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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 12:14
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I'm in the process of rebuilding my AE92 GZE and i'm doing it all properly..no corners cut..lucky i have acess to a full Machine shop..
it already has (600km ago..) a fresh recoed head, bigport cams, a fair amount of port work done, decked a tiny bit, 1mm 3 layer steel headgasket (can i use it again?? it's had under 1000km's on it!)
i'm planning on using,
genuine o/s GZE pistons..(0.5 or 1.0mm to be determined when i crack her open)
total seal rings
ACL bearings? or toyota genuine? i dunno?
new gaskets
new seals
oil pump check/overhaul
block crack tested/honed
welch plugs
crank tested/lightened and balanced
polish the rods
while it's out i'm doing a custom crank pully (10mm O/S), custom o/s water pump pully 5mm or so (underdrive)..
i did a quick search and didn't really find anything specific about the sort of brands of rings etc to use..can you guys give some advice on what works and what doesn't?
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Location:
qld
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 12:45
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i know the head gasket should be fine, i had a 4 layer s/steel hks one in my 3s-gte and used it for 4 head swaps, they are the bom!
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 12:56
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when i pulled my old gze based 4agte down it had a 3 peice metal HG, i pulled it apart and relayered it with Hylomar and used it in my current 4agte engine.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 13:33
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I tried to fit ACL rings to standard 3SGE pistons and found something out from ACL - ACL rings are made to fit ACL pistons and may not fit OEM pistons.
I too have a multilayer metal gasket and have used it twice so far.
Nothing beats genuine parts for strength and reliability.
Some big name performance engine builders use Toyota (NOT ARP)for this reason.
Most bolts like head bolts and rod bolts are desinged for single use only.
Look into HPC coatings, there a bargain and can only help things.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 22:22
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cool thanks for the tips, the heaqd gasket info is helpfull, i didn't really wanna fork out another $130 (trade) for nothing...more money on the motor! yay!
i was gonna get new head bolts definitly (one head swap in it's life is enough with the single bolts)
i was toying with the rod/cap studs, should i replace these too? most of my parts will be from toyota, i should see if they do the o/s rings for the o/s pistons..they should...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 23:10
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Hey matty when are ya interested in getting this stuff done cos i want a full house 4AG'T'E built for my sprinter??
Jezza
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 23:23
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A FEW QUICK NOTES
Toyota only make the GZE pistons in 0.5mm oversize, so you are limited to that (i wouldnt want any more anyway!).
Toby Hunt in melbourne (meridian motorsport) does pistons rings to suit OEM GZE pistons at a good price AFAIK.
Why make your own pulleys when there are plenty of pre-done options out there? Nevo 164 and 175mm pulley kits are well tested and proven to give very good results from the SC14 charger.
THere is also the option of a smaller S/C pulley and clutch. Over on Twincam.org forums there was a little group buy happening for these but i cant remember who it was that did them (was some guy who just god an engineering shop to make up heaps), they were a 105mm (from memory) pulley with NEW CLUTCH included.
Best results = rip off the blower and slap on a turbo. THe results from that with your current engine would yeild greater results and probably cost the same or less.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Mon, 03 January 2005 23:40
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| THE WITZL wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 10:23 |
A FEW QUICK NOTES
Toyota only make the GZE pistons in 0.5mm oversize, so you are limited to that (i wouldnt want any more anyway!).
Toby Hunt in melbourne (meridian motorsport) does pistons rings to suit OEM GZE pistons at a good price AFAIK.
Why make your own pulleys when there are plenty of pre-done options out there? Nevo 164 and 175mm pulley kits are well tested and proven to give very good results from the SC14 charger.
THere is also the option of a smaller S/C pulley and clutch. Over on Twincam.org forums there was a little group buy happening for these but i cant remember who it was that did them (was some guy who just god an engineering shop to make up heaps), they were a 105mm (from memory) pulley with NEW CLUTCH included.
Best results = rip off the blower and slap on a turbo. THe results from that with your current engine would yeild greater results and probably cost the same or less.
