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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2003
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3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 04:16
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Hey all i have just bought a 3sgte engine and i am not sure what model its is if its a 165,185,205. Dose anyone have a pic of the dirrerent engines???
I have had a look in the search but could not find whats differnt between 165 and 185. I have found that the diff between the 205 and 185 is
| AE82TwinCam wrote on Tue, 17 February 2004 13:19 |
from what I've picked up from various posts is that the 3rd Gen 3s-gte out of the st205's has far more potential for power in stock form. They have bigger stock injectors (550cc I think) and a better head design, they also possess a better matched turbo (don't know the extact model turbo).
Hope this helps a bit
-Andrew
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if u could help it would be great
Shaun
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Location:
VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 04:22
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does it have side feed injectors?
what shape are the intake ports?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 04:59
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firstly, why would you fork money out for a engine that you know nothing about?
2ndly below is a picture of a gen1 3sgte (st165)
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 06:16
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because it has just been rebuilt with all the top gear. On the engine dyno it pulled 556hp at the fly on 20 psi i can run up to 25psi and 32psi on gas. I was told i will pull 10s in a sw20 mr2 thats why and i only thought what gen was the engine today. I just want to know whats different to all the other gens. the engine has all internals done and a hi flow ct26 hpc coated. Just want to know what was differnt when the engines are stock. My other 3sgte which i belive is a 185 has a differnt inlet manifold to this engine. Can u change the manifolds ova if the 205 is better ???
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 09:01
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if it is so worked of its tits and has new stronger internals it doesnt really matter what gen is it then does it? a good list of differences between gen 2 early sw20s and st185 and gen 3 94+ mr2 and st205 is here i got this from slender.mine.nu the mr2 forums
its more mr2 centred but u get the idea.
if yours has been so wored then like i said it probably doesnt matter what gen it is n e more.
Posted - 13/01/2005 : 13:12:39 Show Profile Visit Bud's Homepage Send Bud an ICQ Message Click to see Bud's MSN Messenger address Send Bud a Yahoo! Message
- Output increased to 240hp
- MAP sensor instead of AFM
- Bosch D-Jetronic (Gen III) vs. L-Jetronic (relatively primitive) engine management
- CT20b turbo replaces CT26
- Boost raised from 10psi to 13psi
- Fuel cut raised from 12 psi to 18 psi
- Different ECU
- 4 wire O2 sensor
- Shim under bucket valve shims
- slightly more aggressive cams
- Revised internals (pistons, con-rods etc.)
- Revised cylinder head cooling passages/water jackets
- Revised intake manifold (8 'independent long ports' reduced to 4)
- intake manifold inlet air temperature sensor added. i.e. after turbo and intercooler.
- Revised gearbox with close ratio gearing
- lower compression ratio
- stainless steel head gasket
- factory 540cc injectors replace 430cc injectors
- revised fuel rail with bigger bore and relocated pressure regulator
- TVIS eliminated
- EGR eliminated
- LSD in 80% of them
- throttle body increased from 55mm to 60mm
- inlet valve lift increased from 8.2 to 8.7
- Less restrictive exhaust elbow
- Aluminum oil pan
- more rigid alloy sump and additional oil baffles
- Factory Catch can
- Better Oil Cooler and relocated oil filter (bottom)
- 4 Channel ABS coupled with Traction Control available
- No. 1 compression ring described as 'stainless steel' instead of just 'steel'. Oil ring is described as 'stainless steel' instead of 'a combination of steel and stainless steel'.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 25 March 2005 09:55
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| 3sgte wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 17:16 |
it pulled 556hp at the fly on 20 psi i can run up to 25psi and 32psi on gas. I was told i will pull 10s in a sw20 mr2 thats why and i only thought what gen was the engine today. I just want to know whats different to all the other gens. the engine has all internals done and a hi flow ct26 hpc coated.
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I'd love to know what has been done to the exhaust housing on that CT26. This is by far the most power I have ever heard claimed for an upgraded CT26, generally they don't even get anywhere near 300HP at the wheels which I guess comes out at around 400 at the crank. Do you have a copy of this dyno sheet that you can post?
You said the intake manifold looks different to your Gen2 manifold, in what way is it different? Does it have single runners to each port? How many studs hold the exhaust manifold to the head?
