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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 08:22
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oil relocation kit arrived today (thanks kristian), but it comes with "13mm SAE 30R7" fuel hose with ring clamps. now, thinking like I do, oil gets a buttload hotter than fuel, and probably reaches higher pressures.
Will this setup be sufficient and reliable for my mild 1jz, or should I go the whole hog and get braided hose and screw fittings for the ol relocation kit? (bearing in mind I'm not a super millionaire)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 08:47
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it's not the braid that makes it good tubing, and a lot of braided tube is not entirely functional..
when i spoke to Enzed, they suggested that only teflon lines would withstand both the heat and pressure, and teflon lines are usually braided to withstand damage... normal rubber lines are weaker at higher temps (or so "they" say), and since it is possible to run an oil temp of >130deg or so (tho not recommended), you need something that can take it..
basically, lookup the tech docs for the line you have. if it can take sayy 150C and 100Psi continuously in contact with fuel and oil, then it should be ok.
Cya, Stewart
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 09:03
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it can take 250 degrees F, but it's a low pressure fuel hose - 50psi max.
so I guess I should go talk to pirtek
did your lines cost you uber $?
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 12:34
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Got quote today for 3 hoses, teflon, 1/4 with s/s fittings.
1 x 1m
1 x 2m
1 x 4m
plus ancillaries, little change from $1000-
Whats that about not being a millionaire? Well not my money, just get a good hyd hose, should take pressure and temp, get screw in fittings, not crimps so you can remake hoses yourself.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 13:08
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sounds scarily close..
i didn't actually get them, but the guy was saying they are around $90 a meter for the 'proper' teflon braided hose..
but thats only 1/4" stuff, whereas if you have a full flow oil cooler, surel;y you would want to go much bigger?
what do race kiddies use?
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 14:29
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is anything written on the hose? like "W.P."(working pressure) or "burst strength"?
"low pressure" to hydraulic hose people usually means somewhere around 150-250psi working pressure or 300psi burst strength.
the WP will be about 50 to 60% of its burst strength if both aren't listed.
i'd try and find out what the minimum spec for "SAE 30R7" is, and hope it's not a counterfit/bootleg/whatever.
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 20:41
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Hmmm
I deal with around 10,000psi (air).
Full flow oil lines would be 3/8 or 1/2 I would think (that's what I would use.
BTW my quote was less 50%
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Fri, 28 January 2005 21:28
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Be aware that the pressure in the oil filter lines shouldn't be that high. You should be able to use a good quality non-braided type hose (don't go to pirtek-just a small backstreet hydraulic shop will do-much lower $$$$). Also, it would be a good idea to fit an oil cooler to the car as well. You'll get increased oil pressure in the motor and your oil will last a lot longer. a really cheap way of sorting that is with an oil bypass valve off the side of a toyota crown (they have oil coolers as standard) along with the cooling core. You'll be lucky to spend $10 at the wreckers.
Another way to do the oil cooler lines is with steel bundy tube or copper and use brass compression fittings. They take a little longer to make, however they are very tidy and dirt cheap-although you will need to mount the filter on the engine somewhere.
Cheers
Sean
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 00:07
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true, but it depends if it is a bypass or full flow oil cooler arrangement. and the pressure in the oil filter WILL be full engine pressure (since the oil goes from pump to filter then to block) which (in my case) is around 60psi at normal temps, and 80psi when cold.
"SAE30R7"
http://www.parker.com/ead/cm2.asp?cmid=3915
from
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofall.htm
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My experience (as someone who's in the state that originated oxy fuels 10 years ago is that the old type flex line, carb-rated, and stamped SAE 30R7, gets soft and gummy and/or hard and brittle in oxy fuels, and that the nylon fuel filters sold by various companies can craze and get sticky/soft in it.
Solutions to These Problems
Replace the flex line in your fuel system - ALL of it - with EFI (Fuel Injection) hose, stamped SAE 30R9. This stuff is good to 900 psi and resists EVERYTHING. Although EFI line should, by now, be available in most reasonably-well-stocked auto parts stores, there are still some clueless counter staffers who will try to pawn-off regular fuel line (SAE 30R7) as EFI hose.
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http://www.hbdthermoid.com/automotive.htm
so 30R6 and 30R7 are "premium" fuel and vapour hoses, and soR9 is fuel injection hose? i should check my car as i have parker hose from enzed....
meh, it'll be fine for a while at least  if it starts hardening, chenge it?
btw, anyone have an SAE standards account?
