| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 00:34
|
 |
Hi all, just having a bit of trouble trying to decide what to do here.
I've been planning to start getting stuck into my RWD 3s-gte project soon.
I already own heaps of parts for it. But it will cost approx $4000 to finish it.
Left to do is -
Buy a turbo
Custom exhaust manifold
Custom inlet manifold
Sump mods
Custom engine mounts
Engine maching
Headgakset kit
Clutch
Now here is where i'm getting confused what to do..
I reckon I could build a 4agte up completely for around the same price it is going to cost me to finish the 3sgte. Or purchase an already build 4agte for this figure.
Now I could sell all my 3sgte parts (forged pistons, custom flyhweel, shot peened rods, arp bolts, oil pumps, water pumps, 2S RWD parts, Gen 3 ST205 head, etc, etc ,etc) for around 3k approx.
So buy doing that, it is only going to cost around 1k out of pocket for the 4agte build.
Originally I went down the 3sgte path thinking it would be necessary to make the power I wanted. But now I am seeing 4agte engines making over 160 rwkw with ease!
So why would I want a larger heavier 3sgte engine that is going to cost more, when a 4agte will make the power I want?
My aim is around 180kw at the wheels.
So yeah, help me make my decision!  let me know some pros and cons of all this and can anyone tell me why to continue with the 3sgte build instead of scrapping it for a 4agte?
Cheers
Joel
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 00:53
|
|
If this conversion is for your RA28 (weight of 1100kg?? you would know the weight) I would continue with the 3SGTE so you get a little more capacity. If it were a TA22 I would say the choice is yours and either way will be fine.
A 4AGTE is quite a small engine to push along your sized car (even with more than 160kw). I have a 4AGTE in my 920kg car making upwards of 170rwkw and it runs 12's over the quarter.
I guess it really depends on what you want from your car in the end. The 4AGTE will potentially give a nice package (especially if you are aiming for a nimble handling beast). But the 3SGTE will probably lend itself to a more suitable package for your sized vehicle.
I think you probably need to consider the power and torque values other than the peak values too. It's the midrange that is where most of your fun most of the time is spent and the 3SGTE would probably offer more in this area and be better suited to your sized car.
If I put 3 people in my car it would probably still be just under the weight of your car with a driver and my car with this many passengers really has it acceleration inhibited by the extra weight, still good, but nowhere near as good as driver only or just one skinny passenger 
Sounds like a tough decision, but i would stick with the 3SGTE path. 4AGTE's have become too common..........
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:04
|
|
ok, before I start, I'll explain I'm a little biased towards the 3sgte as that's the path I've chosen.
A 4agte will definately be enough for you, but I think to achieve 180rwkw, you'd have to build it properly (as you've started with the 3sgte). Or go the risky path and leave the internals standard =/
That said, I fail to see how you'd build a 4agte up with good internals, decent sized turbo, custom manifolds, aftermarket ecu, etc for 4K.
The 4K you're planning on spending on the 3sgte I assume is to finish the job properly. Although probably not the most financially smart decision (as we all know how much you actually recoup when you sell a custom car), I think you'd be more satisfied in the end with the 3sgte.
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:21
|
|
Thanks all for the information so far. Interesting what you said ke382tg about the midrange and how it may struggle with the extra weight.
RA28 is somewhere around 1100 - 1150kg with everything in it.
I buggeted the $4000 for a 4agte build on these rough assumptions -
$800 or so for a bare 4agze
$800 maching work (balance, hone, head service, etc)
$500 for rebuild parts (gaskets, rings & bearings)
$700 for a T28 S15 turbo
$500 for exhaust manifold
$150 for RWD inlet manifold
$250 for injectors
I'm sure there is some bits & pieces I have missed there.
Not sure about pistons for these.. Heard the factory ones are quite good.
I already have autronic ECU so no aftermarket management needed.
Basically with the 4agte or 3sgte, its just to build up the engine as the RA28 is already setup with all the exhaust, fuel system, ecu, etc.
The 3SGTE sounds like the go though based on this thread so far. The thing that bugs me a bit about the 3sgte is the amount of custom made parts required for it.
It's going to need custom or modified - inlet manifold (runners, plenum etc), turbo manifold, engine mounts, sump, oil drains from head, bellhousing mods, flywheel, clutch bearing/fork probs).
Just seems a real headache and I'd perfer something a bit more factory than that. 4agte really is just a 4agze, with a custom turbo manifold and factory inlet rwd inlet manifold. Oh yeah and one of those 4A - W5x bellhousings.
But yeah.. if its not going to cut it its not going to cut it. Damn toyota not making a RWD 16v 1.8 or 2ltr engine.
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:30
|
|
I reckon the extra torque through the midrange and even low down would be a bit better to your sized car.Having driven only 4age'z and 3sge's(NA only) the difference in style of driving is just so different.I reckon youd have more fun with the larger capacity.
