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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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building 4age
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Wed, 20 October 2004 05:49
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hi
im hoping someone here can help me out, i have a bigport jap 4age which im gonna use as a base and have a decent motor built out of it, for now im looking at geting firstly the bottom end done and some head work, just set it all up so later i can drop cams and computer into it, what would u guys recomend for a bottom end, i have the bigport bottom end but if the advantages of a 100kw one are sufficient i can change. Im just looking at some insight into what parts to use to make a high reving bulletproof bottom end
so
pistons? go drop forged or not?
con rods? some say use 20v ones, some say use standard and shot peen them, others say go billet ones
Compresion? how high can u go on standard computer without being silly?
Bearings? whats the best?
Crank? Is standard good enough? what should i have done to it to make it better
Head? i heard the ports on the big port head dont need grinding? is this right?
ARP? will standard bolts do or are arp ones recomended?
Ok anything else i forgot please feel free to mention, im just after making the bottom end tough as nails for future HP increase and yes i have searched so relax, if u think i havent u try it....way too much reading for my liking  i know there are those of u out there that know what ur talkin about...im turning to u now...please help me make a decision, i need to know this soon or ill blow all my money on crap
also if u have recomendations that i do things differently please feel free to speak up, but im not going to forced induction
thank u for supporting my cause 
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Wed, 20 October 2004 06:01
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Hey bud, I don't mean to offend... But there are shit loads of articles written on building a decent 4age engine. I have read through most of them, and I tell you what, some of them are very indepth with all the things you would want to know. I wish there were more of the same based on 4k engines.. I'm so hungry for info.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Wed, 20 October 2004 07:17
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i know there is....but how do u know who to trust....i searched toymods and yeah there is loads...but i have till friday to decide what i want so my mechanic can buy the parts and start the build, i just want answers to my questions, i want it done differently then others, as im not after power but reliability there isnt really any articles refering to what i want...most ppl say to keep the bottom end standard...so yeah...
and i know im lazy but if ther are ppl on here who take the time to reply like u did....y not just answer my questions ey?
Adam
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Wed, 20 October 2004 09:13
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NA all the way mate im not throwin away everythig a 4age is for power, just want a bulletproof 4age that loves 8000 RPM as much as i do
just looking at bottom end for now then later dropin some cams in and computer
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 00:04
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Hey Adam,
If I wanted bullet proof, Then....
Send crank in for knife edging the counter weights, gives you less friction through the oil and has less probs on revs. Send con rods in for peen blasting, get them ni-tempered, purchase new crank bearings. Send new forged pistons in to a machine shop and have the gudgeon pin holes bored out to the next size gudgeon pin up. Next, send crank, con rods, gudgeon pins and new pistons in for balancing. Get the top of the block shaved and also the head, not only for a higher compression ratio, but to give a good straight seat to rest on. Talk to your engine and play clasical music, it may sound nuts, but it will raise your concentration, and make you feel all fucked up in the head. You will build a better engine, trust me. It sounds fucked up, but it works. When building this engine, spend wisely, and buy the best bolts you can get your hands on.
You want this engine to run as sweet as pie in all rev ranges. Rebuild with allot of care, strap your crank shaft in... Take the sharp edges off of the piston ring ends, this will reduce those annoying score marks in the cylinder. Rebuild with a steel type competition head gasket, they give a better life and seal like a nuns ceeeunt. At this stage, you have the makings of a very strong engine. If you are good at crafting up some steel plate and a bit of clean welding, Make up some anti wash plates with allot of 15mm holes through the plate and cut the plate to the shape of your sump, watch for the counter balence weights though. weld them into possitions that wont interfere with any moving parts. This will help if you will use the car for fast cornering. Modify the oil pick up line next. the end where the pick up is needs to be at least another half size larger, have someone fabricate an eliptical egg shaped catcher. Drill holes all around the welded egg, 2mm holes is fine for this, it needs to resemble an egg thats been shot with a shot gun. Get hold of some stainless mesh from a airconditioner manufacturer, as it is the mesh has the right size holes to be used to filter the oil from impurities. drill a hole into the egg, the size of the oil catch tube, I think its 9mm, braze the egg on. Wrap the egg in the stainless mesh and hold into place with a small hose clamp. Rebuild bottom end with new gaskets..
You are ready for the track with this engine now, as solid as a rock. Your next step is to put a sprint cam in it and then send to a dyno to get tuned properly. As you can see, there are very minimal modifications here, everything is standard except a few things to have the engine ballanced out nicely. It will last you for yonks, as you have now spent a good bit of time on it. Don't try rush it, an engine is like a woman, the more time you spend touching it, the more joy you will get from it, and the longer it will last...
