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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 07:25
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Everyone Knows I love a good stir and always point out how good the 2TG is. But just for a change heres some facts as publicised by TOYOTA. These are STOCK FACTORY Specs
http://toymods.org.au/users/rod/enginecomp.xls
And just to save you opening it here my favorite bit.
2TG - 124HP @ 6400 RPM, 113 ft-lb @ 5200 RPM
4AGE (100KW) - 128HP @ 6600 RPM, 110 ft-lb @ 5200 RPM
Check out that torque boys and girls. 
We all know thats the important bit !
Enjoy.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 07:29
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BTW,
If anyone has the details for the 20Valve 4AGE or the 4AGZE on Toyota published material. (Must be written by Toyota) then I would love to see it.
And yes we all know there are many different varients of every Toyota engines. This is about as accurate as it gets !
Thanks.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 07:33
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Are you trying to start a fight or something? Next you are going to tell me that Sprinters are girly shopping trollies!
He He
Malkom
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 07:59
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Woot! Go the 2TG 
Also to consider is weight of the engine, and the power curve/dyno of the engine.
Ie: 4AGE will still be faster in drag because stock you can change gear about 1000rpm higher up. This probably overweighs the torque advantage of the 2TG. Not to mention 16v vs 8v, which should give better low down torque.
But can you bore a 4AGE out to 2000cc?
I hear of 8AGE kits for stupid amounts of money to get only high 1700ccs..... bah to that i say!
That said, i drive a 2TGEU powered KE35!...... and no 4AGE has the same rumble.... especially when the mikunis were on it! 
Karl
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Location:
The Rainy City
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 08:09
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That point doesnt need to even be mentioned Malkom, its a given Go the Celi's!!!!
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Location:
up yours!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 08:17
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dude!
WHAT EVER!
when you get back on the road, we will give the whole A verse T war a new meaning!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
NE Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 08:28
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i'm not quite sure what to say, or where to begin, but i wanna be in on this... really Rod, what are you trying to do???
each engine has thire good and bad points... some of us here are interested in modifying engines, right??? so is not the better engine the one with the bigger wallet funding it???
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Toymods Board Member
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
NE Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Toymods Board Member
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 08:43
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Dorikin..
I think what Rod is trying to achieve here is to prove to the 4AGE people that even though the 2TG engine is nearly 13 years older than the 4AGE engine .. In some ways it is a superior engine.. Mainly directed to the Sprinter girls......I could be wrong ..
But it looks like it could be a shit stir... A fun one at that..
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Location:
up yours!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 08:56
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I know what is wrong with Rod!
Hes cut after having such a shit example of the 4A engine!
LOL
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 11:15
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Rod, The link for Toyota South Africa, where these figures came from is now dead, probably because the model has now been changed.
Corolla Rsi, 4AGE 20V, 6-speed manual,
115Kw@7800rpm, 157Nm@5600rpm.
All this from a 1587cc engine.
Converted:
154Hp , 116 ft-lb
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But can you bore a 4AGE out to 2000cc?
I hear of 8AGE kits for stupid amounts of money to get only high 1700ccs
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Convert a 7A and you already have 1800cc, and costs half the price of the 5AGE kit... How many people know it's a forged Crank? I didn't til the other day.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 15:10
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Johnny,
Thanks for the 20V info. In order to keep it as a valid reference tho I really want to find a documented reference from Toyota. That way anyone can check the figures over to satisfy there validity. 
Karl,
Mate actually the 2TG internals are good for 8000rpm stock ! Mind you the valve springs in a 2TGEU are apparently suspect at that sort of RPM. And I wouldn't recommend a Stock 2TG seeing anything like 8000RPM its well past the peak HP. Your Rev point is mute I'm afraid both engines reach Peak power at almost the same RPM !
The weight is definatly an Issue the 2TG is one fat old bitch by comparison to the 4AGE. Would love to know by exactly how much tho.
And as for Modified potential of the 2 thats a thread of its own ! Big argument for both depending on what you want to acheive.
Dorikin (Todd),
Actually mate for once I wasn't looking for a shit stir. I figure I've stired that much shit on the topic I actually wanted to see how close they were ! There is that much urban myth getting around about both engines I wanted to clear up the picture. I gotta say tho I was happy with the results. I Would love to see the 4AGZE Stats !
And yes mate the bigger wallet generally wins. Mind you both engines have there limit. Personally I prefer the chase of good usuable power as opposed to the highest Dyno output.
