denso starter you have shown is famous for getting shitty contacts. This causes the fault you've described....
Take the back plate of the solenoid. There's two copper contacts. One from your big +ve cable in and the other to the motor itself). When the solenoid kicks in a round plate on the end of it pulls bakc and shorts these two contacts, thus turning the motor.
On inspection you should find white crap on these contacts. Give it a scrape/clean/file and the plunger button as well if it looks bad.
Everything should be fine then
BTW, if you're too lazy/fussy to clean them drop in to Ingrams. New contacts should cost $5-8..
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Trying to operate a starter motor off the engien (1G). Can't get it to stay running...
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Sat, 02 October 2004 23:10
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wow!
if you notice the "pull in winding" in the pic posted by oldcorollas, you'll see that it doesn't seem to make any sense compared to what you learned in jr high science class or high school auto shop, about electo magnets/solenoids. it would seem to only get power after the solenoid has moved to make contact between the battery & starter. basic solenoid operation isn't as basic as it seems at first thought.
that's because there are really 2 windings on many, if not all starter mounted solenoids, 1 to pull & 1 to hold and they both have to work well. 1 goes to ground like you'd normally think, and the other "grounds" through the field coils in the starter.
http://toymods.org.au/Repository/TechDocs/4age_boo k/startingsystem/st_19.jpg
Toymods, thanks for the link.
by the way, if the pic isn't clear, terminal 50 is energizing connection, the small wire, not one of the large terminals.
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