Have fun
Ciaran
[Updated on: Thu, 21 October 2004 00:09]
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 02:43
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wow mate....u have way too much time on ur hands, thanx for the reply even though ur taking the piss...im not going to be the one building the motor since i dont know shit....but all i asked was what parts to use, so either way i guess u helped a little but now i feel even more confused
thanx anyway
Adam
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 03:20
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come on ppl....i just searched and there is no info on what i want....its all about making power, and bang for buck...not about making the bottom end tough, i know some of u are clever buggers so use some of that knowledge to help a brother....all im after is
change to smallport block? what pistons, what con rods, what bolts , and what compresion is do able for now before i get cams and computer....
i just want a bottom end thats tough enough for more power in the future, and thanx to cwhelan but thats hell extreme, bit much for me
someone please help, my motor has had it and i need new one built pronto
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 03:22
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I know I was takin the piss a lil bit there, but most of it was actually what you need to do to get that motor in top notch.
Hardened bolts
Forged pistons (get them machined also for bigger gudgeon pins)
Shot peen and Ni-temper conrods
Crank wedged and ballenced with what I said...
Oil pick up needs to be changed if you are looking at allot of fast cornering, hence the plates welded into the pan to stop oil swish.
Important to carefully remove the sharp edges of the piston rings, guaranteed the mechanic wont do that for you... If you've ever taken a look in the cylinder, then you will see score marks, not something you really want.. 
The classical music is optional by the way, it will make you feel like a perfectionist as I am. I've built many race engines listening to Classical shit....
Good luck bro
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 04:22
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thanx mate....i had my mechanic do some research for me....he priced me up
standard crank, balanced + ground
standard con rods...shot peened + balanced
semi forged pistons
clearenced journals (bah?) new bearings
block decked, shaved a few thou
head ported / polished
new oil pump
arp bolts
the rest is just generally rebuilt as standard, he said drop forged pistons rattle and arent necesarry unless im planing to go over 200hp which im not. Ill tell him to clean up the rings like u said because it really seems like a good idea. Do u think i should search for a 100kw block and crank? (if i go this way its all ill need off a 100kw right?) is the advantage big enough to worry about? And yeah he said for that setup 2.5K as its a friend....i think that this should be tough enough for what i want....i just dont know what needs to be done to get it to rev happier, i think this will be fixed later with a set of agresive cams and ecu
what do u think?
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 04:59
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If you can get your hands on one, get a 4agze block and start from there, its the route I would go, but not necesary. It is a far superior block, it is all up to you as to what you want to spend.. I know they say you get what you pay for, well, it is true in a sense. Donations are always the best
If you drive the way I do, and take on every beast, then its worth the little bit extra on building the best you can afford..
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 05:03
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I don't want you to think I'm some kind of 4age guru, as I have never put my hands to one, but, I have built many a race engine, and to me an anegine is an engine. The mechanics of them all are all the same, its just a matter of knowing exactly where to get your bits from at the right price, and knowing that you have the right person to put them together in a right fashion.. The rest is ABC
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 05:13
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100kw block is same as gze
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 05:24
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I must have missed something sorry, just read 4age....
Thats selective reading for ya... but yeah... 4agze is a 100kw block
thans mate..
Ciaran
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 05:29
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lol....not a 4age guru!!! what the hell am i listening to u for then....haha nah just kidding...thanx for all ur help guys...i think i decided to go
100kw bottom end
88kw head
semi forged pistons (?)
about 11:1 compresion
normal head gasket for now
best bearing i can get
arp bolts
Mick at ovaboost said that the bottom ends on the 4ages are tough as hell...he said not to worry changing con rods...at most go 4agze items, he said not to get drop forged as its not necesary, and yeah...basically i shouldnt be bothering with the bottom end at all as its tough enough out of the factory but hey.....i know how i driv3 so it needs to be done...
now im looking for a 100kw block crank and conrods + pistons
can any1 help?
thanx for ur input
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Nthn Beaches, Sydney
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 05:58
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Why not put a better head on it? Have you already got 86kw ecu etc and plan on running it on that? Just thought if you're going to all this trouble and money on the 100kw bottom end, why not just drop a whole 100kw in?
As to the gze block, does the 100kw block have the oil squirters for individual pistons like gze/20v?
And bobski, if you want it rev happy and are already balancing crank/rods might as well lighten your flywheel while you're at it.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 06:14
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lightening flywheel doesent necessarily make it more revvy....makes it rev up quicker but u lose all power basically up high i think...and yeah i already have the bigport motor in my car so i dont want to change ecu and crap...plus from what i heard the bigport head is better....i think
and CW yes u r the greatest....lol...nah mate i appreciate u responding and it does seem like u know a bit....thanx for ur help
Adam
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 06:49
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i'd be replacing the head studs and big end bolts for ARP ones,
i've always used acl bearings and never had a problem, but the engines i have put them in have not been worked as much as you plan to do.