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On Probation
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sgte
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Wed, 13 April 2005 08:57
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If it is a ct26 turbo charger and has a air/flow meter then it is a 185 or 165
The 205 motor came with the bigger ct20 and was MAP.
Unfortunatly no chance of 500+ horsepower under $30,000 of work.
You would need a stroker 2.2L kit to put it to that, and a big turbo that would not be practical for the road.
The GT4 205 in 1994 had 400BHP in rally spec.
another 100+ horsepower is plain psyco.
Honestly for 500HP it would need to be a 205 (gen3) motor worked off its tits.
hks cams, pistons, pullys, fly, jun stroker kit, turbos, nitrous, ECU, EVERYTHING!!!
How much did you pay?
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 3sgte
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Wed, 13 April 2005 10:04
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checkin for map sensor i dont think would be an option i highly doubt a standard ecu is powerin 500hp
you gotta be able to check with toyota or something with an engine number
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 3sgte
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Wed, 13 April 2005 22:05
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No chance??? Don't you just love those throw away comments. A stock internals Gen III will do 400hp happily (mine did) and with a very short life would pull 500hp. All 500hp requires is forgies and the necessary bolts on that any other 500hp engine would require. I have a number of mates and know of quite a few 3SGTEs with 500hp at the fly and over....some pushing 500+hp at the wheels. Takes a well thought out build for sure bit nothing any competent engine shop couldn't produce and for far far less than 30K
If you want no chance then it's the CT26 pulling that hp. You might get 350hp flywheel from a CT26/CT20B combo if you know what you're doing but even a heavily modded CT26 just can't flow those numbers thru the turbnine housing no matter what you do to it.
What GEN engine isn't the only thing i'd be worried about if i were you..you need to find out a whole lot else about what you have bought as what i've heard so far dosen't sound right at all
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On Probation
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 01:16
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500 hp is possible on GENIII
not Gen II
The GEN II would need the GENIII head for 500HP.
+ ALOT MORE supporting mods.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 01:24
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err no, at those HP levels the Gen II head actually flows better than the Gen III. The Gen III head has smaller ports as Toyota ditch the TVIS system and needed to maintain low to mid rpm air flow speed for efficient cyl filling. Once you start running big flow numbers the Gen III head is a bit restrictive when compared to the Gen II head...still would do the job easily though.
Depending on cams the shim over bucket in the Gen II could be problem but for 500hp huge cams aren't required, 272's would do the job nicely and still keep the thing fairly streetable and you can run these shim over bucket no probs.
All the GT4's i know running 500+ hp are Gen II, the MR2T's are a mix of Gen II and IIIs.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 02:35
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My gen 2 3sgte has been built with around this sort of power in mind .. Mind you though its at early stages + will require cams better fuelling + a decent turbo to obtain over 400 HP ..
Would be curious to see how much this motor went for as i know mine wasnt all that expensive ( considering the componentry that went into it ) to rebuild fromm scratch including a tonne of modifications to handle power ..
and wholley agree on the ct26 here - thats the biggest holdback for mine atm .. you need better than that
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Location:
Syd
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 03:09
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umm,did the 3gen ever come out in a mr2... i think it was a gen 2 but could be wrong
coz in hioctane video number 2 or 3 there is a supra from japan doing high speed tests in n.z with a mr2 3sgte engine in it that produces 700 hp. d engine looks so small in d engine bay its unbelivable.
d car done 290kmph from memory, but in japan it done 340kmph
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 03:30
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OK a couple of peices of advice:
Ralfross
Don't take everything you read in magazines as being the truth. I assume your "knowledge" here is based on the Zoom 3SGTE tuner article that says if you're going for big power you need to use the Gen3 Head. Practically all of the really big power 3S's I know of are Gen 2 engines, this is however a matter of convenience rather than anything else just because the car already had a Gen2.
Opasan
Use english in your posts.
From 10/93 onwards in Japan the SW20 came with the Gen3.
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Location:
Syd
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 03:50
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Joshstix
im workin on the english, ill get there one day...
and it might have been a third generation 3sgte in it...
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On Probation
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 12:10
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I dont want to sound like a smart arse but my experience all comes from me. I barely read magazines to tell the truth i spend most of my time on www.gt4oc.com
If i am wrong about the Gen II vs Gen III head then i guess i am wrong its just not what i have expeienced.