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 01:47
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right.
the 5/16 and 1/4 hose i got from Enzed is labelled 30R2 type3
from http://www.hbdthermoid.com/images/industrial_hose/ Industrial_Hose_Price_Pages_HBD_THB-O-S-19447.pdf
they rate it at (for 1/2" pipe, which is bigger than i have):
burst pressure 700psi
working pressure 175psi (hence the 4:1 design)
the pipe i have has printed 400psi..
now, 30R7, from the same list has (for 1.5" ID):
burst pressure 175psi
working pressure 35psi
for 1.5" in 30R2, it's BP= 400psi, WP= 100psi.
EDIT
from:
SAE30R2 type 3 in 5/16" is rated at 400psi "max operating pressure"
http://www.canalrubber.com/SAE30R2Type3.htm
whereas 30R7 they don't give specs, but say it's for fuel, and crankcase vapour type stuff.
http://www.canalrubber.com/FuelLineVaporEmissonVen tilationHose.htm
Cya, Stewart
[Updated on: Sat, 29 January 2005 01:51]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 07:06
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mm - so inadequate is the verdict.
What year crowns come with the bypass valve and oil cooler? I'm still not sure whether to run a full or bypass cooler, but if I can source a bypass valve and cooler cheaply from a crown, that would probably be the go.
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 11:55
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I may have one on an engine at home. I can also make solid lines in stainless steel and get all fittings at cost + 10% if your keen. Give me a call during the week.
Justin
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 15:18
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Yeah Stewart-the sandwich type setups do see the full engine oil pressure-and hence my inherent suspicion of such set-ups with flexible hoses. Purely because you are exposing yourself to the risk of a burst hose in the critical engine oil feed circuit. I tend to refer to such risks as those which are relatively easy to avoid.
If you are looking at a remote oil filter setup, I'd be inclined to do the following-
Mount the oil filter itself somewhere on the engine where it is relatively easy to access. Put the plate on the motor, but get some screw in fittings for it and run steel bundy tube from the plate to the filter using brass compression fittings. (1/2 works fine-order it from a hydraulic supply shop or an automotive brake workshop. Pretty damn cheap.
(I say mount the filter on the motor as if you are using steel bundy you don't want the engine moving and the filter staying still-crrraaaaaccccckkkkkkkk....ssspprrraayyyyyyyy y....grind grindgrindclunkclunkclunk etc........=-)
Once this is set-up-find an outlet from the engine block oil circuit. Most engines will have a decent threaded plug in them somewhere where a machining process has been carried out to create an oil gallery.
My guess is that a 1J should have a main oil gallery running from front to back like an M series with a big 8mm allen head plug in it. If it isn't easily accessible, there should be somewhere to tap in without needing to dril anything.
Once you have access to the main circuit, grab a bypass valve from a crown (or indeed get one from a hydraulic shop-but the crown one will be less dollars) and feed the oil to it. This will be at full system pressure, so don't skimp on the braided teflon hose, or again, use steel bundy and an engine block mount (much cheaper.......).
Then feed a flexible hose from the valve to a oil cooler, and then back to the sump. The oil circuit post valve will be open to the sump and so will not be at any appreciable pressure. As long as you hose can stand up to around 100-120 centigrade you are laughing. Just have a look at the std oil cooler return hoses on an M series! Absolute garden hose-and after 30 years it's generally still intact.
From my experience, the 72-75 crowns have the oil cooler set-up, although the later ones may have it as well. You'll recognise it as an alloy item bolted onto the block near the oil filter, with a hose going to a small rectangular cooling core next to the radiator and a return line going back to a banjo fitting into the sump. When you go to a wreckers, act dumb and don't let on you know what it's for, ("it's for my dad" or some crap), otherwise the price can go up. Even the actual cooling cores on the crowns are very good-they are a proper envelope style core as opposed to an el cheapo tube and fin type.
Anyway-take it easy, and I'll get some prices from a hydraulic shop near me for teflon hoses. My guess is that they shouldn't set you back more than $150-$200.
Sean
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Location:
tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: braided oi lines: wanky or practical?
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Sat, 29 January 2005 22:21
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mm - so inadequate is the verdict.
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No, not at all!! you've just got to know the capabilities of the hose, and know that its fittings are compatable - the model/design that is specified by the manufacturer for that model hose.
these push on/socketless fittings are good for the hoses pressure limit, and you don't have as much chance of failure as from the socket type/multi-piece fittings from a bad install.
having a swivel fitting on one end is nice.
if these fittings DON'T have enough flat space for the clamp between the last barb and the shoulder, then you should NOT be them. a clamp over the fitting barbs or bead will not seal very well.
any use of hard lines has GOT TO BE to something mounted as solid as possible, and i think should be avoided, unless its something like was on the BMC A & B engines - Spridget & MGA/B & MGTD - short & solid & well made.
bypass oil cooler systems are almost a complete waste of time, but if its got one from the factory, or you get one for free, it's better then nothing, if you NEED it. my AE86 4AG cooler is covered up 6 months of the year to keep its heat up.
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