At the end of the day tho one thing is for sure.... Is great being part of the friendly challenges we have amungst us. Fact is its a pretty even field.
Oh and Yogi.......Be careful what you wish for
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 20:14
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I would have thought the 2TG springs would be worse then the 2TGEU items as the EFI motor has double valve springs standard.
I was talking factory rev limit too.
Karl
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Thu, 30 May 2002 21:52
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Karl,
With Both engines reaching Peak HP at almost the same Revs the Factory Redline isn't much of a benefit. Every RPM over peak power is producing less power therefore it is a negative thing to push the car past that point.
I could be wrong here but my understandiing is it actually peak torque thats important in Drag Racing. You need to Shift in accordance with maintaining the highest acceleration force (torque) that being the case the RPM point is not close...ITs Identical.
I am trying to get my hands on Factory Dyno Graphs for the engines. I have some but it is proving quite difficult. Just getting the engine stats was hard enough.
A special thanks to Mitch Templar for surplying the 4A Series data (I mean like I have that lying around ! )
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 00:56
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The 2T-G is certainly a far better gadget to hold a boat in position.
Seriously though, the only two advantages that the 2T-G have over the 4AG is that it has a bigger bore/small stroke and you can bore the block out a lot more.
In every other way the 4AGE is a much better engine, either stock and even more so modified.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 03:54
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Bill,
Mate I wouldn't be anything like that cocky unless you were looking to be disapointed !
The 2TG has more in it favour than that and lets face it the 4AGE is not exactly a performance based engine from the factory now is it ! I mean Shim OVER bucket ... How Shopping trolley can you get ! Even pushrods cater for more performance !
This thread is not intended to start a mines better than yours type discussion. However if you want to really compare I'm happy to. As long as everyone remebers they are both good engines and does not take it personally.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 04:25
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LMAO, dont argue with Rod he is very thorough and has a wealth of information on the subject! Why are we bothering with this topic though? The real one to worry about is 4AGZE/GTE vs 3TGTEU!!! and both Rod and i know who comes out shining here! 
Jamie
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 04:39
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"lets face it the 4AGE is not exactly a performance based engine from the factory now is it"
Take a look at the specs of a Cosworth BDA 1600cc and see the similarities.
Same bore/stroke
Same valve sizes
Same port sizes & shapes on the small port head.
True enough the stock inlet manifold on the 16v is not very good, but something like a 20v inlet manifold isn;t hard to fit. I've done it.
If you want to talk facts, then here's a couple. Two engines like the 2T-G and 4AGE, the four valve engine wins every time because of the much better breathing they inherantly have. Look at a Formula Atlantic engine, they're up around 240hp - how many 1600cc 2T-G's have you seen with anything like that power?
The shim over bucket set-up isn't the best either, but it's enough to run some fairly large cams, eg, I ran 288° and 0.290" lift no probs at all. I think I ran it up to 9,000rpm a couple of times too. Stock bottom end and stock valve gear on that engine!
"Even pushrods cater for more performance"
Not even with the greatest stretch of the imagination is that possible!
"This thread is not intended to start a mines better than yours type discussion"
How else would you compare two different engines??
I started fiddling with 2T-G's in 1984 - 18 years ago - and after working with the 4AGE I wouldn't even consider looking at the old two valve engine again.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 06:10
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Jamie,
Bill is a walking encyclopedia of 4AGE info so I would have to say I am probably up against more than more match. I'm not Bad on the old 2TG but I am no Guru. And yes I would love to see the 4AGTE v's 3TGTE debate but how about we see what the Dyno day brings. I won't be ready in time but hopefully there will be others to aid the discussion.
Bill,
Shim over verses Shim under is no contest, Shim Under is miles ahead and I'm sure you won't dispute that at all.
As for Pushrod verses Shim over its a little off topic but No Shim Over setup can handle cams and RPM like a good set of Pushrods. Since you ventured towards formula atlantic I'll bring up two points. Formulla Atlantic run a Shim Over set up !! The shim under can't cut it. However a Full drag spec 2T Turbo can happily turn out over 600Hp on Pushrods. !! Do I ned to continue. And lets keep to the comparison at hand.
Lets face it Shim under really does suck ! Anything like big lift cams and the shims get dislodged and thats a bad thing in anyones language. What is classed as a high performance upgrade for the 4AGE is stock on a 2TG !
