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I supported Toymods
Banned User
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Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
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melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 10:35
 
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here is my design for an internal surge tank, i think it will work as good as any internal design, but if you want absoulutely nos surge ever, you would of course need an external one.
im thinking of making one of these and magneting it to the bottom of my fuel tank or something else dodgy.
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I supported Toymods
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May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 10:48
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Hehe thanks. Tis not a bad idea.
Anyone else?
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 10:53
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Oh and another question I have, How much fuel should be available at all times to an engine? In other words how big should a surge tank be? Same capacity as the engine?
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Location:
western queensland
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:02
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mines an external surge tank 2litres, full of foam on a 2ltr turbo and a skyline intank pump and bosch motorsport on surge tank.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:07
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what car is it? whats it gonna be used for?
i mean if you dont mind having a surge tank in the boot, its unbeatable really, and probably cheaper too. or depending on the space you could run an external one under the car. all depends on the application.
mines in the boot (hatch). all i can smell is fuel. i think its causing my headaches 
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:15
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Its a TA22 with 3S-GTE and will hopefully have about 300Kw at the wheels and used on the strip.
What you said about the fuel smell is what worries me. I dont what that at all 
If I was to have a external surge tank I would probably have it in the boot but have the pump under the car. Do you have any idea where the smell is comming from in your setup?
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:32
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there isnt even the slightest bit of moisture anywhere, no leaks at all. the lines must "sweat" vapour cause i can assure you they dont leak. they are just normal high pressure fuel lines.
i dont think mounting the pump outside the car would make a difference either, maybe a little quieter tho. having said that, i cant hear my VL pump in the boot which is mounted on a metal bracket with no insulation, over the noies from the lift pump which is under the car and heavily insulated.
if its gonna be for strip duties, have an external surge tank under the car. but if its for the strip, what are you worried about fuel smell?
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:40
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Its also going to be a street cruising car so I want it to be comfy 
I was thinking about hanging a surge tank under the car but then I still need to mount the high pressure pump below this.
I spose I could mount the surge tank under the guard at the front and then mount the pump on the solid chassis rail. The only thing I dont like about this idea is how messy the fuel lines will be.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 11:58
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if you ran an external surge tank in the car, enclose it like you would a battery in the boot - so even if the thing stinks, the smell is vented outside?
a surge tank up the front might be a long way for a humble lift pump to be constantly shifting fuel to.
personally, i'd feel safer if the actual pump was outside the car - if it leaked, i'd prefer the spray not to fill the boot up with race fuel.
cheers,
Charles
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:04
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The pump would be mounted outside even if the tank is inside.
I'm now interested in this fuel smell problem
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:04
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 20:53 |
Oh and another question I have, How much fuel should be available at all times to an engine? In other words how big should a surge tank be? Same capacity as the engine?
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as much fuel as your fuel pump can pump in the time that you expect no fuel to be pumped into the surge tank.
if you have the fuel return going into the surge pot instead of directly to the tank: as much fuel as the engine can consume during the time that no fuel is making it to the surge tank.
say if your HP pump supplies... (for arguments sake) 180L/hr at pressure, thats 3L per minute. it will take 1 minute to empty a 3L surge tank. 20 seconds to empty a 1L pot.
if you have sayy.. 4x500cc injectors... the maximum they will flow (WOT) will either be 2L/min or 1.6L/min (for 80% duty, depending on how the injectors have been rated)
either way, maximum is about 3L/min...
if your run is going to take under 15 seconds, maximum fuel flowed by pump is 750mls... so as long as surgepot is 1L, you'll be fine..
dunno why ppl tend to use very large surgepots... no reason to.
Cya, Stewart
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:05
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Good point.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:06
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fuel smell = leak.
could be as small as a pinhole or less.. a tiny amount of fuel will evaporate and fill a car with strong fumes.
maybe you could take out each component and submerge in water while filled with air to look for leaks?
any 'fuel leak detection powder" available? sounds like a good idea anyway 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:11
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 22:06 |
any 'fuel leak detection powder" available? sounds like a good idea anyway
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eer.. no ... but a cigarete lighter and turning all the lights off might help?
