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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Thu, 06 January 2005 14:32
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hi folks,
i'm curious as to which engines run a waste-spark setup like the 7M-GTE?
The system is called a DLI ignition system, it uses a CAS containing a 24 wheel sensor and a 2 wheel sensor (or 2 single wheel sensors) and runs waste-spark coil packs driven by an igniter. It needs to ECU to detemine timing advance/retard as the sensors from the CAS are all locked.
THe CAS interiors looks very much like a 7M-GE and 1G-GTE dizzi:
and
You can read more about the DLI system here:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf
and scroll to page 9.
The reason i ask is that i'm wondering if my 1G dizzi could be adapted to run a DLI igniter and coils (if i drive the lot with a suitable ECU - and Megasquirt'n'Spark is supporting this system with some workarounds).
I'm guessing that 1J and beyond run CoP or a dizzi (if non turbo?) but what about 4agze or 1ggze? anything else? and any ideas on what the coil packs and ignitors might cost (used)?
tia, charles.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Thu, 06 January 2005 23:16
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gen 2, 3 and 4 4agze's run DLI, as does the 1GGZE
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 00:08
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VN-VX commodores use wasted spark coilpacks, i will be using direct fire eventually, but with coil on plug and a custom distributor.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 00:57
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| thechuckster wrote on Thu, 06 January 2005 22:32 |
The system is called a DLI ignition system, it uses a CAS containing a 24 wheel sensor and a 2 wheel sensor (or 2 single wheel sensors)
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I think you'll find all Toyota's run the 24:1 setup.
I know the 1UZFE does.
As for wasted spark, any Toyota that runs one ignition module/ignitor, and more than one coil, but less than one coil per plug runs wasted spark.
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 01:44
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The 7M engine range does,
The JZ engine range does as well (3Coils, 6 Cylinder...)
Most engines run wasted spark from memory... And a few run direct ign (RB25 etc)
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 01:47
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thanks guys...
so regardless of igniter, any dizzi providing crank and timing position will have the 24-1 wheel? this helps source spares (i have to remove 2 teeth for the MS setup)
I think the 1JZ-GTE runs CoP - but with the NA versions of the 1J and 2J appear to have a dizzi? or is that just the 2J
i'm mostly interested in which engine models have an igniter that drives waste-spark (for 6 or 4 cyl). So far the list appears to be:
7m-gte
1g-gze
4agze (gen's 2, 3, 4)
it's the ignitor that i need as it works out which coil pair to fire when - based on signals from the ECU. It also does dwell for the coils.
also, any idea why SC engines might be waste-spark but the newer turbo models (1JZ, 2JZ) go CoP? you'd think they would stick to one ignition setup? for forced induction engines?
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 02:03
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Why they would change them... Not sure...
Reliability issues maybe?
Cleaner sparks?
They could run a longer dweel time, requiring less current, meaning if the battery is half dead, the car can still fire (Mitsubishi use this... Upto 40ms dwell time)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 02:08
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| thechuckster wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 09:47 |
so regardless of igniter, any dizzi providing crank and timing position will have the 24-1 wheel?
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I'm pretty sure yes.
| thechuckster wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 09:47 |
also, any idea why SC engines might be waste-spark but the newer turbo models (1JZ, 2JZ) go CoP? you'd think they would stick to one ignition setup? for forced induction engines?
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Its called technology.
Toyota hasn't built a 4AGZE and 1GGZE since the late 80's (maybe EARLY 90's).
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 02:37
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PEEWEE - not all toyota dissys/CAS use the 24/1 setup.
The 4agze CAS uses a 24 tooth wheel for the actual crank angle, and another 2 tooth wheel (180 deg opposed) instead of the normal dissy single wheel.
The reason there is only 2 is there are only really two different spark events instead of 4. The ECU controlls which coil pack to fire using the IGd signal to the ignitor (AFAIK).
of course i can be wrong about HOW it works, as ive only ever tried to figure it out for myself.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 02:43
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| THE WITZL wrote on Fri, 07 January 2005 10:37 |
of course i can be wrong about HOW it works, as ive only ever tried to figure it out for myself.
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The 1uz has 2 as well, one on each cam bank.
I think its just for a reference to that the motor doesn't have to do 2 full revolutions before starting.
Only have to do one before the ecu knows where the motor is at.
The multicoil ones doesn't matter which one it picks up.
In the case of a 4cyl, it sees one pulse (of the 2) and knows to fire coil 1, then fires coil 2 half way between one pulse, and the 2nd one.
In the case of a 6cyl, it sees one pulse (of the 2) and knows to fire coil 1, then fires coil 2 a third of the way between one pulse, and the 2nd one (or after 4 of the 24 teeth pulses), then fires the 3rd coil another third way between the two pulses (or another 4 of the 24 teeth pulses.
When either one picks up the 2nd pulse, it fires the first coil again.
At least, this is MY understanding of it.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: which engines run DLI (waste spark) ignition?
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Fri, 07 January 2005 03:04
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this thread on MS might help understand more:
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4895
but this chunk of text seems to sum it up:
working with these signals:
the dizzi (or combo of sensors on crank & cam) send G1, G2 and Ne to the ECU (not the igniter). The ECU then sends IGt and IGdA and IGdB to te ignitor to do coil selection and coil firing.
for a 4cyl, you only need one of the 1Gd signals as there are only 2 coil packs to choose from.
(it also touches on how MS can use a modified 24 tooth trigger to replace three sensors.
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