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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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 Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 13:39
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when and spoke with my engineer today after 6 months of starting the rebuild  and a massiv list of things i wanted to ask and do to the car for engineering along with pics to show...
I am Happy to say that everything is a GO  he has approved my brake upgrade. i explained to him what i wanted to do and showed him all the current pics and he said it was fine and would pass on the spot no worried.
with the battery relocation, he said that the box has to be mounted to the boot floor and ALSO the battery!!!! the battery NEEDS to be clamped down as it is in the engine bay. so all i have to do there is buy a battery base and clamp and bolt that through the battery box and into the floor. the strap he says is only to hold the cover on the box and also it needs to be vented to outside, so im gonna vent that through the floor aswell. he has also approved that i can run the battery positive terminal through the chassis rail
with the boot surge tank and fuel pump location all that is legally required is that the boot area be sealed off from the cabin by a piece of metal only, that way if there is a leak or explosion then it wont get into the cabin as the metal is not flamable and therefore wont get into the cabin. i know it still can but that is the only requirement, therefore it does not need to be boxed off on its own and vented
now when i was there i was EXTREMELY worried about my aftermarket POD filter and Haltech ECU... but after thourough research of the EPA and RTA i couldnt find any reason not to engineer a POD filter, i mentioned this to him and he said the only reason why it is illegal is cause of the increase of induction noise and also being a forced injection engine that just makes it worse. we have therefore come to an agreement that he will engineer the pod as long as it is sheilded and induction noise reduced to a legal limit, ie, 96Db as it is pre 1983. i told him i will just get heat sheild material and cover it like that and he said thats fine and will pass HOW MAD IS THAT
also with all the extra drilling and stuff he said all that is required is that for everything that is not a bolt requires a rubber gromet. so 2 are required for the positive cable (one in boot and one in engine bay), one is required for the venting hose of the battery box
with the Haltech, apparently engineers in NSW had a meeting with the RTA and EPA a couple weeks ago and have been advised that there is no way in HELL they will allow them BUT he said to me that he does not check the electrical system when he goes to engineer it so if he cant see it then he assumes stock ECU is being used ... to that i replied you will never see it  so providing that the ECU is not easily visible then he will pass me but under the assumption that there is the stock ECU still there...
so in summary my brake upgrade approved, my POD filter approved, my battery relocation approved and my fuel system approved and written on the certificate... with the ECU that is some what approved (i guess you could say that)... so all in all I AM A VERY HAPPY CHAPPY and can now complete everything with a peace of mind, now all i need is the money 
only stupid thing is that i forgot to ask him bout the filler nozzle, i guess ill call him tomorrow...
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 13:54
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thats awesome news!
good work mate!
now to do the same thing with mine..
its not ready yet! nono
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 13:59
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Just on the pod filter subject, your engineer cannot approve the filter. He can only document it one the cert which means squat, so dont use that any kind of argument with police or the transport dept.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 15:37
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| Cool1 wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 00:59 |
Just on the pod filter subject, your engineer cannot approve the filter. He can only document it one the cert which means squat, so dont use that any kind of argument with police or the transport dept.
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im not too sure bout that! cause my engineer was very strict and somewhat forceful that if the POD is not completely sealed and and silenced then immediate fail... he actually recommended that i get like a VT filter box and use that as they are designed from factory to be heat resistent and silenced and then run a cold air intake setup
also he actually said that so long as it is boxed/sealed off and not loud then the cops cannot say anything as it is approved and engineered... i dont believe he would say that just so I (who he doesnt know and we only met the first time today) can get his licence revoked or whatever
on top of that i ran a thread bout POD filters in tech/conversions a couple weeks back bout this exact issue and supplied the EPA guidelines for it. when i mentioned that to him he stated that they are the only requirements for PODS in NSW... he said it has nothing to do with pollution, AFM OR MAP sensors or anything other than literally NOISE. the EPAs and RTAs requirements is pure noise based and basically they will not allow excessive and unnecessary noise levels for a road/street car.
