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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:30
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Steve from A & B tilt trays is doing a ke25 project up and I am trying to talk him out of a rotor so I need to know how to get atleast 200rwkw out of a 4AGE with out spending a million dollars
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:33
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200rwkw out of a 4AGE, without spending much money ? Tell him he's dreaming. 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:36
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i reckon a million dollars will get you pretty close 
forged GZE pistons.
well designed intake and exhaust.
turbo that supports 200rwkw (sayy 250 flywheel).
engine management that supplies fuel and spark in the proper quantities.
other normal 'doing up' things.
what else you need to know?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:36
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| 4ageeza wrote on Sun, 14 November 2004 21:33 |
200rwkw out of a 4AGE, without spending much money ? Tell him he's dreaming.
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That sums it up pretty well 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:37
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I know it wont be cheep but he dosn't want to waste money on fancy shit that is not needed
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:40
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of course it's easier with a 2.4-2.6L motor than a 1.6L motor
but a 13B won't fit very well (tunnel) and won't be engineerable
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Location:
NSW, East Coast
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:45
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200rwkw out of a 4age, easy
Take 1 4agze motor, remove all supercharger gear.
Install rwd (or converted other) inlet manifold, add a turbo, i think at least a gt28 series should be enough or maybe a high flowed ct26 off a 7mgte.
Not sure on injectors, havent read enough into it, they maybe enough just, but 3sgte injectors might work, but you'll need a fuel pump capable of supplying 400-500hp, a decent intercooler, oil cooler (you gonna need it, and a aftermarket programmable computer and a good set of cams.
Not to mention a strong enough diff, gearbox and clutch, nothing short of supra material's.
It has been done before, and could be done a realistic budget, say $5000-$7000 G's.
Ask her for more, http://www.justenginemanagement.com/myae86.html
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 11:48
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 14 November 2004 22:40 |
of course it's easier with a 2.4-2.6L motor than a 1.6L motor
but a 13B won't fit very well (tunnel) and won't be engineerable
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exatly
What about cams and the different types of heads
What motor should he start with?
Sorry for sounding dumb but I have done fuck all with 4AGE motors
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 12:12
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Why has your mate only considered a 13BT or a 4AGE? There are a number of other cheapish options that will provide the required power.
However you must also be aware that to produce such power means either alot of money modding a small engine, or not as much money modding but purchasing a bigger engine. For both options you should take into account what you want to use the car for and how the wieght and balancing of the car may be effected.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 12:22
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He was looking at a 12A turbo not a 13B but he wont to be able to engineer the car and only wants a small motor (doesn't want to croud the engine bay)
And its his miss car
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 12:27
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How about a 2L turbo motor? They arent too big, and shouldnt require a shitload of mods and money to get the power you want.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 12:34
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KE25, at 750kg, can only legally fit a 1.8L turbo in NSW.
3TGTE is too old/heavy.
2ZZGE turbo? maybe too much stuffing around.
4AGTE, light, smooth and... good.
what other 1.6-1.8L options are there?
no point making it a nose heavy waste of space...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 13:02
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Dare I say CA18? They are cheap motors that are really easy to get hold of. Performance parts are easy to come by too.
To build a 4AGTE you need alot of faily expensive parts that are hard to come buy. 4AGZE themsleves are generally expensive and not easy to find.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 13:12
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12at is engineerable 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 13:17
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how do you figure that (legally)?
12A = 2.4L / 2.5 = 960kg...
no way a KE25 is 960kg...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 14:43
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| 4ageeza wrote on Sun, 14 November 2004 23:32 |
Dare I say CA18? They are cheap motors that are really easy to get hold of. Performance parts are easy to come by too.
To build a 4AGTE you need alot of faily expensive parts that are hard to come buy. 4AGZE themsleves are generally expensive and not easy to find.
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only problem i find with ca18 the pistons become a weak link when modified
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Sun, 14 November 2004 20:14
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| faulksy wrote on Mon, 15 November 2004 01:43 |
| 4ageeza wrote on Sun, 14 November 2004 23:32 |
Dare I say CA18? They are cheap motors that are really easy to get hold of. Performance parts are easy to come by too.
To build a 4AGTE you need alot of faily expensive parts that are hard to come buy. 4AGZE themsleves are generally expensive and not easy to find.
