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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Tue, 04 January 2005 12:19
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Guys this seems to have been covered in bits and pieces of other threads including turbo applications so don't shoot me if I've missed a thread, but....
What success have others had with ECU's on a N/A 20 valve. I have one to put in an MG Midget and due to space virtually need to run ram tubes and socks hence no AFM.
Was going to run Microtech after initial discussions with tuners but have now found they cannot tune off MAP as was my expectation. Microtech also can't run AFM so I can't copy standard setup.
Has to be tuned in TPS mode but they say with 3D?? mapping will run pretty well. The thought of tuning in TPS mode seems a little old school these days.
What have others found. Price of Motec, Autronic etc is out of budget.
Who are good tuners of other brands in Bris. Have been talking to Mazfix and Microtech directly.
Gavin
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Tue, 04 January 2005 12:54
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| Rex_Kelway wrote on Tue, 04 January 2005 23:26 |
Then save for a little longer, simple as that. Autronic SMC is only $600 more than the 'electronic carby'. Spend that little bit more and you will thank yourself after.
An internal combustion enigne is a relatively simple thing. Its the ECU and its features/flexibility which pulls the whole thing together.
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LOL 
and anyone who tells you that having short quads will nto have enough vacuum to tune properly may not be telling you the whole story..
frinstance, on an alfa 2L in a hotrod, with GSXR TB's, the idle vacuum was 75kpa, cruise was about 85, and with throttle between 85 and 100... setting the MAP points in 2 or 3kpa increments made for an excellent tune, even with the 25kpa range of vacuum... and this was with the Megasquirt "electronic carby" 
i agree with Rex, if you are going to the effort, why not save the 50% more for the ECU and be totally happy with it..
any tuner that says you can run TPS only (alpha-N) is not working hard enough for their dollar  (althought you may need to run alpha-N near idle if you have no vacuum due to big cams)
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Tue, 04 January 2005 22:39
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I've run a silvertop on MAP using a Haltech with no problems.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 00:11
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Ben, where's the MAP sensor?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 00:42
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I hooked up the Haltech one to the small plenum behind the throttle bodies.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 08:22
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the problem why, is not the vacuum, it's the vacuum fluctuations between the other three throttles.. ie if hooked up to one, the map reads this and makes changes seen to this one cylinder to all four, possibly leaning one of the cylinders out, which is real nasty for f/i engines.... N/A can get away with it, but for some reason Microtech's don't like it. Now there are three ways around it. a. TPS tuning b. drill four small holes and run equal length vacuum tubing (4->2->1) to the map sensor c. get a Black top manifold aready setup for map. b is the cheapest and works fine if you want map.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 09:05
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Its easy to solve the problem though ( fluctuations ), I simply made a vacume pulsation chamber linking all four intake ports, if you use a reasonable size chamber the pulsations flatten out, run a single line out of the far end of the chamber and even with big cams the fluctuations in vacume are considerably reduced, i even use a feed off the tank to run the fuel pressure valve on the fuel rail , I have a pressure gauge directly on this rail and there are NO fluctuations in pressure from the vacume line at all.
In terms of running quads, in my own experience the Wolf3D V4 does a pretty good job too. Has features to trigger VVT can run in Idle lock to ensure consistant stable idle regardless of vacume plus many other neat little features. Most reasonable ecu's will do the job.. it really depends on how good your tuner is at the end of the day.
my maps also start pretty high .. 65-70Kpa at idle.
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 09:56
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Interesting guys. Spoke to Autronic people today as didn't realise they were not that much dearer, although it still slows the budget.
Suggested to Archie that I would run some form of equalisation eg the vacuum tank pincipal. He reckons he has tuned a few 20 valves and it has to be via TPS. Didn't actually state why the Microtech can't handle it. The contact at Microtech confirmed the same thing though. I thought they would be able to reference from both.
Also spoke to Ray Hall in Cairns who is the main Autronic man. He has had a turbo 20 valve and also tuned others. He reckons the 20 valve has a built in balance tube cast into the manifold but not sure if he was referring to black or silver. Sure I told him I had the silver. Also advised that the Autronic can be self tuned on the road. That is there is an interface they can use that will read what the car does and then adjust automatically. He doesn't tune on the dyno anymore for anything under 600hp. Reckons he can have one tuned for about $150. Not that I'm going to Cairns or anything but he is the only Autronic agent in Qld I could get today. CNJ Motorsport are closed till 17th.
