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Registered:
October 2002
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A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 01:33
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I have seen one electric turbo/supercharger idea for every revolution of the earth and they're all terrible for various reasons. It seems to me that there may actually be a potential for something there if it's not engineered by some sixteen year old in a backwards hat.
I raced 1/10th scale electric R/C cars for years and know of several motors which are rated at upwards of 50k RPMS at +7.2V DC, can handle up to +20V DC without much trouble and are torquy enough to drive a small compressor without needing a 100 amp alternator. An ACTUAL compressor, instead of the glorified computer fans most of the others more closely resemble. If even a consistent 3 or 4 PSI of intake pressure is possible, is this theory any less dead in the water?
The biggest problem that I can see would be the truly heroic lag as the turbine spools because of a lack in torque compared to a conventional turbo, but running on DC power, why couldn't the compressor be running virtually all the time and feed into a throttle or RPM switched electric valve? Suddenly, there's NO lag.
Just kicking ideas which are probably stupid,
Turkey
[Updated on: Mon, 07 October 2002 13:51]
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 02:18
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similar things have been done for years - problem is getting the airflow you need.
trick on motorbikes was to use a smog pump (airpump) as a low pressure supercharger. you would need several to be of any use on a car
T
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 02:25
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Real superchargers need LOTS of power to compress enough air to generate any sort of boost. Even a small one like an SC12 needs upwards of 10kW to spin at full song. There is simply no way a conventional electrical system can deliver that sort of power.
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Registered:
October 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 02:31
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"an SC12 needs upwards of 10kW"
Wow, I didn't expect it to be that high. You're totally right, there's no way that an electric motor of any reasonable size can do that without needing its own reactor.
I guess that's why all the electric-forced induction "solutions" out there are crap. Oh well.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 05:23
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You mean someone has acutally used the smog pump as a supercharger on a motorbike!!
lol i thought only I had crazy ideas like that...
ie. I could put it on my lawnmower and cut the grass twice as fast!
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 12:41
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Park your car in the driveway, take off the air filter, get someone to do a burnout and stick your finger in the air intake at the same time... theres a lot of air going in there huh? It takes a pretty serious fan to produce that kind of breeze!
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 13:30
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What about a bottle of compressed air? Similar to nitrous setup, but just to deliver boosted air pressure into intake. This would be easier and cheaper to refill than nitrous, and probably not require expensive ways of self-generating boost ....
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Wed, 02 October 2002 14:01
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Look at the size of the nozzle on a typical compressed air hose. Then look at the size of your inlet. Notice the difference? There's the problem with this idea. 
I heard about some crazy guy a while back who built drag cars which had enormous bottles of compressed air on board, which did the job of the supercharger without the associated parasitic losses (those big superchargers on proper drag cars consume hundreds of horsepower). Apparently it worked fairly well except the car ended up being so heavy that it wasn't competitive with conventional supercharged setups. The air tanks also had to be filled overnight to get enough air for a single pass - talk about a PITA!
Anyway the moral of the story: it works, but it's not practical - especially for a street car. Even if you had a big enough setup to produce a meaningful amount of boost (and it would have to be BIG), it would only last for a few seconds.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 00:31
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norbie, the compressed air thing worked - only it worked too well!! (heaps of HP!!) - hence it got banned.
if you use oxygen instead of compressed air you have a very powerful chemical supercharger setup... also a very dangerous one! (as compressed oxygen is very explosive)
link to the nutter with the air pump supercharger on the bike:http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/main.html
no idea if the link is still is current.....
T
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 00:45
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Oxygen itself isn't flammable. Its just that it is needed for the burning reaction. Hence a lot of ideas ie. NO2 and Cold Air Induction are all about giving the air as much oxygen content as possible. Obviously these are two of the extreme ends of the scale.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 01:00
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You could use compressed air with a regulator but even a large tank would only last 30secs or so. At least the air would be very cold!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 01:23
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just a small comment on oxygen, you can get a cup of liquid oxygen and light a match then stick the match into the liquid oxygen and it doesn't catch on fire all it does is enable the match to keep burning whilst under the "water look alike" liquid oxygen.
which proves its not an explosive but just one of the components needed to enable something to burn.
i may be wrong here but isn't it the hydrogen in the air which is the explosive part, the oxygen simply enables it to burn.?