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SC12...but yeh i know what you mean..i'll see wich is more cost effective, i'm keeping the s/c..a mate of mine actually geared the S/C differently..stock pulleys, yet it was cranking in 14psi..he says it's a couple of hours work..(i'll let him sort that out!) i primarily wanted the billit ones my mate was making for less rotational mass..every little bit helps..so i've heard..the problem is that i need to get heaps of little bits, as i don't have the RWD 4AGE stuff from the original motor that was in it..with the new motor who knows..i might whack on an SC14??? see how that goes!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 07:43
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Toyota lists all ze pistons as being the same reguardless of model!.
The pistons I have seen were 40th over (1mm) with rings, from Toyota new.
You could put on a turbo if you want lag, cool down times and lots of oil changes, for the same psi a S/C will be virtually same power.
A SC14 with a 175cm crank pully will give you at least 240hp at fly, thats a 13s et with boost from idle and no lag no cooldown no 5000km oil changes.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 08:16
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| foxtail wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 18:43 |
Toyota lists all ze pistons as being the same reguardless of model!.
The pistons I have seen were 40th over (1mm) with rings, from Toyota new.
You could put on a turbo if you want lag, cool down times and lots of oil changes, for the same psi a S/C will be virtually same power.
A SC14 with a 175cm crank pully will give you at least 240hp at fly, thats a 13s et with boost from idle and no lag no cooldown no 5000km oil changes.
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the car already should be around 240hp at the fly with this head and the cams in, without the cams and headwork it was approching 190..
and the car did 13.9 with the stock ZE!! no mods except for exhaust..i change the oil religiously at 4000ish anyway..but thanks for the tip!
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 08:17
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would it be worth getting the O/S genuine pistons, with o/s genuine rings? or should i go for some aftermarket rings? personally i would go with toyota..just cos of the name and their inherent quality.
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Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 08:49
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toyota only do one size o/s and thats 0.5mm.
how ever there can be 3 sizes of std.
gze pistons are already ceramic coated.
use toyota bearings, or if your really serious TRD.
use ARP rod bolts, the toyota ones are weaker. the other bolts are ok, but some are torque to yeild so should be checked before use.
use the toyota pistons and rings, for the price you will not get better aftermarket.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 09:56
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| Mr Revhead wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 19:49 |
toyota only do one size o/s and thats 0.5mm.
how ever there can be 3 sizes of std.
gze pistons are already ceramic coated.
use toyota bearings, or if your really serious TRD.
use ARP rod bolts, the toyota ones are weaker. the other bolts are ok, but some are torque to yeild so should be checked before use.
use the toyota pistons and rings, for the price you will not get better aftermarket.
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thats what i wanted to hear!! thank you Mr Revhead! starting the wish list..
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 04 January 2005 23:53
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| Quote: |
You could put on a turbo if you want lag, cool down times and lots of oil changes, for the same psi a S/C will be virtually same power.
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I dont see how you figure that...
A supercharger is driven by the engine, draining power as it does so (typically on a 4agze around 20kW). A turbo on the other hand is driven by the exhaust gas output from the engine and thus costs little to no power by comparison.
Lag is not a factor if you SELECT THE RIGHT TURBO, cool down times are for when you fang it or want the turbo timer wank factor, and oil changes should be done either way!
Well at least that's what i would think. Turbo's are cool. werd.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Wed, 05 January 2005 00:21
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| THE WITZL wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 10:53 |
| Quote: |
You could put on a turbo if you want lag, cool down times and lots of oil changes, for the same psi a S/C will be virtually same power.
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I dont see how you figure that...
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You aren't the only one. Last time I checked power has to come from somewhere, you can't create it. Turbo utilises energy from the exhaust gasses, a waste product. The SC on the other hand relies on using the rotational force of the crank. Waste product vs using the exact same form of energy you are trying to produce.. ask anyone who has done a gze-gte conversion which is more efficient of the two.
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Wed, 05 January 2005 03:16
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no doubt the S/C 'sapps' power, then has to create it again, then more! it has a tough life and a high expectation already..i agree 100% turbo is better..later i will go down that path, but i want to see how far i can go with the s/c, befor spending another $2000 on the engine..