As for the Cosworth comparison your point is ???
The 2TG was only Toyota's second Twin cam Venture (the 3M in the 2000 GT being there first) The race versions of the 2TG actually ended up with 16 valves and are the true predessesors to the 4AGE but yes there was clearly an influence from the cosworth design.
2 Valves Verses 4... Id be kidding myself to say 2 valves is really superior from a technical veiwpoint however take a good long look at the figures produced from both engines. A formula Atlantic cranks out 240HP A good race/rally 2TG cranks out 200HP but with greater torque ! I know what i would rather be driving. The torque of course comes from its ability to acheive a Higher capacity thru stroking and boreing. A 1900+ CC 2TG is not uncommon. A 200HP 2TG is also not the N/A limit but I will refrain from statements I cannot yet support.
RPM Limits - Bill you say a "Stock" 4AGE bottom end will handle 9000rpm. Was that with truely stock rods or were they shot peened and linished ?
A set of Stock 2TGEU rods will support in excess of 500HP and have no problems with 9000rpm once they are properly shotpeened and linished. Whilst Carillo rods are common place in a Race 4AGE they are rarely required in a T series build ! And before anyone else brings it up... Its RPM that kills Rods not HP so the larger HP figure from a Race 4AGE is not applicable to that component.
Bill In saying I didn't want a mines better than yours discussion I was stressing I want a valuable technical discussion Statements on personal preference are not what I want. There is that much misinformation about both engines that it would be nice to see a true technical comparison. Statements like your initial post do noone any favours least of all the lesser informed. In full race spec I have no doubt the 4AGE produces a higher output but fact is few of us hear want a full race engine we want street level performance. Besdies which I would bet that a Race 4AGE far outweights the cost of a Race 2TG. there shear fact of it having double the head parts and its needing a shim under setup would Guarantee that !
Thanks,
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 06:18
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Here we go again!
OK here's my two cents worth.
Sure formula atlantic engines knock out big numbers, cool, it lets us know what the extreme upper limits of the engine are, given a huuuge budget (for development not the cost of the engine itself), limited performance envelope etc. But that doesn't mean that other engines couldn't acheive similar results given the same circumstances. If you made a VW engine the basis for a LARGE BUDGET open wheel formula (formula Vee is not large budget) it would probably get some amazing numbers also. In fact look at what Some VW engines are getting, with what is inherently a shit design. So I don't think Formula Atlantic is a fair comparison.
I can see Rod's point, alot of the stuff on 4AGE's is a marketing ploy, not to say it isn't good, just not automatically better. Let's face it, if you advertised a new performance car with a carburettored, pushrod, eight valve, cast iron engine, who would buy it? Not me! Even if it did work really good. You see the same thing with the Nissan CA to SR engines. They lost the shim under bucket design to rocker arms, they went belt to chain, all the stuff that Joe public doesn't care about. But they kept the cool 16valve thing (even if it only has eight cams).
So I reckon the best comparison is on the street (or of it with street rego'd cars) and in that comparison the 2TG does a great job.
Also remember the 4TGTE. How much did that have compared to a turboed 4A? Most of the factory development on the "T" motors was for turbo, which is the opposite of the "A" motors.
But I had a 2TG, and now I'm building a car for a 4A, so I'm hoping they are better!
ps. I don't really care, it's just an interesting argument.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 08:29
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Look this argument could go around in circles..
Ive been reading and havnt said anything..
All i have to say is..
Ill take the Formula atlantic 4age any day over the tuned 2tg.
AND.
Considering the 2tg puts out 3ft-lb more torque standard.. At the end of the day.. Man that is fuk all..
In a racing application. High end power is what cuts it..
On the street torque matters more..
either way..
Bring your 2tg to a line with my 4agze and we will see about torque..
When i drop my baby at 4500rpm and that lsd locks up youll be tasting that sweet smell of burning falken rubber and Gze fumes...
are you telling me you would rather your 2tg in your celica than a 240hp formula atlantic engine? CMON!!!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 08:34
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Im not however taking any light from the 2tg.. Its a good motor..
