| Author | Topic |
|---|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
 Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 04:24
|
 |
Ok I have found someone that is willing to make me a fuel tank for a half decent price. The question was asked if I wanted a internal surge tank!
So I want peoples opinions on what is better and for what reasons!
So let me hear(read?) them 
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 04:34
|
|
Depends if you like to try and 'sik maaaate dorift' your car with an empty tank  Internal is good because it doesn't waste space, you can stick a pump in there and (hopefully) keep it quiet, and you don't need to have a fuel filled can somewhere it really shouldn't be (like inside the car).
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 04:58
|
|
Ever seen a factory EFI car with an external surge tank? Me either. They all come with internal swirl pots, and that seems to work fine. Remember if you have an external surge tank you need two fuel pumps, while an OEM-style setup only requires one.
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 07:21
|
|
Hi Cool1,
This is a little off topic but I was wondering about where and for how much you were going to get this fuel tank made? Is it going to be scratch built, or a modified factory one.
Just for my own future referencem, as I will need to do something like this when my motor leaves the stand headed for the engine bay.
Cheers
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 09:03
|
|
Youngy, I'm looking at getting the tank made from scratch at http://www.mwmd.com.au/
I didn't really get a price but I was just told that it wouldn't cost to much more than $500 made exactly how I want!
Does anyone have any good web sites that explain how the internal swirl pots work! How they fill up etc etc etc?
Thanks.
|
|
|
Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 12:00
|
|
|
Thanks Cool1, I'll have to give them an email.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 12:12
|
|
|
No worries mate.
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 13:53
|
|
surge tank for more than $500??? That's huge for a metal box! 
http://www.japanesemotorsport.com.au/partsinstock7 .htm
do you trust these places? They're only asking $195, it's second hand, but so is your fuel tank.. 
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 22:15
|
|
| gt20v wrote on Wed, 13 November 2002 23:53 |
surge tank for more than $500??? That's huge for a metal box!
|
Ya freakin bunghole!! $500 is for the whole fuel tank internal surge tank 
I have bought stuff from them before and they are very good! $195 is a reasonable price!
|
|
|
Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Wed, 13 November 2002 23:39
|
|
|
your best bet would be to cut open a latemodel commie/magna/falcon tank and take the internal swirl pots from these.. that said i think they are all made of plastic these days so u could at least copy the design. Its really simple the way it works.. think of it as a round walled area in the tank.. no biggr then 20 cm, there is holes in the walls a few cm off the floor of the tank, the fuel pick up is taken from inside the swirl pot.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 00:01
|
|
So a surge tank must be differnet to a swirl pot?
So the swirl post is just like a cup with holes in the side at the bottem of the tank? But what stops the fuel running out of this when cornering?
|
|
|
Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 00:06
|
|
Surge Tank and Swirl Ports both do the exact same job, just in different spots, Ones external and the others intrnal... i know what i rather, rather have the internal set up, one pump, less mess, less hose, less chance of something going wrong
Yes all the internal swirl pot does is keep fuel in the pot under cornering, the pump picks it up from the pot.
Trust me they work, factory cars spend thousands on R&D to make sure u dont get lean out on hard cornering with 1/4 tank of fuel.
|
|
|
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 00:57
|
|
Ok I spoke thanks for that!
I have spoken to Matt Waterman and he told me how they setup the internal surge tank. Basicly its just a round tube that is fitted between the top and bottem of the tank. It has solid pipes from the surge tank to the side of the main tank. And it still uses a lift pump to fill it! Basicly its just a external surge tank fitted inside the main tank!!
Can anyone see a problem with this?
|
|
|
Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 01:32
|
|
yeah u still need two pumps.
i cant see why thy just dont do a simple swirl pot with the pump pick up from the pot
this is the most simple and effective method!
|
|
|
Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 02:22
|
|
Yeah I agree with Mr RX7, standard factory style setups are best. You only need one pump then which is much cheaper. Make sure your return line also feeds back into the swirl pot as this will increase the number of donuts you can do....
I had a look in the tank of my Carina when I stripped it, basically has a small box in it with small holes part way up the sides. The pickup and return both sit in the bottom of this box.
This way the return line keeps the swirlpot topped up and the small holes also allow it to fill up while restricting the speed the fuel can flow out at.
Callum
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 02:52
|
|
So the only issue is with the second pump??
Ok what about a small pot type arrangment on the underside of the tank? And have the fuel pickup from here?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 03:25
|
|
|
Whats a good size fuel tank for my TA22 fitted with a 3S-GTE?
|
|
|
Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 08:30
|
|
No problem I can see. There is a 3T-GTEU KE30 wagon around here with this type of setup. Basically they got a 2 inch length of 3 inch diameter exhaust tube, welded a plate on the bottom, fittings off the side (around 1 inch up from the bottom to avoid any dirt etc). This was welded to the bottom of the tank after drilling a whole lot of small holes in a circle where the pipe was to be welded. These holes allow the swirl pot to fill while slowing any fuel flowing out. With the return line feeding in as well fuel starvation would be pretty rare. If you were really worried just go to 4 inch diameter or longer pipe to give some more volume.
Callum
PS - as for tank volume you need to work out what you want from the car. Are you going interstate or just lapping on a Friday night? Estimate your fuel consumption and work out the range you want between fills.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 09:36
|
|
|
With this type of setup would you still need to use a lift pump to get fuel from the pot and up to the high pressure pump?
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Thu, 14 November 2002 13:33
|
|
|
only different I could think of, between the swirl pot and the surge tank is, a surge tank should not have starvation problem until almost the last drop of fuel, where as swirl pot will start to have problem before then, but then, the advantage with swirl pot is, you'll know you're starting to really run out of fuel as soon as you see the engine misfire, but that could also be the engine's last misfire depending on what rpm you're at..
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Sun, 24 November 2002 08:38
|
|
|
So if I have a pot fitted to the bottem of the tank will I still need a lift pump to get fuel to the high pressure pump?
|
|
|
Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Mon, 25 November 2002 02:24
|
|
Depends on the type of pump. I will be using a pump from a MA61 which from the factory is quite happy to suck fuel rather than needing it gravity (or force) fed.
Callum
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Mon, 25 November 2002 02:57
|
|
Ahh ok!
So if I was to use a normal high pressure external pump I would need a lift pump?
|
|
|
Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Mon, 25 November 2002 06:33
|
|
You will need to check the specifics of the pump you have, what sort of horsepower are you aiming for? I'm not sure how easy they are to find but if the MA61 pump can support a 7M-GTE it should cope with a worked 3S-GTE and may simplify your fuel system. Main reason I am looking for one is my IRS is from a TA63 which is the same as the MA61 and has the pump mounts on the diff cradle so it will bolt straight in.
Callum
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Surge tank. Internal or external?
|
Mon, 25 November 2002 07:02
|
|
|
At first I wont be doing anything to the engine! But once I get the car up and running the way I want i'll start saving some money to do some work on it! I just dont want to design the fuel system and then redesign it again once i've worked the engine! If you know what I mean!
|
|
|