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Thu, 06 January 2005 02:03
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| drift86levin wrote on Wed, 05 January 2005 14:16 |
no doubt the S/C 'sapps' power, then has to create it again, then more! it has a tough life and a high expectation already..i agree 100% turbo is better..later i will go down that path, but i want to see how far i can go with the s/c, befor spending another $2000 on the engine..
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FWIW, here's a quote from the excellent 'Forced induction performance tuning' book:
"Porsche did some comparison thesting on a 16-valve 2.6 litre 944 some time back with both a Roots blower and a turbocharger.... the Roots blower made close to maximum boost within abot 2.5 seconds or the throttle being floored. By comparison the turbo car has virtually no boost registering at this stage. In fact, it takes over 10 seconds for the turbo to make the same boost as the blower."
In other words, whilst a turbo will ultimately make more power, it will only do so at very high RPM. It will have a distinct torque disadvantage in the low and middle RPM, which is where most ordinary driving is done.
Sure, a Roots blower will be relatively inefficient, especially at higher revs, but it will outperform a turbo motor in everyday use.
Go the blower.
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Thu, 06 January 2005 02:24
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| cswan wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 13:03 |
"Porsche did some comparison thesting on a 16-valve 2.6 litre 944 some time back with both a Roots blower and a turbocharger.... the Roots blower made close to maximum boost within abot 2.5 seconds or the throttle being floored. By comparison the turbo car has virtually no boost registering at this stage. In fact, it takes over 10 seconds for the turbo to make the same boost as the blower."
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There's been a hell of a lot of development since then with regards to turbocharger lag.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Thu, 06 January 2005 02:27
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Also on the track or in a race situation how often do you plan on being at low rpms where the s/c has an advantage?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Thu, 06 January 2005 04:42
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i was just about to say something about the turbo lag comment from porsche and your 1973 "forced induction" book.
Even my freinds KE20 with its 3T-GTE + stock CT20 lag master turbo builds boost faster than 10 seconds! Well done to porsche at the time for putting a T88 on their 2.6L and expecting instant responsiveness.
A well matched turbo will always outperform an equivalent boosting supercharger, except for that 1000-2500rpm range.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Thu, 06 January 2005 05:34
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This post is funny (not the post itself, just some of the illinformed comments) 
| Quote: |
Sure, a Roots blower will be relatively inefficient, especially at higher revs, but it will outperform a turbo motor in everyday use.
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It all depends, I guarantee if I run the same boost as any 4AGZE in my 4AGTE in a roll on from any rpm, any gear I will build boost just about as quickly and will roll away from them quite quickly  My car has been supercharged and is now turbo, with a correctly sized turbo lag is not an issue.
It's all horses for courses anyhow SC, turbo ,NA it's all good, just be happy with what you got.
I think the SC12 4AGZE is great setup, my car ran in that form for a couple of years with a bigger pulley etc. It went well, but my current turbo setup outperforms it in every situation!
So many comments on these forums lately coming from peoples 7th hand experience. Makes for some entertaining reading at least 
Lag, what's that? 
[Updated on: Thu, 06 January 2005 05:35]
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 18 January 2005 01:26
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Well, I certainly got you lot talking!
ke382TG: Fair enough. Get the turbo size right and low down boost won't be too bad. Superchargers make better boost down low while the turbo is still spooling up. As I said: '..in everyday use'.
Monkeymajik - you're right: on the track at higher revs, turbo will beat the supercharger.
THE WITZL - 1000-2500 RPM is where I drive mostly on the road. Anyone who wants to avoid that rev range on a road car must dump the clutch a lot.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Tough GZE build up
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Tue, 18 January 2005 03:41
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It's sort of irrevelant saying that superchargers provide superior performance in the 1000 - 2500 daily driving rpm band, because when you want to go fast you avoid this band completely. You either launch from higher rpm, or drop back a gear.
You can have your supercharger any day, happy in the knowledge that while cruising around at 1750rpm, 4th gear at 60km/h you are making more power than a turbo.
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