Author | Topic |

Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 11:36
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Howdy guys, i've been looking at what it'll take to stick a 1ggte into my RA28, dad suggested it'd be a good little engine, however we happen to have a 22R at home, on an engine stand, thought it needs repairs, alternator mounting hole is busted (it's a boss, and it's cracked) plus it needs re-assembling, and other such work... what i'd like to know is:
a) do either of these engines bolt up to the celica 5-speed?
b) which engine would be cheaper to achieve a power goal of say... 150-200Kw, i know the later model 1g's come with about 150Kw standard.. which is why i wonder what it'll take to get the 22r to that standard... or above...
another thing... 'cause i'm looking at doing this on a TIGHT budget, would it be possible to put in a 1ggte, leave it standard, so i could upgrade things like brakes, diff and g'box at a later date... or is that just a real bad idea??
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Location: VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered: July 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 11:41

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hrmmm. you are in a bit of a pickle.
provided the 22r wouldnt cost you too much money to fix up, id look into it, work out whats required, and do it. this is assuming you dont have a car to drive, but you have your licence, yaddah yaddah, etc.
if this is a project car, i would take the time, save up the money, and chuck in the 1ggte, it would be a shitload easier and cheaper to produce power from.
Cheers,
James.
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I supported Toymods
Location: Perth
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 11:46

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I'd be going 1G no doubt. By the time you piss-farted around with freshening up the 22R, fitting it, constructing the turbo mainfold, finding a decent turbo then the ECU to run it, you'd have the 1GGTE running with the factory ECU and the power you want.
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 12:01

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yeah, that's my thinking, but at the moment, the car is running fine, albeit with the somewhat asthmatic 18rc donk... if you push it to about 4grand you can keep up with cars from the lights, and that's general traffic... not other "sports cars", but for now it's my day to day car... but i'd like it to be a little quicker you know... nothing MONSTOROUS, just a little special give other people the look... anyway enough playing with the pics... i thought it'd be stupid to just assume the 1g was the engine of choice... without looking at the 22r as a possibility, i've seen the yanks do some pretty crazy $#!+ with the 22r, but i'm sure they're pouring bucket loads of dough into them... and i looked at another thread where they discussed basically this same topic, and they had little to say about the 22r favourably, 'cept for the fact they like boost...
does anyone know how if the standard diff/brakes/g'box would hold up to the (relativily raw) power of the 1ggte? is it possible to just bolt the 1g to the celica box?
does anyone know of a similar celica with a 22r?
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 12:09

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First of all, don't waste your time with a 22R. With enough time and money it will make the power you want, but we're talking a LOT of money. By contrast, a stock-as-a-rock 1G-GTE will get your car into the 13's with no fuss, and you get factory idle quality, cold start and fuel economy. You can be sure a built 22R wouldn't be that user-friendly.
No the 1G won't bolt up to the Celica box (W50), but that's not a big deal if you buy your 1G in a front-cut as it will come with a gearbox attached (W58) which will fit in your Celica with little effort. It's a much nicer box to boot.
As for the factory diff, it will snap like a twig with any decent sort of power. Budget for a diff upgrade. Brakes are barely adequate for an 18R, so I'd strongly recommend upgrading at least the front brakes. Do a search and you'll find heaps of info specific to Celica diff and brake upgrades; they're both popular topics around here!
BTW I have an RA23 Celica so I've been through all of this already, although for my own reasons I've decided to go in a different direction for the powerplant: turbo 18R-GEU. 
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I supported Toymods
Location: Perth
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 12:34

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hickoz_bro wrote on Tue, 19 October 2004 20:01 | i've seen the yanks do some pretty crazy $#!+ with the 22r
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The reason for that is the lack of availability of engines like a 1G. They work with what they've got and polish the 22R turd.
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Location: Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Tue, 19 October 2004 23:50

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I don't believe there's a question. If the car isnt' driven every day, for gods sake, do yourself a favour and go the 1g-gte..
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 21 October 2004 13:04

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well i plan on using the car as a daily driver... so reliability, economy etc etc, is really important, so is power of course, but improving on the standard 18rc isn't hard.
atm i'm leaning toward a 1ggte, but i don't wanna go ahead with it, and find out that i coulda used the 22r, achieved the same result, or better with half the trouble, or dough
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 22 October 2004 00:08

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Well you couldn't, it's as simple as that. You'll be way ahead of the game if you start with a 1G.
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Location: Northwestern Sydney
Registered: August 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 22 October 2004 00:25