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:13
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man im sure i got no leaks. the hoses are all brand new. while the car is running ive put white paper areound the lines to see if anything goes on them but nothing. other people say the same thing too, you can smell it but theres no leaks.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:14
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well i think it'd be a good idea some sort of powder that changes colour when exposed to fuel.... surely the aviation industry has somethign snazzy like that
match will only work if AFR is within flammable range 
you could always smear some silicon around each suspect area (one area at a time) and see if the fuel smell goes away. that definitely works.. but is not a long term solution. (hands up anyone else that sealed a carby with silicon sealant )
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:18
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| EVOSTi wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 22:13 |
man im sure i got no leaks. the hoses are all brand new. while the car is running ive put white paper areound the lines to see if anything goes on them but nothing. other people say the same thing too, you can smell it but theres no leaks.
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the hoses themselves are unlikely to be porous to fuel. it is more likely to be either poor hose to fuel line clamping (what clamps are they?) or a poor joint somewhere.. cracks, pinholes, poor seal on the fuel tank bits... even a small opening near the hose to the filler neck perhaps..
if you can see fuel dripping, it'd fume you out badly.... as an experiment... put a single drop of fuel on a plate inside a warm car, and see what that smells like.. then you know what sort of leak you are dealing with.. it's surprising what such a small amount of fuel can do..
good luck  (my car smells like fuel too, but thats a different story)
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:22
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 20:26 |
Should I have a surge tank mounted somewhere or should I just have a internal swirlpot. I'm not certain that a swirlpot will be up to the task for what the car will be used for.
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i'm going the intank route to simplify hosing.. but it does mean you have high pressure from back to front of car.
the issue i have with intank swirlpots is, even if you route the return line to help fill the pot, you are still at the mercy of sloching fuel when the tank is low. the level in the swirlpot will always be similar to that of the whole tank itself...
unless of course you weld a sort of 'drop tank' swirl pot on.. say 10cm lower than tank and 15cm diameter.. then it is effectively the same as an external surgepot and will work just as effectively. problem is space...
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:24
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 29 September 2004 22:22 |
the issue i have with intank swirlpots is, even if you route the return line to help fill the pot, you are still at the mercy of sloching fuel when the tank is low. the level in the swirlpot will always be similar to that of the whole tank itself...
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This is exactly what I was talking about above. Kinda puts me off the swirl pot idea.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Wed, 29 September 2004 12:25
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yeah if the lines arent porous all it could be are the connections. the tank is under the car, all thats in the boot are surge tank, fuel pump and hoses. hoses are brand new. brand new hose clamps but they arent proper EFI ones just the general tridant? ones.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 00:20
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Hello,
I will give a quick description (it ended up being long  ) of what I run (can get pic if needed).
Standard KE25 fuel tank > pre pump > external surge tank (BIG one over 2L (yes it's overkill by a long shot but better to have and not need than need and not have, especially with fuel!) so it will never run short even if I change it to another engine setup etc) > bosch high pressure pump > fuel rail > return line.
A few filters thrown in amongst that for good measure. This set up runs sweet and I have never even come close to experiencing any fuel surge on the track/strip/street.
I have the whole lot mounted in the boot, the high pressure pump is quiet as a mouse (you wouldn't know it's running) the pre pump lets out a noticeable hum though, nothing the roar of the engine can't dull out though.
I have been told though that rubber fuel lines do "sweat" the ever so smallest amount of fuel causing fumes. Not normally a problem in a car when it is factory setup and only has a very short amount of rubber hosing inside. But when you have two external pumps, surge tank, additional lines for all this I think I would have about 10 times or more rubber hosing in the car than standard.