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 01:29
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| GIN51E wrote on Thu, 03 October 2002 11:23 |
the oxygen simply enables it to burn.?
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I think the comment was that compressed oxygen is explosive (as is any compressed gas when you come to think of it)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 01:40
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| Lucid wrote on Thu, 03 October 2002 11:29 |
| GIN51E wrote on Thu, 03 October 2002 11:23 |
the oxygen simply enables it to burn.?
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I think the comment was that compressed oxygen is explosive (as is any compressed gas when you come to think of it)
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How about compressed CO'2?  is that explosive
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I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 02:23
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Tanks of compressed any gas will "explode" in a fire. With heat, the pressure within the tank gradually increases till it exceeds the strength of the tank and it ruptures ("explodes"). LPG tanks will actually explode as the gas may reach flash point temps within the tank, or, immediately upon rupture, the highly flammable gas explodes.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 04:24
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Pure oxygen is not explosive, but it is a very powerful oxidising agent - that's what makes it so dangerous. Almost anything will burn in the presence of pure oxygen, even certain metals. I'm pretty sure any engine running on pure oxygen, or even a very oxygen-rich mixture, would simply melt. Mind you, it would probably cause all sorts of mayhem before it even got to the combustion chambers, eg the slightest whiff of oil vapour in the inlet system will explode, and the fuel from the injectors will ignite as soon as it leaves the injector nozzles!
Oxygen does some pretty funky stuff, which is why you see all sorts of warning labels on an oxygen cylinder. There's no way I'd let pure O2 anywhere near my engine bay - a far safer way to acheive much the same result is nitrous oxide, which actually breaks down into O2 during the compression stroke of the engine. Nitrous oxide itself is a pretty inert gas so it's quite safe (ignoring the fact that it's stored at extremely high pressures).
GIN51E: the hydrogen content of the atmosphere is extremely small, which is a good thing otherwise the atmosphere would be highly explosive! The oxygen content is also quite small, less than 10% by mass IIRC. The majority of the atmosphere is composed of inert nitrogen.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 04:50
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Norbie, less than 0.1% in fact. ~79% nitrogen, ~21% oxygen ~ 1% the rest. yes yes...that adds to 100 (not 101  )
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 04:54
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| Norbie wrote on Thu, 03 October 2002 14:24 |
Oxygen does some pretty funky stuff, which is why you see all sorts of warning labels on an oxygen cylinder
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if you think of a deisel motor that "self combusts" the diesel fuel on compression. if you were to release compressed oxygen into your engine it would have to be extremely clean (free of oil) around the oxygen injector otherwise your inlet tract would quite literally explode  probably taking the bonnet off your car doing a huge amount of damage like a stick of dynamite. Deasel motors use around 16:1 compression ratio compared to 15000:1 in an oxygen cylinder.(yes thats 15000 atmospheres) so thats an idea of how dangerous it is.
BUT. if used correctly i think it would be of huge benefit similar to NOS but more effective as the O2 content is higher although it wouldn't be as nice to your engine , because there is no nitrogen acting as a buffer against pinging 
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 08:00
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Great, so who's up for trying it?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 09:56
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put it up on the fast fours forum and i'm sure some idiot will try it 
of course any thing which is stored in a compressed state is capable of exploding but i was saying its not the "oxygen" exploding its the cylinder, where other combustable materia;s will explode causing the cylinder to explode.
if i am making any sense with that dribble?
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 10:35
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I had a simmilar idea a while back, O2 injection. I pusted it on the suck-thru systems Yahoo groups because they seemed to be discussing alternate means of adding power at the time. my idea was this, have electricity that your car produces break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, then, using an AC compressor or something simmilar, store this in an onboard tank (only small). This can be activated like NOS with a switch. The idea was, the engine will loose a little power whilst it is generating oxygen but then you'd get the power back in one hit when you're next to a ricer at the lights!! Everyone pointed out all the same shit, explosions and stuff...but I still think it'd work, just dont compress pure oxygen, allow some normal air into it as well so it's like 30% (same as NOS right?) Id be free!! just fill up the water now and again!
Tim.