My 3sgte was built with massive hp in mind too. I built one engine myself and one engine i got built with all forged internals. that motor cost me 15,000 including the turbo. 
For my HP aim the 205 head would be beter. 
There are things i know that maybe other people do not.
For example it is true that the stock 185 fuel system does not handle more than 12psi of boost/fuel delivery very well, although it can, it is not recomended at all. Whislt the st205 head with its fuel rail is capable of 24-28psi. Its a shame the 205 fuel rail does not fit onto the 185.
All these little things are so important to know when tuning cars. They are often overlooked.
I stand to be corected about the 205 head not being as good for high hp.
Also does anyone have dyno sheets to proove 500+ hp celicas without a 2.2 stroker?
Thanks.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 3sgte
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Thu, 14 April 2005 22:31
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Yup the 185 rail has approx half the cross sectional area of the 205 rail. The MR2T guys bore it out....going dual feed rail is another common fix. An interesting option is to go with the 3SFE (or is it 5SFE, can't recall off the top of my head) rail as it is large bore and top feed and fits with minimal mods. Gives you access to a heap of injectors sizes.
If you have a burning desire to see what others have achieved drop me an email and i can probably dig up a dyno sheet or 2
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Location:
Parramatta
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 15 April 2005 01:33
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i read the part about 551 hp and has a a CT 26... i cant not comment....
thats is a load of shit, who ever told you that is on some searious drugs, and i would have reasearched this.
i have a GT35r wich is prolly tripple the size of a high flow ct26 turbine wheel. and i have 271rwkw that dont equate to 551 not even in the 500's at wheels anyways.
with that power i have i may just get a high 10 but i doubt that with a CT26 you would even break a mid 11. Sorry to be blunt.
| Quote: |
500 hp is possible on GENIII
not Gen II
The GEN II would need the GENIII head for 500HP.
+ ALOT MORE supporting mods.
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aslo this is absolute crap every gen of the 3s can make as much power as the other, i agree there is alot more bolt on for a gen3 which makes it seem like there is more power. but when you are talking 500 + then anything goes. I am extreamly sure that i can make this power if not more with a gen2 head which is what my motor is! i make in the 400's and i know the car can be tuned for more power.
the only real noteable differance between the motors were the cams duration and the inlet / throttle body.
as joshsitx said dont belive everything you read in a mag. most of it is crap.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 15 April 2005 03:52
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i think i said along way up this thread that if your making 500+ hp then the gen of the engine doesnt/shouldnt matter much as all the main differences between the gen 2 and gen 3 would have been changed with aftermaket items anyway ie cams injectors turbo ECU pistons fueling system, pump rail ect ect
a ct26 will never flow enuff for big HP, you would have to go aftermaket exhaust manifold and a nice big garett ball bearing jump rated for 500+ HP. perhaps the turbo the guy had on this 3s when it was making 500+ was sold and hes plunked the ct26 back on it?
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3sgte
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Fri, 15 April 2005 12:53
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| 3sgte wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 17:16 |
because it has just been rebuilt with all the top gear. On the engine dyno it pulled 556hp at the fly on 20 psi i can run up to 25psi and 32psi on gas. I was told i will pull 10s in a sw20 mr2 thats why and i only thought what gen was the engine today. I just want to know whats different to all the other gens. the engine has all internals done and a hi flow ct26 hpc coated. Just want to know what was differnt when the engines are stock. My other 3sgte which i belive is a 185 has a differnt inlet manifold to this engine. Can u change the manifolds ova if the 205 is better ???
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I can tell you the gains from the 205 head are unbelievable. I bolted one of these on my 993cc charade and netted me an extra 180hp at the fly. Its just under that 500 mark now but hope to crack it once I use av gas. I was using a CT26 but decided to ditch this for the proven CT9 with a 40 deg clip on the rear wheel. Like your motor mine is also built with all the top gear. Dont worry about these non believers as they are either uneducated or plain jealous. If they only knew the improvements HPC have on a CT26. I had my whole car painted in a High Performance Coat recently. Cant wait to get it back on the dyno.
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Location:
Vancouver
Registered:
June 2004
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