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only problem i find with ca18 the pistons become a weak link when modified
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And there not a toyota engine
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Location:
wangaratta
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 10:14
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-----oldcorollas-----
why do you say that a 12A is 2.4 L???
is that because of authorities doubling its capacity coz its a rotor, or some other thing???
im curious. . .
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 10:18
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i think if its turboed the capacity is read as doubled, that goes for any forced induction i beleive
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 10:29
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I thought that the capacity of a rotary is based on the thereabouts capacity of each rotor. As oldcorollas has indicated, the capacity of a 12A or a 13B is considered to be 2.4L (both have two rotors with a capacity of 1200cc thereabouts). I dont think a turbo has any bearing on the considered capacity.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 10:36
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Yeah, FI is 2x. At least thats how it goes for engineering and CAMS.
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Location:
wangaratta
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 11:09
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| Quote: |
I thought that the capacity of a rotary is based on the thereabouts capacity of each rotor. As oldcorollas has indicated, the capacity of a 12A or a 13B is considered to be 2.4L (both have two rotors with a capacity of 1200cc thereabouts). I dont think a turbo has any bearing on the considered capacity.
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a 13B has a total capacity of 1308 cc's ( 654 per rotor ), not 1308 per rotor and therefore, 2616 cc's total. i think the 12A is 624 cc's per rotor from memory. .
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i think if its turboed the capacity is read as doubled, that goes for any forced induction i beleive
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if forced induction incurred a 2x multiplication rule, then why is it suggested to use a CA18 or a 4AGTE, as these have a capacity of 3.6 or 3.2 litres respectively with the 2x multiplyer. . .
is it because of the fact of a rotor engines superior efficiency or something, or what is going on???
coz its a bit confusing.
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Location:
Bottom of the hill, Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Mon, 15 November 2004 11:36
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Not this argument again
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Location:
wangaratta
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 00:03
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i dont mean to be causing 'this argument again', im just curious is all. . . if someone could explain it to me, i would be very happy.
thanks.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 00:50
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Rotors fire once per revolution, 4 stroke reciprocating engines fire once per 2 revolutions. Therefore the 1300cc of a rotor fires twice as often as a normal piston engine and has an effective capacity of twice it's actual capacity.
The forced induction side of things for engineering isn't so harsh, it's only a small modifier for being turbo.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 01:03
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As to the original question.
Ben was getting over 200KW out of an internally standard early bigport GZE. He was running the low compression engine with a GT28 440 turbo, big intercooler, custom intake and exhaust manifolds, 550cc injectors and bigport NA cams.
His new engine on the other hand is somewhat more extreme.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 02:26
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| boxh34d wrote on Mon, 15 November 2004 22:09 |
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I thought that the capacity of a rotary is based on the thereabouts capacity of each rotor. As oldcorollas has indicated, the capacity of a 12A or a 13B is considered to be 2.4L (both have two rotors with a capacity of 1200cc thereabouts). I dont think a turbo has any bearing on the considered capacity.
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a 13B has a total capacity of 1308 cc's ( 654 per rotor ), not 1308 per rotor and therefore, 2616 cc's total. i think the 12A is 624 cc's per rotor from memory. .
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i think if its turboed the capacity is read as doubled, that goes for any forced induction i beleive
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if forced induction incurred a 2x multiplication rule, then why is it suggested to use a CA18 or a 4AGTE, as these have a capacity of 3.6 or 3.2 litres respectively with the 2x multiplyer. . .
is it because of the fact of a rotor engines superior efficiency or something, or what is going on???
coz its a bit confusing.
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what Josh said..
for registration and engineering purposes in the state of NSW, a 12A has a capacity of 2.4L, and a 13B has a capacity of 2.6L.
i believe a 13B should have about 2.4L cap for rego purposes as they only make similar torque to a 2.4L motor.. but with the extra revs, there is a power gain, so 2.6 is abotu right.
for registration and engineering purposes in NSW, to work out the maximum capacity allowable, in cc's (for cars under 1100kg):
for NA, multiply weight in kg by 3.
for FI, multiply weight in kg by 2.5.
anything larger than this is NOT ENGINEER CERTIFIABLE. it MUST be considered an ICV (individually constructed car) and as such must meet ALL CURRENT ADR's including crashworthiness (ie body and head deceleration rates)
a KE10 can have a 1.7L turbo.. a KE20 can have a 1.8L turbo (just)
you could however, use a 2T block, bore it out and use a 3T crank to get around this (if you engineer is sloppy) and have a 2L turbo but then it's still an old motor....