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 21:43
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| RA28 wrote on Thu, 03 October 2002 20:35 |
I had a simmilar idea a while back, O2 injection. I pusted it on the suck-thru systems Yahoo groups because they seemed to be discussing alternate means of adding power at the time. my idea was this, have electricity that your car produces break down water into hydrogen and oxygen, then, using an AC compressor or something simmilar, store this in an onboard tank (only small). This can be activated like NOS with a switch. The idea was, the engine will loose a little power whilst it is generating oxygen but then you'd get the power back in one hit when you're next to a ricer at the lights!! Everyone pointed out all the same shit, explosions and stuff...but I still think it'd work, just dont compress pure oxygen, allow some normal air into it as well so it's like 30% (same as NOS right?) Id be free!! just fill up the water now and again!
Tim.
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The idea may be good, but what are you going to do with the by-product of Hydrogens? There's twice as many of these compared to the oxygen, so if you let these built up under the engine bay... wooohoooo...
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 22:59
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when you go the electrolosis route u can build your electrolosis tank/container in a "U" shape with an electrode in each end of the U that way u will split the gasses up, so sending the hydrogen into your engine will not be dangerous, problems is that u need a safe way to dispose of the oxygen.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Thu, 03 October 2002 23:44
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Electrolysis is a very inefficient way of generating hydrogen - you'd need massive amounts of current to produce enough hydrogen. Of course this would place a huge strain on the engine, much more than you'd gain through burning the hydrogen. There's no escaping the laws of thermodynamics...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 00:16
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whats nitrogen? because we have two tanks of it sitting in the back shed 
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 00:36
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Nitrogen is an inert gas which means it doesn't really react with anything, so it isn't flammable or anything. But Nitrogen compounds are fairly reactive and are used for things like Nos, rocket-fuel and explosives.
Ever heard of a fertilizer bomb? It uses a nitrogen compound.
But this is getting off the subject...
I heard of a guy who has a Skyline and wanted to put a air-horn compressor on his car and hook it up to the intake!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 00:48
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The nitrogen in NOS doesn't really react. Using NOS as far as I know just releases a really concentrated oxygen burst...
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 08:17
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ok cool, never knew what the stuff was, all i know is its my brothers and therfor it must have something to do with air conditioning, maybe i can spray it on the intake to cool it
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 09:14
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Norbie, I know NOS is a brand of N02 I wrote it before, seems people around here understand you better when you say it that way 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 09:19
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The analogy to using compressed oxygen - just look at oxy-acetylene torches. When you just use only acetylene - you get a big flame, but not very hot at the tip. When you have the oxygen on, the combustion is much faster. The same amount of acetylene reacts with oxygen (burns) but it does so much faster. More heat at the tip, but a smaller flame. Total energy is determined by your fuel, but the rate of combustion is determined by the oxidation agent available.
If you had an compressed oxygen supercharger, you could create power in quantities that depend on the rate you can deliver fuel and the stoichiometric amount of oxygen to the cylinder. Pure oxygen has roughly FIVE times the oxygen compared to the same volume/pressure of air . You would theoretically be able to get five times as much power without changing boost. That power would place great strain on cooling systems and liberate piston cooking heat. It is exactly like using a rocket engine to create pressure to move the pistons.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Fri, 04 October 2002 23:44
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Yeah I know electrolisis is inefficient, the idea was to have it on while you're going to the shops and shit, times when you aren't using the power, then you can hit it, and have an extra fuel injector (as in a nos system) to add the right ammount of extra fuel for the extra oxygen and it'd go! With the hydrogen, I'd just have an air pump pumping it out of the engine (or you could store it as well, then you'd have exactly the right ammount of fuel to add to the extra oxygen, also, the combustion would creat water, which would cool the engine a bit and also clean all the carbon out!!)
NOS gives you more power for 2 reasons, it cools down the intake air heaps (because it needs all the energy stored as heat to change from a liquid to a gas) and you also add more fuel because NOS is 30% oxygen, way more than air, so you can add more fuel, thus get more power.
Tim.
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 01:29
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No. You've got it the wrong way around... You get Hydrogen from water by a reaction with an alkaline material - such as bicarb soda. The product of combusting Hydrogen would be something like carbon tri-hydride.
P.S. a hydrogen powered car has been developed. And will eventually be available for retail purchase... Hydrogen will be available at the petrol stations. (as creating the amount of hydrogen needed to power your car would take a long time to do at home.)