So yes the Autronic sounds very impressive for the money. Looks like I might head down that path unless I get a ride in a Microtech tuned 20 valve that convinces me otherwise in the meantime. (Would still love to spend that $7-$800 elsewhere)
Ray also stated that with single throttles there's nothing wrong with the Microtech.
Gavin
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Wed, 05 January 2005 21:42
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On the silvertop, if you have a look at your inlet system, there is an aluminium box under the wiring loom right next to the head. The PCV hose and the idle control motor hooks up to it.
If you hook up a map sensor to this box, the motor will run fine.
If you don't believe me, here is the map I used.
http://www.ben.foo.cc/20vmap.htm
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Location:
S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 06:43
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have many people used a Wolf before? I have a 3.1 I want to hook up to it, to be well and truely covered I think I will have a small plenum that comes off the factory mini-plenum.
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 06:46
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also try using a blacktop ecu on your silver top just have to change a few wires and dont need a afm
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 06:48
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just a quick one, i think this has ben answered before but i dont remember the reply,
can you run a 16 valve 4age with quad throttle bodies with the standard 16 valve computer?
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 06:54
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NO
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 06:58
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I've used and Autronic for about six years now and the value comes in the way you can upgrade the software. It was running a 7AFE, but now it'll be running a bastardised Blacktop/silvertop engine from all the parts I've accumilated over the years... ie Blacktop bottom, Ported silvertop head and B/T throttles, but I do Know that all the S/T's we have ran using Microtech have been TPS because they don't like it! All the others brands, never had a problem... ps if you think autronic is good, your eye's will pop when you see motec's data logging, which is why most racers use it...information return.... and why I made the switch in the new car. For general street stuff, I wouldn't bother.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 08:59
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shhhh Wolf are rumored to be producing a dash datalogger for the V4 close to what the Motec has, supposedly the circuit boards are in production presently with and estimated cost of around $2500, half that of motec with the same features
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 09:54
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| shinybluesteel wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 02:48 |
just a quick one, i think this has ben answered before but i dont remember the reply,
can you run a 16 valve 4age with quad throttle bodies with the standard 16 valve computer?
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As far to the knowledge of most people its not possible , But some very smart person in japan has apparently carried this off will good results . The car in question is due to arrive the end of this week or early next week . As soon as its here after getting it running again i will be researching what there have done and checking it's tune and power output on the dyno . The vehicle has dyno sheets from japan with a output of 135rwhp and the engine is apparently stock internally , so this i have to see .
As far as your Ecu questions i haven't never seen a quad throttled engine ever run correctly on a non sequential 3d system , so that really rules out most . Sure most system might be able to run the engine and be tuned with the a higher output than the standard factory ecu at the upmost of the rev range . But most will not be able to be tuned in the mid range area ! . At this point the vacuum fluctuations from the reverberation of multi throttle set ups will have the air fuel ratios constantly variating at a rate most ecus will not be able to handle , with there simple mapping . Then if later you want to go to forced induction on a multi throttle engine this with the added pressure makes this problem worst . If drivability not just full throttle/full load is what you are after then you really have to go to a sequential system .
As far as the Autronic there is some really cheap ealier units out there secondhand $600-$800, all these units can be reconfigured with the latest software ie: sm4 software. If you thought the other brands of software was impressive then you better think again . The level of the self tune as well as being able to create the tuning screen from a plan screen and add with areas you want to see . As well the bringing to your attention readings moving trouble area which you have preset{ remember most are window on window screens so when a problem occurs you don't see it }. And all the other real time run replaying features and thats just for tuning , as far as the unit features i think that the level of people using this speaks for its self . Ahh also the traction control can be added to the early large box units too .When these unit become available to the general public i think these will be poping up everywhere in all kinds of vehicles .
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 10:06
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| Quote: |
shhhh Wolf are rumored to be producing a dash datalogger for the V4 close to what the Motec has, supposedly the circuit boards are in production presently with and estimated cost of around $2500, half that of motec with the same features
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I'll just wait til you get one mick... and then....  I'll borrow it... PERMANENTLY!! 