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 02:49
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Those rules would allow a 4AGTE bullet KE10. Hmm, might have to have a chat to indigoid 
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 02:53
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There is a sure fire recipe for a 200kw plus 4AGTE (without 30psi of boost either), plenty of people on here have done it, many have driven them for a long time without problems and the good ones have done it without a laggy turbo 
Fark it's not that hard or expensive to get a 4AGTE to make some reasonably fun power, mine has a small turbo (T28 0.48 A/R exhaust housing), 2.5" exhaust and very thin FMIC and it makes 170rwkw (I know what I need to do to get more, but it's $$$ I don't want to spend at this stage, maybe later). My brothers 4AGTE made 205rwkw on less boost than mine, standard internals, stock 4AGZE cams etc. His just runs a more efficient FMIC, 3" exhaust and slightly larger turbo (his comes on full boost by just over 3000rpm, sooner than most low boost factory turbo cars).
| Quote: |
Even the T50 is a tight fit from memory
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T50 is an easy fit and even bolts up to the factory locations (the TE27 Levin was a 2TG powered corolla with a T50 behind it) on the chassis, but with a 200rwkw engine the t50 is not a good choice . The W series boxes are a tight fit though, but mine is in there (w58).
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As for 200rwkw, pretty easy.
4AGZE block
Bigport head
T28 S15 BB Turbo
FC3S 550cc Injectors
Decent IC
Decent exhaust manifold
Intake manifold w/o TVIS
267* Cams
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A TA22 is in the build at the moment to the above specs here in Canberra, but using standard ZE cams and 440cc injectors and I have no doubt it will give 200rwkw a nudge.
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How about a 2L turbo motor? They arent too big, and shouldnt require a shitload of mods and money to get the power you want.
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A few guys have done the SR20DET into KE20/25, tight fit, but the big problem is the steering rack has to go/ be modified etc. The 3SGTE would be cool, but is not a cheap option.
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You will need angrier cams to make a turbo capable of producing 200rwkw on a 1.6L engine less peaky/laggy.
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Not true, my brothers 4AGTE turns over 200rwkw, comes on boost very hard and early in the RPM range and is using stock cams. A very smooth car to drive with a good power band, not too peaky, definitely not laggy.
Have a look at my KE25 in the readers ride section of this forum, do something similar but with a better turbo (something of newer design and slightly larger perhaps) and 3 inch exhaust and a better intercooler and I have no doubt that you will get to 200rwkw on less boost than I am to make 170rwkw.
Here is a link:
http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=39171&start=0&rid=204&S=4e935ca9204a 6bf7c6eede8a08155b0c
There is a bit of 28th hand gossip on what is capable and what various engines will perform like. Read between the lines and pay no attention to the heresay/rumour etc.
Good luck with the KE25, I am biased, but I reckon they are a cool little car and are not too common. I have no plans to get rid of mine any time soon
Cheers.
PM if you have any questions about anything on the 4A/KE25 combo.
[Updated on: Tue, 16 November 2004 02:58]
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 02:54
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| takai wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 13:49 |
Those rules would allow a 4AGTE bullet KE10. Hmm, might have to have a chat to indigoid
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yes it will
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 02:59
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Mmm, iwas thinking of your cars when i wrote that ke382TG.
I was under the impression that a T50 was pretty tight, but tsill easy, but a W55 required trannybashing. And given that an SR20/CA18 manual box is about the same size as the W55 then it wouldnt fit easily. I stand corrected.
As for that upcoming build i daresay the 440cc would be ok, but i like having room to move on my injector sizings, so the 550s would be almost as cheap and give that bit extra breathing space. The cams were a nicety as i know there are a few sets floating around. The bigport cams (which shoudl come with the head) would be pretty good too.
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Location:
NSW, East Coast
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 03:20
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| boxh34d wrote on Tue, 16 November 2004 11:03 |
i dont mean to be causing 'this argument again', im just curious is all. . . if someone could explain it to me, i would be very happy.
thanks.