And just to clear up the nitrous oxide debate there are a few different types of nitrous oxides; N20 NO NO2
NOS - Nitrous Oxide Systems Inc.
Is not a brand name of nitrous, but a manufacturer of nitrous injection systems, nitrous is availiable to buy from your local BOC gases retailer, etc. But most of you already know this.
Also OZNOS a good nitrous system, cheaper because no import levies and taxes etc.
Recommended reading:
US http://www.magnumforceracing.com/store4/nitrous/ni trous_techdata.htm
AU http://www.ozrace.com/faq.html
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 05:12
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Hydrogen and oxygen are produced by electrolysis.
Combust hydrogen and you get water and small amounts of compounds based around C and N etc.
Check out the Space shuttle taking off, all the white stuff coming out of the arse of it is steam!! It burns H and O in the rocket motor.
For all you blokes that reckon oxygen won't explode check out what happens in a space craft or a decompression chamber if you get a spark!!!
Suprised nitromethane hasn't been mentioned, that's the best way to introduce and control oxygen in an engine. Top Fuel drag cars don't just make horsepower through boost.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 06:13
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just to be different what about a high powered
eletric leave blower? used as sort of s/c
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 06:20
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Yeh, leaf blowers are cheap but it would cost a fortune for the power cord!!
Could strap one to a skate board and use it like a jet engine though.
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 06:26
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| Blown86 wrote on Mon, 07 October 2002 15:12 |
For all you blokes that reckon oxygen won't explode check out what happens in a space craft or a decompression chamber if you get a spark!!!
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its physically impossible for pure O2 to explode if its not compressed
as burning or an explosion is the rapid oxidation of a substance
therefore you cant "burn" oxygen without the presence of a flammable substance. Oxygen is totally NOT flammable!!
Ask a chemist or anyone who paid attention in high school science.
but on that point whats the go with nitromethane? is it similar to methanol but more potent? anyone?. i know a friend uses it in mixtures of up to 70%Nitro with methanol in a 2 stroke model boat engine so anyone that has any experience with it i want to know.as do the rest of you
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Location:
Victoria
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September 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 06:46
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by electrolysis do you mean making an arc of electricity such as a Jacob's Ladder or Taser would create? The only thing I'm aware that it creates is O3 (ozone).
But if you are correct about hydrogen burning to create water then you could use the exhaust to create more fuel.
And as for Nitromethane...
All well and good for a top fuel dragster... but, most of the cars we're talking about the owners want to keep them reasonably streetable and reliable.
Nitromethane doesn't introduce or control oxygen in the engine, it just burns using less oxygen.
Nitromethane uses ~4 times more fuel:air than normal petrol this means you will have to run larger fuel lines and pumps.
Nitromethane is also fairly expensive.
around $3 per Litre. (Tell me if you know where I can get it cheaper.)
Here's an example... In my car using Nitromethane I'd pay ~$150 for a tank of fuel that would take me ~100-200kms. Sure you'd get there a hell of a load quicker, but I'm not that fussy about being at work on time, dunno about you.
I have heard of Methanol being used on a street car, this is about 2 times more fuel:air than normal petrol.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 07:19
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Your right.
I was using the analogy of the space craft and decompression chamber, where there are documented accounts of explosions ie rapid oxidation. Of course there was combustible material to oxidise.
Not as with an oxygen only container.
Probably out of context.
Nitromethane (guess what, inflammable)
CH3NO2
53% oxygen by weight
usually mixed with methanol to make it go bang and release the O2.
Air/fuel ratio ~2.5:1
Acetone is another goody, methanol of course, nitrobenzene.