when i mentioned bout pollution and what not he said that has no effect on anything as the air is drawn in and therefore no pollution issues as the pollution comes from the exhaust and so long as that meets guidelines then there is nothing to worry about. also on that note he stated that because the car is PRE pollution requirements i dont even need a CAT for the exhaust but rather that it would be better to have one, ie, i DONT need a CAT for engineering purposes
we spent a good couple hours together going through every little detail, every scenario that could occur with cops. i basically walked in there and said that i want to be covered for every possible scenario with respect to cops and defects... by the time i walked out of there i literally had a head ache cause of all the info he gave and the requirements... what i mentioned up top was a summary of the meeting but we went through practically every law in respect to vehicle modifications in NSW so effectively i am covered for absolutely everything other than the ECU
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 20:28
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And the name of this guru is?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 22:00
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Location too please... and tell em the price son!
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Wed, 19 January 2005 22:10
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All very interesting information!
When I had the 3tgte conversion engineered I was running factory ECU and have been real worried that the 3sgte will never pass with the autronic. But sounds like if I hide it well all will be sweet 
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 00:00
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As I said he can mention the pod on his cert but it means fuck all as there is no mod code that he can certify the pod with.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 00:40
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This guy cant be to strict if he is allowing you to drill through the bottom of the battery box either.
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:16
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im not sure your engineer would be happy to know that you've just told the entire world that he does the dodge with ECU's.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:18
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| Cool1 wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 11:40 |
This guy cant be to strict if he is allowing you to drill through the bottom of the battery box either.
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how do you mean? how else are you supposed to mount it down?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:29
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Yeah this has confused me more.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:30
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metal bracket securing the box from the outside is the other option.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:33
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| fade-e wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 11:18 |
| Cool1 wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 11:40 |
This guy cant be to strict if he is allowing you to drill through the bottom of the battery box either.
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how do you mean? how else are you supposed to mount it down?
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By rights if you drill holes in the box or change the original specification of the box, you need paper work from the manufacture stating that the box will still meet their regulations. Sounds lame, but thats the way it is.
When my work first started fitting batteries in cabin they went through all this bullshit and decided against modifying the box. We now make our own metal brackets that sit around the box to stop it from moving around. The strap supplied with the box simply holds it down in the bracing.
You also need to make sure that you do buy a box that does meet the Australian safety regulation and not one sold by silly sollys.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:34
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Did that make sense?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:38
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Ok cool.. So... you first make some kind of metal tray/base that bolts to the floor.. Sit box in this tray with the strap holding it to the tray?
My plan was to put a metal plate inside the box, which bolted through the box into the floor. Then I could make some internal bracing inside the box to hold the battery down.
But if no holes allowed in the box.. I see no way at all to mount the battery down apart from packing with foam etc.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:49
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I just talked to the engineer that I used with my 3tgte conversion.
He said that the battery MUST be somehow fixed to the car. So its not good enough just having it inside the box. Holes have to be drilled in the box for brackets to go through so the battery itself is fixed to the car. He said its not good enough to have the box fixed to the car and not the battery.
He also seemed to think most of the boxes are not completely sealed and would be quite concerned about engineering them without some additional sealing.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:50
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I'll try and get some photos of an install we have done.
But what we use is 1.5inch angle steel and weld up a brace that sits tightly around the box.
This gets bottled to the floor and the strap gets bolted to the floor in the center of this brace. If you shop around you can actually get boxes with two straps.
We then put a very thin piece of flat rubber mat in the brace so that the bolt heads dont damage the plastic box.
The box is then fitted with battery and strapped up.