100kw blocks have oil squirters wheras 86kw doesn't so i'd definatly be using a 100kw block to keep those expensive pistons cool.
A lightened flywheel will not affect power at all.
you will find traffic hard if you go too light but acceleration will be improved.
check out
www.billzilla.org
lots of good info there and bill knows what he is talking about.
good luck dude.
oh, and i hope when you get round to the head you are gonna stick a big set of quads on it!!
lighte
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 08:23
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thanx mate...yeah quad throttles are on the cards along with some 288 or 304 cams and microtech,but thats in the future for now just need a motor as mine is completly rodgered, loses about half a litre of water per day and half a litre oil per 2 weeks... what can i say it just wasnt up to the task...thats y the old girl needs to get replaced but after i get the motor built ill post my dyno figures im hoping for over 100hp stock (yeah i know its not much) and we will see what the future holds
and yes ill definitly be using arp bolts
Adam
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 10:54
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arp does a bottom end stud kit hears some stuff i had lying around
Rod bolt 203-6001 9mm
Head Stud kit 203-4203
Main Stud kit 203-5403
Flywheel bollts 203-2802
Assembly lube 100-9903
Thread sealer 100-9904
Stretch gauge 100-9941
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 11:24
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what makes you think the bigport heas is better? where do you think the smallport engine gets its extra power from? the head! people prefer the bigport for forced induction applications, but the smallport is in my opinion better for NA unless your gonna be cranking some serious power.
bottom end is def strong enough for NA, if you want it to rev more freely have everything balanced. save the money from forged stuff and whatever and invest in an aftermarket ecu.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 15:25
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yeah its all gonna be balanced but i dont really want to change the computer just yet...if i do the bottom end now i can always change the head when i get an aftermarket ecu and cams.....by doing what i have planed i dont exclude changing the head by no means.....the only reason i want to keep big port head is so i dont have to rewire my motor just yet....if i keep the bigport head i just drop the motor straight in...later on when i get computer i can choose what i want...im not up to there just yet....the plan for now is to make a solid base on which to build on in the future...
Flem...any idea how much the arp bolt sets cost? just for the rod and main stud sets?
thanx for the input
Adam
btw if something i said doesent make sense its cos i got a cronic flu and im dosed up on drowsy medication 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: building 4age
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Thu, 21 October 2004 16:25
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how you expect the stock ecu will handle 280 or 304 cams
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Fri, 22 October 2004 01:22
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i dont at all....if u only read what i said it would all make sense. All im doind for now is the bottom end, everything else im leaving standard besides a light head port job , then in the future im puting in cams and computer in one go..
Adam
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Sun, 24 October 2004 20:37
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ok sorry to bump my problem up again....but i need advice
i did some more research and was told the bigport head doesent go straight onto the smallport block...like physicly it does but its not good for the motor if its gonna be thrashed...is this true?
seccondly....on bills page he sais that bigport and smallport computers are interchangable...on some occasions..i had to change my mind again about what i want to do ....i decided on puting a 100kw motor in just to make it easier and so i dont have to mess around with the problems of exchanging heads and things not working properly as i have been told
is there any chance that i can use my current loom on a 100kw motor...my guess is no
is there going to be problems tuning a stock 100kw motor with an aftermarket ecu...probably microtech
and lastly...should i bother...or stick with the bigport...and i dont want forced induction
i hate making decisions i need u folk to help me out..so plz lend me ur ears
Adam
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: building 4age
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Sun, 24 October 2004 22:06
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From what little i know, this is not correct.
| Bobski wrote on Mon, 25 October 2004 04:37 |
i did some more research and was told the bigport head doesent go straight onto the smallport block...like physicly it does but its not good for the motor if its gonna be thrashed...is this true?
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Mon, 25 October 2004 03:24
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ooooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkk
wierdo
i think i understand what ur saying, but its borderline
ok...so if i run 100kw i have to rewire engine loom...instead of using the stock 100kw ecu can i just run microtech straight up...even with a basically stock motor to make it easy later on to just drop cams in? or is it gonna be a bitch to tune for a standard engine?
and please in english moite
Adam
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Mon, 25 October 2004 03:33
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I may step aside with my fantaloosmic quasmatic english humour,
me loves taking the piss, but on a much more serious note, I would challenge anyone else to answer this for Bobski...
Hey, hope all is going well with what you have started mate, I am going to be writing a very indepth article on the 2tg conversion for a ke55 and possibly expand it to building a street sprint/ hill climb car from start to finish with easy steps and full pics..... It should all take about 3/4 months to complete, but it will be very thourough. Feel free to coment on the ideas...
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: building 4age
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Mon, 25 October 2004 04:15
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thanx for ur help, i hope someone else whose done this sort of thing or knows a thing or 2 steps up as i dont want to just rely on what mechanics say...as most of the time they dont know much at all
someone with some experience plz help me out
Adam
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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