I never get fumes at all when driving, but if I leave the boot closed and car locked up for a few weeks or more there is a slight smell in the boot of fuel (there are no leaks either). I was told by a hose sales place (ENZED) that if a fuel smell was a problem to run all silicon hoses inside the car and this would fix the problem. I plan to do this swap eventually, but for now if I know I wont drive the car for a few weeks I just leave the boot open. If it ever caused a smell while driving though the hoses would be replaced in a second.
Cheers.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 01:31
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This may be a long winded way of doing things, but why not run a swirl pot in the tank for Day to day cruising, so to do away with running fuel lines inside the cabin, and for strip runs install a surge tank in the boot, Utilising the tank pump as a lifter and use a second pump for the feed? I know you have put heaps of work into the car and IMHO a setup like this would be a flaw in my mind in the car.
If you are getting a tank made can you have a swirl pot and lifter pump feeding an intank surge tank of 3lt capacity, then a Hi pressure pump.
or
If your concerns are based around strip running, when you put your foot down the fuel will slosh to the rear of the tank and basically stay there whilst you are accelerating. would it be feasable to build a recess in the floor of the tank at the rear to locate a swirl pot in? Or come up with some alternative design of "swirl pot" that acts as a swirl pot and surge tank at the same time. ie will hold enough fuel for a sub 15 sec (say) pass but will be fine for day to day driving. Somthing along the lines of the non swirl pot "maze" where the centre circle retains fuel in a short term. I'm losing the plot now so I'll keep quiet...
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 03:16
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I have always had a concern with low and high pressure pumps, the associated electrics, swirl pots and rubber hoses mounted in the boot space of a TA22/RA23 when you only have a piece of melamine board and the back seat foam padding between yourself and that combination. And the constant faint smell of fuel would worry me sick.
So, I did this. Mounted an external pump on the chassis rail under the boot. Modded the tank with an extended fuel pick up and filter sock from a MS123 Crown, and the heart of the system is this. I had a square flat section cut out of the bottom rearmost section of the tank, directly below the bottom of the pick-up. Inside this square I had welded a cylindrical tube that holds about a litre, with small holes drilled equally in sections up the sides, to let fuel in as the tank is filled. There were also small holes drilled at the very bottom of this cylinder. Weld the flat section back in and hey presto, no surge on corners, when street light dragging or when fuel levels get low.
This was done by a certified fuel tank specialist to avoid later inspection hassles.
I have no doubt that a proper swirl pot system is a better technical solution to this problem, and if I had a solid metal bulkhead between me and the tank that extended up to include the area below the melamine rear parcel shelf, I would have this full set up in place. But for my intended use, the fuel pump and electrics outside the boot space, and a pick-up and well inside the tank leading to a single long fuel hose, is the best solution for me - RA23 with 1G-GZE.
Hope this helps you with ideas.
Cheers.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:22
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Ok the fuel tank has been started below are some pictures. The tank will have baffels internally aswell as a swirl pot. We will also have a external surge tank to finish off the whole package for those times when you need that little bit extra fuel.
Now in the boot of my car the jack area is going to be empty (not storing the jack there), so I would like to have some bling in there. I'm thinking about having a 4inch dia surge tank toward the front and then mounting the high pressure pump behind it. I could possibly have the lift pump in there as well. But I am still worried about the fuel smell. Mentioned above was silicon hoses, is anyone using these?
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:40
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I think above I was actually meant to ask if the silicon hoses would fix the fuel smell problem.
Now to the fuel system component side of things, how should I go about choosing a high pressure pump? Is there any formula to use?
For the lift pump, pretty much anything will do? Yeah?
Also in the last picture above, you can see the 6mm plate that was welded to the outer skin. This will be used for the threaded boss fittings.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:47
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KW x 8 = cc of fuel per minute required.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:48
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forgot to mention, if you use a rising rate regulator the flow rate of the pump will drop at higher fuel pressure (higher load on the pump).
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:52
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I will eventually be fitting a rising rate regulator. Does this mean I should get a higher pressure or higher flowing pump?