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 10:21
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what motec system have you got jonny im running a M800 with just about everthing turned on cam control lambda and 1meg of memory and beacon as well the dataloging in mine is fantastic it does track maping so i can see where im braking what gear and revs and speed im doing as well as lap times just as accurate as the dorian
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 10:34
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The blacktop ecu would probably suit all I really want as I can't get carried away with extra power unless I can find a diff to shorten (needs to be very short and small overall). Trouble is I do not have any of the silvertop loom at all so this would be a big job on top of sourcing a blacktop ecu.
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 10:37
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What about one of the older Wolf's....like the one for sale on this forum. 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Thu, 06 January 2005 20:51
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| improvedae86 wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 20:54 |
As far as your Ecu questions i haven't never seen a quad throttled engine ever run correctly on a non sequential 3d system , so that really rules out most . Sure most system might be able to run the engine and be tuned with the a higher output than the standard factory ecu at the upmost of the rev range . But most will not be able to be tuned in the mid range area ! . At this point the vacuum fluctuations from the reverberation of multi throttle set ups will have the air fuel ratios constantly variating at a rate most ecus will not be able to handle , with there simple mapping . Then if later you want to go to forced induction on a multi throttle engine this with the added pressure makes this problem worst . If drivability not just full throttle/full load is what you are after then you really have to go to a sequential system .
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This is where a secondary plenum comes into it, the factory 20v one works nicely and I've built them for a couple of cars. If you're running big cams, I'd definately be going for a TPS based setup. For standard cams, taking a vacuum reading off a plenum irons out the fluctuations and gives a nice, stable reading through the rev range.
I've driven my old setup back to back with a factory ECU 20v and there was no point where the factory motor had more power than the Halteched setup. The nicest thing was seeing nice, clean tan plugs whenever I checked them.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 01:44
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Same, but the car is still in the building stages ie seam welding and Roll cage, etc We chose this for the same reason's ie track mapping, braking, cylinder monitoring etc in rallying, very important cause the I can see where the co-driver made a wrong call too
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 03:32
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its always the navigators fault 
100 RGL, no your other left !!!
so will it be ready for Narooma or 2GO ??
Ben.
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Location:
Alice Springs
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 07:28
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Improvedae86 not sure what ypu mean when you say older autronic ECUs can be upgraded with SM4 software.The SM4 has not been released yet.SMC's and SM2's can be upgraded with later chips from the same model ECUs but you won't be able to put new SM4 functions into earlier ECUs
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 09:32
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| off-road wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 03:28 |
Improvedae86 not sure what ypu mean when you say older autronic ECUs can be upgraded with SM4 software.The SM4 has not been released yet.SMC's and SM2's can be upgraded with later chips from the same model ECUs but you won't be able to put new SM4 functions into earlier ECUs
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Meaning the latest software can be used in the earlier models for tuning track mapping etc , and the bigger case unit can be sent back to Autronic for the traction control circuit to be added into the ecu . As stated before its no available yet to the general public , but will be in the next few weeks .
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 09:59
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OK so after talking to a few more shops today I think I'm almost down to the path of buying another motor with all factory ECU etc and either selling the bare one I have or holding it for spares or another conversion. Probably fit the Morrris Minor as well.
New Haltech complete package = $1,395 and still have to address ignition system and cost of tuning, cost of ram tubes and individual air cleaners. One quote to supply, instal & tune = $2,200. Option to source basic computer package, instal myself and then return car for tuning also not overly attractive or cost effective and this was the way I thought I could go. Not worried about wiring up etc, happy to do this to save money just prefer proper tune as I have not had any experience with ECU's and tuning. Apparently can't come with base maps to be able to drive as basic package has no software etc and obviously they don't want to load any.
Purchase complete motor, wiring and loom from one yard for $1,500. Purchase complete front cut from another yard for $1,400. Good option even though not much else is of use to me as motor is going into MG Midget.
I know which one now seems more straigght forward and cost effective.
Of course heaps of people told me this before I started but I was hoping to tune well on MAP and have individual trumpets and ram tubes for that still retro look and weber like sound.
In general the Haltech guy expained something which made more sense than the way others (shops) had explained the problem.
Not so much that the ECU's could not read a vacumn from a quad equiped motor but that the change in vacumn was not that large so without heaps of resolution in the maps this change would not show up. eg ECU only reads in say 5" (of mercury) increments. 10" could be a fairly large change in load on the motor but only 2 steps recognised by ECU.