We dont have the problem with the batterys being loose in the box as our batterys are a tight fit anyway.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 01:54
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Any recommendations where to get the boxes with 2 straps? I've checked out a few auto parts stores but all just real cheap looking 1 strap jobs.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:18
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Did he say anything about the box not being completely sealed and extra sealing would be required?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:21
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With a bracket made up like I described the battery is not going anywhere if it is fitted correctly. Even in a roll over.
Also you can foam rubber or even just rubber that acid wont hurt.
The good thing is you are thinking hard about this. But also think about the bolts you would use to through the bottom of the box. How long do you think they would last in a sealed box that has costic(spelling?) gases floating around? They will corrode away within a few months.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:34
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| fade-e wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 11:37 |
I found him to be pretty strict in the engineering requirements, he said too that even if there is a missing rubber gromet or if there isnt one where required as outlined then i would fail. so he goes into alot of detail with his inspections just not electrical...
also DO NOT mention ECUs to him, i was put onto him by a very good friend of mine and when i mentioned bout the Haltech he said if he couldnt see it then he wont worry but still is ILLEGAL, he also mentioned never to talk bout the ECU with him again so if you call him let him assume stock ECU being used at all times
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He was probably strict because you asked him to be as you said you wanted to cover all situations which includes strict coppers. But at the end of the day a copper cant see a hidden ecu.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:37
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Yeah I can definately see what you are saying. If it wasn't for the problems with mounting the battery itself - regards what i've heard the engineer say as well as someone mentioning grief at the track. I'd be not thinking about this and using your method of mounting.
Just seems i'm wasting my time doing it all and then not being able to pass engineering as well as coping shit at track days.
But yeah, seems to defeat the whole purpose by putting bolts through the box...
Seems there is no way to please the authorities with this one.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:40
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yeah i see your point and honestly in everything youve said earlier i can understand and agree with you Cool1... out of everything my main concern was the battery relocation not only cause its in the boot but also cause the surge will be in there aswell... im putting the battery on the passenger side and the surge on the driver side
my best option is to do what he said but before putting it all in take it to him and get it checked once over and reconfirm placement
he also said that i could put a metal plate next to each (to the right of the battery and left of the surge) like a wall but he said thats just over kill
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 03:48
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| 4agte wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 14:34 |
| fade-e wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 11:37 |
I found him to be pretty strict in the engineering requirements, he said too that even if there is a missing rubber gromet or if there isnt one where required as outlined then i would fail. so he goes into alot of detail with his inspections just not electrical...
also DO NOT mention ECUs to him, i was put onto him by a very good friend of mine and when i mentioned bout the Haltech he said if he couldnt see it then he wont worry but still is ILLEGAL, he also mentioned never to talk bout the ECU with him again so if you call him let him assume stock ECU being used at all times
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He was probably strict because you asked him to be as you said you wanted to cover all situations which includes strict coppers. But at the end of the day a copper cant see a hidden ecu.
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HELL YEAH, when i first walked in and we started talking i said to him from the get go that i never want to have hassels with cops what so ever, if i ever get pulled over then i can pull out the cert and sit back and relax so to speak...
i told him it will be a street car but i will also take it to runs and track days and stuff so i want everything done right so i dont get too many headaches from everyone and thats what he said i needed to do
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 04:13
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So anyone know where to get an RTA approved box?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 04:55
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Joel. any good marine shop should have some good ones.
Also another idea for mounting: If you make a brace that goes around the bottom of the box like I described, you could make a bracket that goes over the top of the box. This would be just like the bracket that normally holds the battery down, except it goes over the box.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 08:30
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i was told that the 1st one would get approved as long as you get a venting hose made and bolt it down... also the first one is the one that i have and i even showed him the pictures of it and he said it was fine
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 10:14
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the first one is what I was recommended as a cheap-but-legal option.
shane: caustic
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 10:38
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Hi,
Has anyone considered making their own box from scratch?
I have tiny little Odyssey mounted in a box on it's side, that was made for it and that is welded to the floor with a clamp that holds the Odyssey into it. My engineer said that despite the laws saying that you need a sealed box and vent etc that he would pass it due to the sealed battery being used.