If you want to save some money also, check the FOR SALE section regularly as i've seen a few RWD 3s manifolds for sale lately.
Good luck with it all
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:35
|
|
| Quote: |
Interesting what you said ke382tg about the midrange and how it may struggle with the extra weight.
|
I guess I should describe it not so much as struggling but more as dampened acceleration (or hindered fun). It will still get up and go, but with nowhere near the punch as when the weight is decreased
| Quote: |
Not sure about pistons for these.. Heard the factory ones are quite good.
|
They are VERY good and reasonably priced too.
My engine has never been opened and has been in the car for about 5 years now, they are a tough little bit of gear straight from the factory
| Quote: |
Just seems a real headache and I'd perfer something a bit more factory than that.
|
You could do what I would like to do as my next project: 3RZFE (made into a 3RZFTE)  2.7 L 16V twin cam turbo. Still a lot of work but very cool and a bit different at this stage (only a few getting around). Bolts up to a W series gearbox, RWD configured, very tough internals (no need to open it up for low boost applications).
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:45
|
|
I'm actually quite happy with the power the 3tgte makes (167rwkw last dyno run).. But the thing vibrates like a massive hmm vibrator? and after spending $1000 rebuilding an almost brand new engine to try and resolve the problem and still having it... i'm pretty pissed to say the least and would quite happily see the thing gone.
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:46
|
|
|
Whats a 3RZFE from?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Toymods Club Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:46
|
|
Joel - As has already been said, the 3SGTE will give you sooooo much more torque! Out of interest, how would your car compare (in terms of weight) with say Bigworms 23? Am I correct in assuming a couple of hundred kgs advantage his way?
To be honest, I think you would quite possibly be a little dissapointed going from your 3T to a 4A in your 28.. As someone else said above - It would still get up and boogey, but depending on gear choice you might have to wait a bit for the power to come on. The 3S will make more torque more quickly..
|
|
|
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 01:54
|
|
| Quote: |
I'm actually quite happy with the power the 3tgte makes (167rwkw last dyno run)..
|
I can email you a dyno run of mine if you want to compare it to your current setup and see what the torque curve and mid range power look like? It might give you an idea on what you would be in for.
| Quote: |
But the thing vibrates like a massive hmm vibrator?
|
Sell it to a sex shop and have them fit it inside the worlds biggest vibrating dildo!
| Quote: |
Whats a 3RZFE from?
|
A hilux, some hiaces, Tacomas in the US....
|
|
|
Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 04:30
|
|
| TurboRA28 wrote on Fri, 28 January 2005 08:34 |
Now I could sell all my 3sgte parts
|
Joel depending on what you decide, I would be interested in all your 3S parts.
Cheers
Gabe
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 05:09
|
|
| Quote: |
I can email you a dyno run of mine if you want to compare it to your current setup and see what the torque curve and mid range power look like? It might give you an idea on what you would be in for.
|
That'd be great.. I can compare that to my 3t-gte graph and get a good idea..
Can you email to - joel_fitzgerald@hotmail.com ??
Cheers
Joel
|
|
|
Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 06:01
|
|
|
joel on the exhaust it seems a lot of guys cut it off at the head and turn it up side down and reweld it ,or you could try and find a altezza 3sge and turbo that you would have to take the rods and pistons out and put yours in but the plenum would fit and you could make your own exhaust .next idea is try to find a st215 caldina 3sge turbo motor as the altezza plenum will bolt to this head and this motor also runs coils on plugs and no disy at all
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 06:10
|
|
If i'm reading this correctly this 4agte is making some very impressive torque figures -
|
|
|
Location:
ACT
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 06:35
|
|
In the longterm i'd rather have a larger capacity engine not working as hard to achieve the power rather than a smaller engine workin its ass off.
later on if u decide on more hp's, then the option is there.
just my 2 bobs worth.
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2004
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Fri, 28 January 2005 06:41
|
|
vibrating engine? did you get it all balanced etc?
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Sun, 30 January 2005 08:06
|
|
| Quote: |
vibrating engine? did you get it all balanced etc?
|
Yeah had it all apart (again) and balanced everything. New clutch & pressure plate. New harmonic balancer. New rods. It's a very long long story but i've given up on it and will just put up with it I think as no mechanic/engine builders can solve it.
Thanks all for your suggestions. I've decided to keep at the 3sgte and to try and get some more motivation up pulled it all out today and had a play.
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
|
|
Re: Should I scrap 3SGTE build in favour of 4AGTE build?
|
Sun, 30 January 2005 08:36
|
|
| TurboRA28 wrote on Sun, 30 January 2005 19:06 |
Thanks all for your suggestions. I've decided to keep at the 3sgte and to try and get some more motivation up pulled it all out today and had a play.
|
Great to hear!
|
|
|