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Location:
Newcastle NSW
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 07:22
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Electrolysis is the process of passing an electric current thru a liquid to separate either ions or actually split the liquid into its basic elements. but it requires alot of power and time to make the amounts needed in a combustion engine.
as for the leaf blower, it is possible to use one as an electric turbo however, you need an inverter to take the 12V of the car to 240V of the blower BUT you need an inverter capable of producing the Wattage that the blower needs which i havent seen one capable of producing 1500watts and if they were assailable they would weigh HEAPS!!!! although they may be able to run on the 100-150 watts of an average inverter they probably wouldn't spin fast enough to make any boost then.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 07:40
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Wow! I think we've just solved the worlds energy crisis! If we just electrolise the water we get H2 and O2, then we burn them (ie recombining the H2 and O2) and we get water which we electrolise with the energy from combustion..........lo and behold a perpetual motion machine! This reminds me of a friend who had this great idea of a syphon pump for his fish tank. All you do is you syphon water into a tank, let gravity pull it through a filter, then syphon it back! Amazing! He didn't realise that water must ultimately run downhill. Now you know why Einstien threw all the applications for patents on perpetual motion machines straight in the bin without even reading them.
Getting back on topic though, it isn't a totally stupid idea. In about 1994 I remember reading a US magazine about a similar thing from Turbodyne systems or something. They used a big electric motor (a bit smaller than a starter motor I think) to spool up the turbo when the boost was low. Heat was a problem for the motor but I think they got it sorted. Ultimately you still can't create energy from nothing but an electric motor is about 80%-90% efficient which is pretty good.
If you want info on the Turbodyne thing I'll try and dig it up. I still have the mag somewhere. I seem to remember them being associated with the Vector supercar I think.
Interesting stuff though. Hey, has anyone tried plumbing those old whipped cream N2O bulbs into their carby? It wouldn't last long but it might be a bit of fun!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 08:20
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its pointless thinking about new forms of fuel to save the planet, take the fuel cell for example, creates more polution making the cell then the cell saves, at the moment we are currently using the best fuel source we have, once someone is able to produce these fuels with-out pumping out such large amounts of pollution in doing so. thats when we will start to use them,
same as solar cells, most of the solar cells that have been made are never going to be used enough to pay back for the amount of energy used in making them in the first place.
as for the leaf blower, easy problem solved, get a 2 stroke one and not an electric one.
[Updated on: Mon, 07 October 2002 08:29]
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 09:31
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Not 100% sure but isn't trying to get energy out of water by splitting the hydrogen and oxygen along the lines of Cold Fusion?? and this being one of the biggest mysteries to science.
Or did i just miss read everything above.... prolly why i failed chemistry
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 11:40
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nah your splitting molecules not atoms
besides fusion is making atoms... something no one has ever managed to achieve... its definately possible tho.. the SUN is a perfect example.
fisson is what the yanks use to power all of their crappy light bulbs... they bust atoms apart..
we cant even do it with decent atoms so they have to use crappy uranium.. nice byproducts.
now HERE is a stupid idea..
why dont we use really small turbine engines in cars.. coupled to a viscous gearbox.. picture a shaft turning in a liquid.. and the turbine rotates at a constant high RPM speed with no load.. when you press on the gas fins come out of the rotating shaft and cause the liquid to spin in the "box".. which is then transferred to teh tailshaft..
i just need to get my hands on a turbine... perhaps bin laden can hook me up with a cheap 2nd hand one.
oh and I failed chemistry too
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 12:45
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| AbaddonGZE wrote on Mon, 07 October 2002 21:40 |
nah your splitting molecules not atoms
besides fusion is making atoms... something no one has ever managed to achieve... its definately possible tho.. the SUN is a perfect example.
fisson is what the yanks use to power all of their crappy light bulbs... they bust atoms apart..
we cant even do it with decent atoms so they have to use crappy uranium.. nice byproducts.
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fusion was actually discovered before fission, and fission cannot be started without fusion, fusion is combining atoms, by heating tritium and deuterium (2 types of hydrogen) up to a point when they bang together real hard, the 2 atoms will combine, releasing some big amount of energy, fission is splitting the atoms of heavy metals like Uranium and Plutonium (they are great choice because of their huge necleus and will split relatively easily when an atom charge in it at some thousands degrees celcius), but it needs so much energy to start the chain reaction, so a fusion bomb has to be implanted into a fission bomb to start the reaction..
mixed up fusion and fission, so the above have been correct now..
there's no point in trying to split Hydrogen and Oxygen in water, because the law of conservation of energy states (or the law of nature states) you cannot get something out of nothing (damn! ) to split Hydrogen and Oxygen from its bond, you'll need high amount of electricity, by producing this amount of energy, there are energy being lost as heat and sound, and while burning the Hydrogen with Oxygen to combine it into water, more heat and sound will be lost, therefore there will not be much kinetic energy (exploding force) left, you will not be able to trap/keep all those energy efficient enough, as most will be lost by heat..