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The 1G-GTE would be the best bang for buck, If you plan to do alot of the work yourself, Start with a front cut to give you all the little parts that add up down the track, sort out the crossmember and wire up the loom. for around the 150rwkw out of the box. you'll be looking around the $2500 for a front cut but you can pick up an engine/GB/loom package for around the $1500 mark and find you own Intercooler setup etc.
I have nothing against the 22R personally but in this case you'll be pushing the relms of budget to get the same from a 22R
the simplest way (besides NAWS) to get 150rwkw from one would be to go turbo and a quick think about prices starts to make the 1G look really good.
Custom turbo manifold ~ $900
Turbo to suit application ~ $1000 (?)
Piping for oil lines ~ $200
Forged Pistons/rings ~ $800
Computer to control it ~ $1500
I/C + piping ~ $600
Right there you are around the 4k mark.
Sure it would be a great engine but not really in the budget compared to the 1G.
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Location: Sydney
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 22 October 2004 04:28

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and you end up with a single cam truck motor.
1g all the way
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Location: townsville NQLD
Registered: February 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 22 October 2004 10:09

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is that how much the 1g front cuts cost approximately, $2500?
is $2500 a reasonable price
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: September 2003
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Sat, 23 October 2004 08:41

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yeah, i intend doing most of the work my self, with alot of help from the old man, he's a mechanic lucky me...
i was considering doing the upgrade backwards, upgrade the diff brakes, and suspension first, then do the g'box, and engine... that way i can still drive it safely, and it won't be off the road for too long...
it shouldn't take more then a weekend to stick a diff, brakes and suspension into it should it? how much work is involved in upgrading front discs?
and how do i get incontact with brendon
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Sat, 23 October 2004 10:33

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hickoz_bro wrote on Sat, 23 October 2004 18:41 | it shouldn't take more then a weekend to stick a diff, brakes and suspension into it should it?
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Um... yes.
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Location: Madrid - Spain
Registered: August 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Sun, 24 October 2004 09:09

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Definitly do the brakes first.....
Contrary to popular opinion, the T series will hold a standard 1G as long as you don't drive it like you want to break it. For me I tend to punish mine so any open centre doesn't seem to last too long regardless of the size. Locking a T series is bound to break an axle soon enough, ragardless of the engine.
Then I would go for a 1G. I have driven a fair few cars and I think the 1G is a great little engine.
Oh and a general rule of thimb is for an engine conversion, rough out what it will cost you and double that and you will get close.
Don't forget exhaust (including cat), fuel system, wiring, intercooler and piping, fabrication of mounts, Engineering etc. then there is all the other bits like washer and overflow bottles new spark plugs, belts, fluids, nuts and bolts and anything else that might pop up.
Having said that I love driving my 1G RA28 and all in all it is still a fairly cheap "performance" car that will show most others a clean pair of tail lights.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: September 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Sun, 24 October 2004 12:19

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curiously, is there any reason why you haven't thought of an 18RG as maybe an interim solution to your funds for a 1G.
there would be virtually nothing to it, bolt it up to your existing gearbox and at least have a slight bit more power while you save, and still better than doing up the 22r probably.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: September 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 08:49

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Hickoz bro
PM: SNYPER to get in touch with brendon
Doin suspension and brake upgrade first would definately be a good idea. Ide count on spending a couple of weekends doing the upgrades unless you have a stack of mates to help out.
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 12:41

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gold28 - good to hear from someone who's been there and done that... i've just met a fella at work and he's almost got his car back from having a 1GGTE conversion, he drives a RA23 celica, and is a member of the local celica club, so i'm gathering a pool of knowledge, perhaps it may just happen, will have to see.
btw he's running the standard diff to atm, but i think he said he plans an upgrade at some stage
barned01 - yeah, i kinda gave that a thought... don't suppose you'd know of prices for one of them? but i kinda thought if i spend money on that just 'till i can afford a 1G conversion, then it's money lost from the word go... but i can get it back later i guess... hmmm worth a thought...
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Location: u.s.a. south
Registered: April 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 15:27

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its amusing how this 'pepsi generation' frowns upon truck motors.
The way its done here, if u have a 22re;
custom exhaust mani ~$450
used injectors free - $60
used ct26 turbo from 7m ~$100-200
u.s. standalone $850 (you guys may have cheaper options, no?)
steel hard line/ cltoth-rubber drain, under $50
fmic & piping cost the same, either motor
I would put this up against any 1G on stock turbos/ecu.
when ready to upgrade, go for pistons/rings $400
(some bore and freshen the motor, others run std 'drop-in' replacements as the blocks hardly wear on some apps, even as old as they are)
ct26 hybrid cost ~$450 usd, good for 400hp/400tq and the internal wastegate still controls boost fine.
here's a celica, laiden down with audio gear and on street tires. 14psi is low boost for 7.2:1. US models weigh considerably more also.
http://www.sdsefi.com/features/sept00celica.htm
here's an even heavier truck done up
http://www.sdsefi.com/features/sept01toy.htm
see another sohc 'truck motor'. $850 standalone tuned by the owner... his first attempt at tuning himself! $200 TRUCK turbo, $150 truck intercooler. weighs ~2800#
Daily driven, built on a budget.
http://www.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ub b=get_topic;f=2;t=033148;p=1
Bring your performance motors and get ready for a 10.8sec embarrassment session. I'm sorry for u when he sprays it.
truck motors and parts more useful than u think... torque, baby!
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I supported Toymods
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: December 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 15:40