Something like that anyway.
Not sure if that's right either but makes more sense than not being able to sense any vacumn.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Fri, 07 January 2005 10:20
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| Quote: |
so will it be ready for Narooma or 2GO ??
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No, we're aimming for PSR with the newie.. the old girl atm has the engine out and is being fitted with the bitsa 20V, Re-ratioed GZE Lsd Box, keeping the Autronic setup and GZE ignition etc. This year we're only doing a few rallies as I'm back at uni doing a masters. So far the plan is to do Bathurst, Bega, Canberra, PSR and May be Melbourne... If I fit anything else in, well That'll be a bonus.
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Location:
Alice Springs
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Sat, 08 January 2005 08:41
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Improvedae86 My point is that your statement regarding upgrading older ECU's has nothing to do with the SM4.The later features of a given model can only be added to an earlier ECU of the same model. Functions on the SM4 cannot be put onto an earlier ECU unless it is a function available on that model in a later chip versian.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Sat, 08 January 2005 09:06
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Meaning the latest software can be used SOFTWARE not functions , so you can use the software functions , not hardware functions , unless you get the unit and send it back to Richard to get the traction control added . Well not for the next two weeks he is on holidays and the company is closed atm .
Sure you cannot have every single pin out designated to a function you choose and given any setting and function on the earlier units . I don't think i mentioned chip changing or hardware changes ? I am sure i have just mentioned SOFTWARE once again .
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Location:
Alice Springs
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Sat, 08 January 2005 09:26
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Once again my point is why name drop the sm4 into your post?I was not aware the SM4 had any SOFTWARE in it that is not already available now for use in the smc or sm2.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Sat, 08 January 2005 09:34
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Its not the SOFTWARE in the unit , that is programing from the SOFTWARE , the units is the HARDWARE .
As per the earlier post :
"sm4 software. If you thought the other brands of software was impressive then you better think again . The level of the self tune as well as being able to create the tuning screen from a plan screen and add with areas you want to see . As well the bringing to your attention readings moving trouble area which you have preset{ remember most are window on window screens so when a problem occurs you don't see it }. And all the other real time run replaying features and thats just for tuning , as far as the unit features i think that the level of people using this speaks for its self . Ahh also the traction control can be added to the early large box units too .When these unit become available to the general public i think these will be poping up everywhere in all kinds of vehicles ."
And read the bottom line , AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC , meaning you will have to wait for the lastest SOFTWARE which is ,only just finished the development testing by top level uses around the world.
Really man what is it with you and this unit ? HARDWARE or SOFTWARE ? i am puzzled and a little confused by the questioning
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Sat, 08 January 2005 11:24
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i think what he is tryin to say is
u can use the very latest software or the sm4 software
eg the software u load on your pc to laptop tune it
use it to tune sm4 sm2 and smc
u cant use it to tune the very first autronics with dos based software
but you might not be able to use the smc or sm2 laptop software to tune the new sm4 which prob wont be out for afew months still
traction control aint an upgrade
its only avaliable on the sm2 at the moment
the wires and pins are all there
u might just need the chip inside that does traction but from the past i think all sm2s can do traction
the new sm4 will have 2 bog plugs on it
i think similar to motec
so i dont know how the old can be upgraded to be similar to an sm4
im not too sure
hope to test an sm4 soon on a gtr
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's for 20 valve N/A (silvertop)
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Mon, 14 February 2005 03:42
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[quote title=improvedae86 wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 05:54]| shinybluesteel wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 02:48 |
just a quick one, i think this has ben answered before but i dont remember the reply,
can you run a 16 valve 4age with quad throttle bodies with the standard 16 valve computer?
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As far to the knowledge of most people its not possible , But some very smart person in japan has apparently carried this off will good results . The car in question is due to arrive the end of this week or early next week . As soon as its here after getting it running again i will be researching what there have done and checking it's tune and power output on the dyno . The vehicle has dyno sheets from japan with a output of 135rwhp and the engine is apparently stock internally , so this i have to see .
Update on this , yes it is posable , heres the web site of the car : http://www.ae-86.com , the engine does have other work and isnt stock , but its still posable . Bloody nice work
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