20 years ago
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 11:00
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now you are being silly first it was 2tg vs 4age
but your argument is 4agze vs 2tg
of couse the supercharged version will win it has more torque
if you had any sense at all you would be talking about a 4agze vs a 2tgze
like tim frosts celica, i would like to see you have beaten that
by the time you take your foot off the clutch to take off from the starting line he would be in front (in a world of perfect times, free of driver error) and all you would see is the sweet ass of a 2tgze powered ta22 about to hang a steamer on the face of your girly mulepower driven rolla 
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 11:11
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Sorry  ,
Tryhttp://www.toyota.co.za and look up the corolla RXi for the engine info.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Fri, 31 May 2002 23:10
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Johny,
Mate thanks heaps for that ! That will do just fine.
I'll try and get that info added in on monday.
Corvid,
Mate I think just comparing Quarter mile times would be enough to varify that a 4AGZE will chomp all over a 2TG. Mind you...You prolly want to stay clear of any 3TGTE's that may be Lurking around. But hey that way of the track for now.
Your point about 3ft-lp the difference....Thats exactly my point !! Not much in it is there
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 02:23
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Hmm - these horsepower figures were quoting ( ie 240 hp for the formula versions of 4ag's and so on - is that Flywheel horsepower or rear wheel horsepower .. Just curious on this to clarify some confuzzlment in my skull
On a note - just as total fuel to the fire i have a 2t-B of all things thats good for 185 HP - single cam, eight valves + looks stock bar for a weber hanging off the side - and no turbo's and superchargers. Nice top have when it comes to roadworthies and so on ..
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Location:
melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 07:47
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theoretically the 4ag will have more power potential than a 2tg. Its all in the amount of air that can flow into the combustion chamber. From my research a 16valve 2.0L 4cyl engine like those in the super tourers can make about 280 - 320 hp. A fully modified 2.0 SOHC 8v engine like an escort or datsun L20 can make 190 - 220 hp max. The 4ag head will flow much more than a 2t head and so therefore have a higher power limit.
practically though for street cars you have to consider your performance per dollar ratio. these points are to consider :
- cost of stock engine
- availability of good engines (4ag wins here)
- cost of mods
- performance parts available
finally theres the weight issue of the engines, I know the 4ag is more compact and lighter than the 2tg but by how much?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
NE Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 08:06
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No Message Body
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 09:10
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I'm not going to do the pages and pages of diatribe that I used to do, I'll try to keep it short.
For road use, the shim-over bucket is fine. The reason is that with a 4AG you don't need to run as much cam as you do on the 2TG to make the same power. The reason for that is the extra breathing of the four valves that the 4AG has.
Some numbers. The area of the 2TG valve at 10mm lift is 15.07²cm, (48mm diameter inlet valve) the area of the 4AG is 19.16²cm at the same lift. I'm not sure what the stock lift is on the 2TG (been a few years) but at the stock 4AG lift of 7.5mm (the area is now 14.37mm) the 2TG would need to lift the inlet valve 9.5mm and I don't think they've got anything like that lift stock. You can also run the 32mm (or even 33.5mm) diameter inlets in the 4AG's, so the flow can be proportionally more. Putting bigger valves in a 2TG is hard to do, as you run into clearance problems with the valves on overlap. The 4AG with its smaller cams & valves & included valve angle doesn't have anywhere near as much problem.
Speaking of this in the combustion chamber, the 2TG is pretty ugly indeed. The 4AG has a pretty good chamber, and to get good compression you don't need a big dome on the piston like the 2TG does. The squish areas on the 4AG are also much better.
Yes, I used to muck around with the 2TG's, with the 88220, 88222, and 8261 heads so I know a little about them.
The shim-over buckets will run a 0.360" (9.1mm) lift cam, I've done it for a while but it's not a good idea long-term. I'd say more like 0.330" would be much safer.
The shim-unders will take a 0.380" lift no probs - that's what I run right now - though I've seen 0.440" lift used. (too much IMHO)
Anyway, this is the main part of the reason why you don't need such a big cam in a 4AG to make them go well, they don't need it.
I won't repeat it all here, but a very good comparison is made on my 'Two valve Vs four valve' page, where I talk about the old 1300cc 3K race engine Vs the 1300cc Suzuki twin cam. The 3K ended up being pretty much a cranky full race engine that made less power than the Suzuki. The Suzuki uses ~275° 0.355" cam, which are really just big road cams. The 3K used 12.8:1 compression (we had to cheat and use 20% toluene in the fuel to stop it pinging) while the Suzuki runs regular 98 unleaded with 10.25:1, as per the rules. The 3K had valve gear trouble past about 8800rpm, whereas the Suzuki is rev-limited by the rules to the stock 8000rpm.