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 10:57
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you know a cheap and easy option?
VL pump:
zero flow restriction = 2.8L/m
flow at 40psi = 2.3L/m
so this pump is good for 290KW according to the above formula right?
so what you do if you plan to run more than say 250KW is run two of these in parallel. you could get a bigger pump but these are cheap and easy to come by, and have barbed fittings which i personally like better. ofcourse running two of these is a little more plumbing than a single pump. but its cheaper, and if one dies your car will still drive plenty good to get you home
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 11:11
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| Cool1 wrote on Thu, 30 September 2004 20:40 |
how should I go about choosing a high pressure pump? Is there any formula to use?
For the lift pump, pretty much anything will do?
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a decent sized walpro - norbie posted the name of a US based online seller on a thread a while ago - a bit of searching will locate it
and a VL lift pump from any decent wrecker? or a noisy solid state electric thing bolted just outside the alloy plate you've put in for threaded connections.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 11:13
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I have a VL pump here now which I was using for testing. I think I would rather use just one large pump to keep things simple.
My evil plan for the future is to have 300Kw at the wheels, so should I say that I need a pump to support say 400Kw to be safe? Or is this over kill? I just dont want to have to upgrade things again in the future
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 11:16
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well for 300KW youd want the pump to flow 2.4L/m.
if you get a pump that flows 3L/m, that would be able to support 375KW.
this is overkill but would definately do the job niceley.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 11:21
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Great, Thanks mate.
I'll do a search of the place norbie posted.
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I supported Toymods
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 13:05
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Thanks for that, but i'm having trouble finding an external pump there.
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Brisbane
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May 2002
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Thu, 30 September 2004 23:15
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Thats interesting. The link works here at my work but not at home
At home it takes me to a page that allows you to search for companys that sell performance shit
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 09:16
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Ok thanks for the link norbie, now does that same place sell lift pumps aswell or should I really be getting my eyes checked?If they dont where should I be looking for one and type would be suit my application?
Thanks. There are also some new pictures below
I deceided to have another 6mm plate on the side of the tank to leave me with the option for the fuel pickup.
This is a picture of the center baffel at the back of the tank.
This is a picture of the center baffel at the front of the tank.
This baffel is on the front corner fitted each side of the pick plates. There is also a baffel on the oppisite corner of the tank.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 09:16
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 13:09
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hey shane looking good mate!!! 
why did you put the reinforcement where the spare used to be? the H reinforcement
and is the drop going to be mounted to the chasis?
whats the fuel capacity of the tank?
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 13:51
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| fade-e wrote on Fri, 01 October 2004 23:09 |
hey shane looking good mate!!!
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Thanks mate.
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why did you put the reinforcement where the spare used to be? the H reinforcement
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The spare will be sitting on top of where the well used to be and I dont want it bouncing its way through Also I need the tank to sit away from the floor to allow for the fuel sender connection.
| Quote: |
and is the drop going to be mounted to the chasis?
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I'm not 100% sure what we are going to do with the mounting points, so i'll have to let you know about that one.
| Quote: |
whats the fuel capacity of the tank?
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Roughly between 60 and 65L
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 15:54
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Cool1 thats looking foine!! is that being MIG'd ot TIG'd.. can see the bottle in tha background but forget my colours
feel like making few more
Cya, Stewart
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Fri, 01 October 2004 23:17
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The tank was TIG'd but thats the MIG in the background that was used to weld the reinforcement under the back of the car.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Sat, 02 October 2004 00:46
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your gonna have plenty of room for a surge tank under the car next to the main tank.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Help me with some ideas(fueling)
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Sat, 02 October 2004 02:22
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Theres actually not as much room under the back as it looks. The fuel tank sits hard up against the chassis rails and goes all the way forward to that metal plate with the 8 holes in it. Also if I mount the surge tank under the car, it means I have to have the high pressure pump below this which I dont like the idea of
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