[Updated on: Mon, 07 October 2002 17:58]
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 12:51
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uhh actually fusion has been achieved momentarily (like thousands or less of a second) but the energy released is so huge that u need to use a magnetic field to contain the plasma so it doesn't instantly vaporise the metal container.
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we cant even do it with decent atoms so they have to use crappy uranium
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uranium is used because its readily available and relatively cheap BUT also because the large the molecule the more energy is released. besides all elements from number 83 upwards are radioactive, and alot of lower ones (lead, gold, cobalt, etc)have radioactive isotopes as well. plutonium is even better... but then we all know its even more deadly - so its a compromise. like all forms on energy.
cold fusion is just trying to fusion H atoms at room temperature instead of millions of °C.
sorry i know its completely off topic
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 13:42
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Also remember one rule,
Energy is never lost, it just changes into another form,
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 17:19
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Also remember one rule,
Energy is never lost, it just changes into another form,
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(law of conservation of energy)
The only exception is nuclear reaction, there seems to be some kind of extra (plenty extra.. ) energy generated by splitting or combining atoms, but it may be because an atom's actually got more than we think it has, ie, it may have more than just protons, neutrons and electrons, there's probably many many smaller "matter" that we haven't found, and they're bloody full of energy as we noticed in a nuclear reaction... 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 22:55
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The energy from a nuclear reaction comes from converting mass into energy, ie the by-products of nuclear fission weigh slightly less than what went into it in the first place. The exact amount of energy released is determined by Einstein's famous formula, E = MC2. In other words, the released energy is equal to the "missing" mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light.
And thus ends todays physics lesson.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Mon, 07 October 2002 23:32
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Trekies got it right....matter vs antimatter. Clean, lots of energy, just too much of that pesky gamma radiation.
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 00:06
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Now all we've gotta do is make a leafblower powered by a cold-fusion reactor and hook it up to the intake!!
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 01:56
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Screw that, I'm gonna sell all my old barrels of enriched uranium to Saddam in exchange for a few million barrels of oil, conveniently converted into high octane fuel...
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 01:57
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damn, did Mum throw out my barrels of enriched uranium? I KNEW I shouldna left them under my bed, glowing in the dark like that! I wonder where they are now...
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 01:58
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*three eyed possum looks on*
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 02:50
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someone was bored
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Location:
Adelaide and Queenstown T...
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 05:16
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I think BMW is working on essentially a closed circuit fuel system where you fill the car with water. You have an onboard battery pack which converts the water to hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis and then they are recombined in the engine through the normal combustion process and stored on board again for re-processing, starting with water- ending up with water. this way you keep the benefits of a liquid fuel that is easily transportable, benefits of a combustion engine that is durable and proven technology, you charge your car at home which is ideally supplied with strong base load power from a Nuclear plant- which has the ideal load characteristics. You are then using the most efficient energy sources for each process, the only problem is the battery weight and the range of the vehicle.
Those clever Germans hey, think of everything. As long as they can fit it to the v8 in my M5 (I wish!) I will be happy.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 11:45
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BMW have developed their cars to run on both hydrogen and petrol. They havent as yet said they are going to work on the electrolysis for the car though. They have set up solar power stations which they use for electrolysis and powering the plants which turn it into liquid hydrogen. There are also liquid hydrogen filling stations in locations throughout Germany.
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: A really stupid idea, but hear me out...
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Tue, 08 October 2002 15:48
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E=mc^2 is just a theory, I don't think anyone can prove it right or not, it's just a good estimate, but I never heard this formula mentioned with "nuclear reaction", what I know is, the formula means, to have something the mass of M moving at the speed of light, you'll need E amount of energy.. I thought the formula's got to do with time travel?
back to the car..
I used to have an idea of having generators in the car, powered by steam, since heat is such a huge by-product of combustion, the extra heat could be used to boil water into pipes of turbines, generating electricity, then we could have a smaller alternator, or an electro clutch controlling the load on the motor from the alternator, if it produces enough power (I'm not sure how much power can be generated from these "extra heat") we could even use it to power the air-conditioner?
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