That's the difference that a decent multi-valve engine can make over a well-worked two valve.
If you're going to compare stock engines then the power figures are there to see, as added above for the 2TG & 4AG and they speak for themselves.
If you're going to talk modded engines, let's make it street ones. Mine's a street engine and it makes a genuine 140ft-lbs odd and 190hp odd. I also get a genuine 42mpg and it drives much like a normal car. I'd like to see a 1600cc 2TG do all that. My next 4AG will have more like 230hp in street trim, and it'll also drive like a normal car. How much would you have to spend on a 2TG to get that amount of power, and how driveable will it be?
If you doubt about the power of my car, then just ask Shano2 and/or MR2-V, Haydn, as they're both been for a ride in the car.
I mention 1600cc again - like I did earlier - to be able to compare apples with apples. IF you're going to talk 1900cc odd, then that's not a reasonable comparison, and so by those 'rules' I'll use a 3SGE which is much closer to 1950cc that the 2TG can be taken out to. The best 3SGE I know of is in the British Touring Car series, and they make up around 310 - 320hp at reasonable revs (8500) and I'd guess about 185ft-lbs. Again there's no way a big bore/stroke 2TG is going to make anything like that. Rod mentioned 200hp odd, and that's more like it.
Rod also wrote, "Formulla Atlantic run a Shim Over set up". No they don't, they all use shim-under. I assume that this was a mistake.
"Lets face it Shim under really does suck"
As was that.
"As for the Cosworth comparison your point is ???"
The point is that it's a copy of a well-proven and highly successful competition engine. The BDA is known to work very well indeed, and so a good copy of it can only be a good thing. FWIW, the head on the small port 4AG has much the same porting as the BDA, but the design of the head on the 4AG is much neater indeed.
"RPM Limits - Bill you say a "Stock" 4AGE bottom end will handle 9000rpm. Was that with truely stock rods or were they shot peened and linished ?"
I assume that they're stock rods, as when I got the engine in 1990 I never touched the bottom end, never even took off the sump. I would not recommend using more than 8500rpm much though.
"Statements on personal preference are not what I want."
You didn't get one.
"Statements like your initial post do noone any favours least of all the lesser informed."
I stand behind what I say. If given the choice, there is absolutely no reason why you'd use a 2TG over a 4AG. If you want something with more capacity, then there's always a 7AG and then a 3SGE, both of which will obviously make more power than the equivelant T engine.
The only advantage that a 2TG has is that it can be bored quite a lot and it has a shorter stroke, that's it in practical terms.
Classique71 - That 240hp is straight from a guy that builds them, Jamie Aislabie in Rotorua. He said that the best he ever got was 242hp, and that's at the flywheel.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 09:58
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My stock 2TG - 88222 has standard cams, and lift is more like 10-11mm. Don't have the exact figure here, but it is 10mm or more. I agree that a 2 litre 2TG needs to be campared with a 3S-GE.
More and more, my engine of choice is whatever twincam engine was ment to be in that shape of car. And a old engine will be suitable in a old car.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 11:56
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At all the Dyno days - the 4AGE - boys always come close but never seem to be able to topple my car. You never know maybe this Dyno Day (details can be found in the events section)the 4AGE's might win out.
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This could change  and it's neither a 4AGE or a 2TG.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 11:58
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2TG Build Cost
Bill this is off the top of my head so I may wellbe a tad out here or there but it will be quite close. Lets assume the Engine itself is already owned. However a 2TG can rang in price from $200 to almost $1000. I think $600 - $800 would be a fair range.
Head.
To get big power from a 2TG a mild port and polish is required as is a bigger set of cams and valve springs to match. Stock valves are more than up to the task.
An expensive Port and polish including rebuilding the head with new springs will set you back maybe $800 - $1000
A good set of cams for this purpose will be $700
Thats it for the Head !
Bottom end.
A 3T Bottom end from a T-18 can be picked up for $50 - $150
A set of Forged Pistons and rings will slug you $1200
Block cleaning and Machining maybe $150
New Rings and Gaskets set at most $200 (thats a Guess)
New Timing Chain guides and Tensioners $800
Balancing $300 (Also a Guess)
I am leaving out labour as the home mechanic can build this however a figure of $1000 would not be unreasonable.