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Truck motors? Hmmmm, is that why the USA is stockpiling their oil reserves?!!!
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 15:42

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the difference is in "potential" and "ease of doing it"
would you rather..
22R, 2.4L single cam 4 cyl, converted to turbo..
OR
1GGTE, 2L twin turbo 6cyl factory motor.
OR (as a fairer comparison )
1JZGTE, 2.5L turbo 6cyl.
if we are talking torque, a 6cyl will have smoother torque than 4cyl.
whilst the 22R will make the numbers, a 1GG will also do it and do it easily, smoothly and still be a happy car to drive around...
heck a 3TC turbo makes good numbers and times (as we all know) but they aint daily drivers 
Cya, Stewart
not bagging the 22R, just the 1GG is more refined and "better"
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Location: u.s.a. south
Registered: April 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Wed, 27 October 2004 19:00

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>>"is that why the USA is stockpiling their oil reserves?!!!"
and moreso related to their 4-5000 pound vehicles too. heheh
if u want refinement, go the inline6. NO arguement there.
If you 'think' u will leave the 1g AS IS, go for it.
U take off the gloves (meaning; ecu + mani + turbo), the 22r will kick its arse and will make more power - neither is 'easier' at that level. Got that ?
>>"OR (as a fairer comparison ) 1JZGTE, 2.5L turbo 6cyl"
Title reads 1g OR 22r.... thats what I spoke to. Why stop there ? go 2J since you're pulling out all the stops to make a point.
what is "smoother torque" ?
>>"1GG will still be a happy car to drive around"
...and a turbo 22r is not ?
>>"heck a 3TC turbo makes good numbers and times (as we all know) but they aint daily drivers "
what world r u from ? Thats FAR from the case around here.
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 01:56

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"Guest", you need to be aware that this is not the good ol' US of A, and things might work differently in other parts of the world. Yes a built 22R makes a lot of sense where you're from, but that's mostly because you don't have easy access to more modern alternatives. That doesn't mean it's the best option in Australia or elsewhere!
For starters no-one makes performance parts for 22R's over here, and if you start bringing bits over from the US it starts getting very expensive very quickly (take a look at the exchange rate, not to mention customs etc). Meanwhile, the 1G does everything you want right out of the box, and there are dozens of people you can talk to locally who have done the same thing. It makes sense to me... maybe you need to drop your one-man 22R crusade and look at things from a different perspective?
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: September 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 07:12

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From what Ive seen from American motor shows, all it takes to make a good car over there is an Acura or other front wheel drive, lots and lots of vinyl and some bling rims.

Definately stick with the 1ggte. Why bother mucking around modifying an out of date engine and trying to source or custom make parts for it, when you can go down the road to your local Jap import wrecker and pickup a complete engine and gbox package for under $2k that will do everything you want and be simple and cheap to modify?
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Location: u.s.a. south
Registered: April 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 08:18

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Guys,
I'm just stirring the pot and having a little fun.... only to make u aware, if nothing else.
I really don't care a whole lot what anybody decides to build. I'm certainly not here to convince.
Most folks r brainwashed into thinking u can't take 'non-performance' motors and go ridiculously fast with LESS money - smart *open minded* people have proved that countless times. To say a sohc 'truck motor' is not worth modifying is plain silly imo. I'll leave it at that.
..and to clear up a few things;
>>"you don't have easy access to more modern alternatives"
Dead wrong on that
>>"For starters no-one makes performance parts for 22R's over here"
Only pistons are 22r specific and needed for a 'heavy hittin' 22r.
Instead of $$pending on performance parts, I've seen some folks buy up cheap spare motors from the junkyards, learn/sharpen their tuning skills, and boost 'em until they pop then stick in another. Does this approach work ? Trust me, u don't wanna meet up with these guys on the street or strip, they live to spoil your day 
We starion guys send/receive parts from australia often. U have goodies
I won't change my mindset. No need to.
I've done EXACTLY what you're saying by replacing the 'truck motor' dohc 2.4 from my u.s 240sx, with a ca18det even tho I know a turbo ka24de torque will destroy a CA/SR, mod for mod, dollar for dollar.
Why ? I wanted something plug n play right then and couldn't be bothered, even tho I do all my fabricating and tuning. No regrets... and besides, I had no intention on keeping the car or making a monster outta it. It made more sense to me too, yes
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Location: Madrid - Spain
Registered: August 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 09:59