The law was written before sealed battery technology had progressed as far as it has.
That said has anyone seen how much effort some factory boot installations go to - such as the MX5?
Not a whole lot. The MX5 is mounted in a tray as it would be under the hood. And then has this tube go from the top of the battery into the gunnels on the side of the boot - not very sealed really!
I guess I will soon find out if I have to change it........
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:00
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| draven wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 20:14 |
shane: caustic
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I nearly had it 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:19
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"My engineer said that despite the laws saying that you need a sealed box and vent etc that he would pass it due to the sealed battery being used.
The law was written before sealed battery technology had progressed as far as it has."
yeah, engineer might pass it, but you can still get defected and be boned
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:22
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 He said boned
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 11:36
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| fade-e wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 00:39 |
with the boot surge tank and fuel pump location all that is legally required is that the boot area be sealed off from the cabin by a piece of metal only, that way if there is a leak or explosion then it wont get into the cabin as the metal is not flamable and therefore wont get into the cabin. i know it still can but that is the only requirement, therefore it does not need to be boxed off on its own and vented
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So... on my RA23 when I take off my back seats and the sound deadening, you can easily see the fuel tank, there is only a couple of braces going across. Would this mean I'd need to weld a plate over these holes to seal off my boot completely for my fuel setup?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 14:07
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| Major Clod wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 22:36 |
| fade-e wrote on Thu, 20 January 2005 00:39 |
with the boot surge tank and fuel pump location all that is legally required is that the boot area be sealed off from the cabin by a piece of metal only, that way if there is a leak or explosion then it wont get into the cabin as the metal is not flamable and therefore wont get into the cabin. i know it still can but that is the only requirement, therefore it does not need to be boxed off on its own and vented
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So... on my RA23 when I take off my back seats and the sound deadening, you can easily see the fuel tank, there is only a couple of braces going across. Would this mean I'd need to weld a plate over these holes to seal off my boot completely for my fuel setup?
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thats what i said to him! i told him that the original is behind the seat and only a piece of wood covers it from the actual seat... he said to that the the tank is far from any possibal coliision points, ie, if hit from the rear or sides there is no way in hell that it would reach the fuel tank, also cause it is bolted to the strut bracket then it is very firmly held in place. further to that the fuel lines go down and under the car so if anything were to happen it would more than likely be under the car and therefore still out of the cabin area and that is why it is fine... but with the surge cause the lines are still within the boot it would have nowhere to go,eg, if the lift pump blew then the full force would remain with in the boot and thats why he wants a metal piece/sheild between the back seat and the boot. it is more likely that the metal sheild would buckle from heat rather than catch on fire and burn everything else, also that extra seconds you gain before it does actually get into the cabin allows you to either get out of the car and run or even give that extra bit of time to grab the fire extinguisher... and thats why he wants a metal sheild... he said it can be any metal wether steel, milkd steel, iron, alluminium or whatever just as a baracade
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 14:33
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ARC make some nice dual panel-filter intake boxes.
not cheap but just as good as the pod
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 16:15
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whats the specs on exhaust for the 3TG?
funny.. I just got a yellow 
so homo
ahh well.
get into gear and fix all the things 'ive been meaning to get around to' etcetcetc
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Thu, 20 January 2005 19:23
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2 things:
1. You said 96db limit for PRE 1983 cars. What's the limit for post 93?
2. What the hell are you doing?! Take down the guy's details! Cops can read too you know. If people want it, let them PM you.
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Finally seen the engineer
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Fri, 21 January 2005 00:08
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| thu187 wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 06:23 |
2 things:
1. You said 96db limit for PRE 1983 cars. What's the limit for post 93?
2. What the hell are you doing?! Take down the guy's details! Cops can read too you know. If people want it, let them PM you.
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1. post 83 is 90Db
2. good point
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