Thats $4200 (Not Including labour) for a good 2TG rebuild. And the best thing with forged pistons is you can get them to any overbore and Compression ratio for the same price ! The above package with the right cam profiles and piston specs will get you a streetable 180 HP at the Flywheel !
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 18:53
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I note the weight of the 2TGEU is stated at 146kg, and I remember reading somewhere that a 4AGE and T50 together weight about 150kg... anyone know what a 4AGE weights without the gearbox (or how much a T50 weighs)? I know when I bought my 4AGE, my friend and I picked it up fairly easily, and that was with all ancillaries (power steering, aircon, etc..).
Also, did anyone else notice that, according to the chart, the "100kW" 4AGE only puts out 95kW (128 x 0.746)?
[Updated on: Sat, 01 June 2002 18:58]
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sat, 01 June 2002 21:59
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HEHEHE Rod youre just a sh*t stirrer!
ok apples with apples, IMHO no worked 2T/3T will ever trounce a worked 4AG
lets work with your budget of $4200
This is what I could do with that sort of money to the GE and using a 3 rib block as a base althought it would be a better start using the 7 rib obviously
first lets take away $800 for the engine so that leaves $3400
2.5mm oversize pistons, rings and boring $400
lightened flywheel $300
32mm inlet valves with seats about $250, leave the exhaust as stock as with a set of extractors they should be fine for street
extractors $250
port match, mild polish, clean up squelch area,deck the head 20,000" Ive got no idea on cost as I usually do it at home but lets say about $500
stock computer tolerance bigger cams $600
balancing of flywheel pistons etc $200
ok thats a mere $2500 so far which leaves me with $900
I could pick up a second hand aftermarket computer for that and go to as big a cam as the shims allow (no diffence to the price of the cams as theyre from billet from the start) and I could easily clean up the engine youve described. 
The thing we have to remeber about Tinas engine is how much youve worked it compared to the competition youve faced, Tinas engine has a lot of tweaks and as far as I know most of the 4AGE's that have lined up against it have been pretty much stock standard in comparison.
If I was going to go all out I would redo all the valves and throw in shim under buckets and run 9.5mm lift cams, use a 7 rib block, deck the head 25000" heavily polish the inlet, run a slightly bigger T/B and injectors or just use 20V T/B's with the aftermarket computer, knife edge the crank and blueprint the block.
most of the modifications I could do for a lot less than what Ive quoted by doing them at home, I have no idea what sort of horsepower Id get by doing these Mods but I know itd be enough to clean up the 2T/3T, and if you use Bills information it would be pretty close to the 190-200Hp mark http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm#180hp
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Sun, 02 June 2002 01:28
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Hehehe.. Celicamad.. I was only gee'ing up the conversation with the GZE!..
Ohh and by the way "Mate" I dont drive a shopping trolley corolla.. I drive a AW11 Mr2 with LSD.. So if you think this 2TGZ is going to chop the shit out of me of the lights..
Hmmmm.. Bring it on.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Tina Tweaks !
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Sun, 02 June 2002 13:43
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Micheal,
Tina's 2TG is not as tweaked as you may thing but your right the competition has been pretty average ! Of course every little tweak counts.
Teenz engine was a 2TGEU so was a low compression set up. The rebuild for the most part brought it up to 2TG spec.
Bottom end received 3T crank and standard 1mm oversize cast pistons at 9.8:1 Compression. (Stock 2TG compression)
Head received a dubure and Mild polish plus a Mild set of cams. IF you did the work yourself and started with a Good 2TG (Not a Dead one like Tinas) the build cost would be quite small.
Not including replacing damaged items Parts for Tinas were:
Crank $80
Pistons & Rings $300
Cams $150
Shims $80
Gasket Set & Bearings $300
Balanceing $300
So around $1200 would get you there assuming your original 2TG was in good shape.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
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Mon, 03 June 2002 11:37
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Here's some more facts I found:
4AGE= 270lb (including oil and water but no radiator)
4AC = 240lb (as above)
2TG = 320lb (as above)
It is a bit unfair that the T motor has a cheaper capacity advantage, but it is something that comes into consideration if you're looking for cheap performance. Also depends on the car. If I was doing up a TA22 I'd go for a T motor no doubt, But if it was an AW11 the T motor would be about as useful as... um something really useless...
ps. the above facts are from Road & Track on Toyota sports and GT cars.
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Re: 2TG verses 4AGE Facts !