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I do believe that rotories are only 1.2-1.3 ltrs respectivly, but i also believe they are considered 2.4-2.6ltrs because of the amount of fuel they consume/use, that being similar to a motor of 2.4-2.6 ltrs.
Just what i heard, but im 80% sure im on the right track
Cheers
Steve
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 03:24
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I was under the impression that a T50 was pretty tight, but tsill easy, but a W55 required trannybashing. And given that an SR20/CA18 manual box is about the same size as the W55 then it wouldnt fit easily. I stand corrected.
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T50 is a neat fit, no probs at all.
Wxx does require some "massaging" near the front of the transmission tunnel.
SR20 5spd is very similar to the Wxx for size, so no doubt would require some tunnel mods.
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As for that upcoming build i daresay the 440cc would be ok, but i like having room to move on my injector sizings, so the 550s would be almost as cheap and give that bit extra breathing space. The cams were a nicety as i know there are a few sets floating around. The bigport cams (which shoudl come with the head) would be pretty good too.
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Definitely the 550cc will do the trick (I assume you mean some 13B turbo injectors which are very easily obtainable at reasonable prices). My brothers 4AGTE turbo is currently undergoing a few changes (I think???? 13BT 550cc injectors are going on to replace the 440's and possibly some cams?? i saw adjustable cam gears on it last time I saw the engine in the stand) I am keen to see the difference the cams make as I don't know anyone who has done a comparison, they have always just started with one or the other and stayed with them. Pretty sure the 440's had some headroom (but not a lot) at 205rwkw (on 18psi).
It's good to see some good power 4AGTE's getting around, over 150rwkw is commonplace now.
I remember when my car was in Zoom (a few years ago now) and it had the Dyno graph showing 154rwkw and a LOT of people on this forum said it was "a load of shit" , just not possible etc. Hehehehe, now if you are "only" making power in the 150's people will be saying "what's wrong?". Hehehe times have changed.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 03:40
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Howdy, i'm curious as to what torque figures some of these 160 + rwkw 4agte engines are making?
My 3tgte on 20psi struggles to make 165rwkw. Seems a 4agte can make this easy with less boost.
But being 1.6 vs 1.8, is the torque figures lower or power bands not so good? The 3tgte has a very nice torque curve on the dyno sheet.
Thanks
Joel
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 04:12
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| Quote: |
Howdy, i'm curious as to what torque figures some of these 160 + rwkw 4agte engines are making?
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I will try and dig up a dyno reading I have at home with a torque curve on it (I get different plots each time for my info eg, boost, air/fuel etc but I am sure I have a couple with torque curves. I might try and scan one to pop up here for those who are interested. Pretty sure the last dyno day i did had torque, I shall see tonight.
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Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 07:10
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or you could do the sensible thing and run a cheap K motor
as for 3t-gte vs 4a-gte... the 4a-g motors have the correct number of valves 4A blocks/heads are also a fair bit lighter than 2/3T, based on my impressions of lugging them and a 2T-GEU around the garage
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Location:
Penrith, Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 08:13
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an sr20 will fit into a ke20, I'd say it would be the same for a ke25. The guy down the road from me has an 11.1 sec ke20 with an sr20 turbo engine, not sure on power figures though.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 08:27
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Torque - well if a 4AG is making more power at the same revs, it has to be making more torque, simple as that.
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Location:
wangaratta
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 10:05
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thanks to those that cleared up the rotor capacity grading issue, much appreciated. i never knew much about how authorities viewed them. thanks again.
and as for how times have changed, think of what people would have said if you could get 200 odd horsepower out of a production 2 litre 4 pot!! ( aka beams )
or think of people 5 years ago talking about 1400 odd rear wheel horsepower out of holden V8's. . . its amazing how far little things which were once thought to reduce reliability (EFI) can push the boundaries of performance engines.
and lets not get started on things like the 2JZGTE with how much power it can handle on standard internals. . .
it really is some pretty bloody scary stuff!!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Plumpton/sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 10:51
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Thanks fellas for all the info, this has become a busy thread
I have another question what engine would be best to start with-big or small port head
Cheers
Ben
As for the rotor question the rta is to stupid to relise that a 12A is only a 1.2L not a 2.4L and thats all I have to say about that
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Getting power out of a 4AGE
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Tue, 16 November 2004 23:28
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Bigport is the go for a turbo engine.
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