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Guest,
I happen to agree with you on doing up a truck motor to some extent. One of my favourite cars, the Valiant Charger (distant and smaller relation to a Dodge Charger) is fitted with a 6 cylinder "truck motor" and ran a 14.3 sec 1/4mile straight from the factory in 1972.
However.
The celica you posted up ran a 14.8 1/4 on street rubber. My RA28 with standard 1G and standard 1G intercooler ran a 9.2sec 1/8th mile on street tyres. That is roughly equivalent to a 13.8-13.9 second 1/4 mile time. The engine cost me $700 and it is standard bar a $50 bleed valve on the turbo.
For us to turbo a 22r here would require a minimum of say $3000 and that only gets us to a standard 1G performance.
Oh and the truck has had a lot more than a couple of grand spent on it. Put that money into a 1G celica and your looking at a 10 second 1/4.
You are right a bigger motor should net you better torque and more power, but how much money are you prepared to throw at it.
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 13:05

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if it was a smooth torque curve i was after i'd just "drop" in a jag 5.3V12... simple as that
i think i'm pretty much convinced that the 1g is for me... just for now i gotta figure out a REALLY cheap way of doing it...
thinking perhaps if i just get it and the g'box drop them in, wind the boost right back until i've upped the brakes and suspension, or just save up my pennies, tidy the car up, then just do it all in one hit... hmmm... will have to think 'bout it, what has other people done here? i presume you guys that have done it, didn't have to save up ya pennies from nothing, and if so i bet money wasn't so tight...
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Location: u.s.a. south
Registered: April 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Thu, 28 October 2004 16:52

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gold28,
well done. Excellent decision! I made it exactly clear, under what conditions I would go 1G. I also outlined what stock piston'd 22r setup I would challange any 1G with.
A few points...
Its ok to say what your car coulda, woulda done, but.... u know
You do realize that the car with the most torque is more disadvantaged on street tires, eh ?
U could also have more seat time/ be a better driver etc..
That celica is substantially heavier than your car I'd guess.
12psi on 7.2:1 is nothing, especially for that turbo that doesn't start to go nuts until ~20+psi. You put in forged 7.2s and run a turbo of that size, 13sec ETs and low boost are not what you're aiming at - dust off that credit card if u wanna play at that level.
show me that full weight, daily driven 10sec 1G recipee and I'd bet its way more $$$ than the stock block 2.3 I posted.
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Location: Sydney
Registered: May 2002
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 29 October 2004 00:37

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the only thing a 22r is ever going have over a 1g is .4 of a litre. and if your going opening up the motor a 1g can easily be made to 2.2L but hell. you dont even need to open up the motor till well and truely after 450rwhp
efi20l, phils old car is currently runng 350+rwhp and thats with stock 150,000km pistons and rings and stock head gasket and stock cams the head hasnt even been off it.
cam gears
management
intercooler
turbos and plenum
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 29 October 2004 07:19

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bugman - in all seriousness, you could make 350hp out of a 200000k 1600cc if you wanted to, it prolly wouldn't last it's maiden trip, but you'd have done it... getting huge horsepower out of a worn out engine isn't very smart... infact the first word that comes to mind is stupid... don't mean to start a flame war, i'm sure there are engines out there that would handle it fine, but if it's worn out, your just sticking salt in the wound so to speak...
guest - okay, heres the deal, you figure out how much it would cost to do a 1ggte conversoin on your side of the globe, and compare it to the cost for us to do the same... then compare it to the cost of us doing a 22r conversion... the point is while it might make perfect sense for you to do a 22r conversoin 'cause all the parts are readily available, and you've got a bunch of people who have done it all before, it ain't the same here... we've got people who've done it all with a 1g, i'm sure it ain't the same there... see what i'm getting at? in this case, there IS a different set of rules...
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Location: VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered: July 2003
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Re: 22R, or 1GGTE???
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Fri, 29 October 2004 07:57
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I am suprised this is still being discussed!
Hickoz - You know u want the 1ggte, nice stuff. If I were you i would try to sell ur 22re to someone ie. hilux owner searching for replacement engine or something like that... Make some money off that to go towards the conversion.
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