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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 08:03
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After being driven almost barmy by the reluctor in the dizzy crapping out half of the time especially when it gets hot, i have decided to switch over to a hall effect sensor mounted on the crank, this should eliminate any cam belt slop (if there is any) too.
Has anyone done this? How did you do it, and what should i be looking out for?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 08:24
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mmmm hall effect
yes i would like to know to for connection to 18r crank what parts are required, what can be borrowed from other cars and fitted easily would be great.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
Somewhere on a dirt bowl ...
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:05
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frig hall effect, use opto couplers, thats what i am planning on doing when i convert to direct fire.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:14
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The problem with opto and reluctor is the size of the signal produced. Neither of those two produce any significant signal, wheras hall effect sensors actually produce a decent signal which doesnt get lost in the engine bay. Unlike the stock reluctor setup when it gets hot.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:15
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Why bother with mounting it there , when you are pulling that engine out to convert the clutch system , use the flywheel for the signal , the crank torsional vibrations with you next engine doing 11.000rpm will result in lost signal at the pulley , the flywheel side will be fine still .
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:17
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 Haha, its more that i lose the signal when the dizzy heats up too much and just cuts out. No more signal until it cools down. I think one of the reluctor coils is shorting inside, a la the old BMW issue.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:17
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what engine are u talkin bout
yr 4agze?
i have never seen one go on a toyota
u can get one sensor on the crank
but if u need a 2nd signal u need to fit a sensor on the cam
as u will get twice as many pulses when on the crank
usual setup is 2 tabs on crank
this gives u 4 pulses every cycle 2 spins
and u need 1 pulse every cycle for reference
i would not bother unless u have aftermarket ecu
has to be machined perfectly and also a slotted guide for sensor to move for adjusting timing
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:20
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Its not for my GZE. Its for my AE86 running a Haltech. For some reason when the engine bay heats up the CAS signal from the dizzy just cuts out.
Interpreting the signal is the easy bit, i was more thinking about where to mount the gear. Stuff like whether the crank trigger would be better than the fly trigger etc etc. I know that the signal is doubled when on the crank, thats pretty normal stuff.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:33
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yeah, im not too fantastic when it comes to electronics, but i am aware the optos will need boosting by FETs or whatever,
im going to try to go down that road all the same, ill just be running off the dizzy or cam pulley, as im just going to let the dizzy work as per usual.
what you should do is read the speed of the main pulley, and the flywheel then average the two out.
speaking of electronics takai, PM sent.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:41
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its probably the haltech
might be sesitive to the signals
as ive never had this prob with std toyota ecu
motecs used to have a prob with dizzy signals too
not sure if they cured them
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:43
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the hasselgren setup looks remarkably like a 36-1 tooth and reluctor as used on the Ford EDIS system...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 12:49
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Switching frequency is very important here....
I would be keen to see what the switching frequency of those Jaycar sensors are, I could not find any more info on the site.
When I was sussing out my setup, the only sensor worth mentioning was a Honeywell solid state item.
Used with a pull up resistor, gives a very nice digital output wave.
The magnet is inside the sensor itself so all you need are ferrous metal pickups.
And with a switching frequency of 500 kHz (yes you read that right....) you cant go wrong. Crank or Cam, 1 pickup or 5, 15000 rpm, it can do anything....
Cost me $60 bucks from RS.
Gabe
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 22:15
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agbe, according to the allegro microsystems datasheet which the Jaycar website has uploaded for the ULN3503U (http://www1.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/ZD1902 .pdf) the flat response is to 23kHz....
I am the one who buys these for Jaycar/Electus, and i dont remember buying the allegro brand at any stage....
FWIW, there is another hall effect sensor which is a copy of the old Siemens device which MILLIONS of people used to use in their dissys to make a strong electronic signal. (someone linked above)... i will either be using something like this or a notch wheel on my crank on the 18RGTE.
Sideshow. You are half correct with your thoughts that the Haltech is the one with the problem. Im my experience a fair few aftermarket ECUs (mainly the older and cheaper ones) have problems sensing the very low signal given by the toyota electronic dissys in their internal ignitors. Their ignitors are designed for a nice fat 5V signal, so when they get this little AC pulse of around 300mV or less, they dont like it and have to amplify it... so when electric noise is increased (as heated wires tend to do) the internal ignitors dont see the signal...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 22:23
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A friend and I fitted the guts from a Camira dissy to a 4AG a few years ago for an old Haltech E6A (no reluctor adapter). I seem to recall it took about half a day or so.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 22:28
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I ran some tests this morning, and the dizzy simply stops producing a signal when it gets hot. 
Maybe exhaust wrapping the exhaust will help somewhat.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Tue, 12 April 2005 23:51
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do you have the factory heat shield still on the dissy?
my 100kW dissy never failed despite a turbo manifold sitting directly below it!!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Wed, 13 April 2005 08:00
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Might have just been a dead dizzy. I swapped it out for another one, and swapped the heatshields over, as well as heat shielding the dizzy signal cable and all is good.
Tomorrow will be the acid test though.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Wed, 13 April 2005 08:57
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tghe best sensors for this type of shit are 3 wire hall effect
ive used them on race enignes and never had any probs
http://www.autronic.com/page_files/sensors.htm
goto above link and look for gear tooth sensor
these are 12 in earth and give good signal out
they are meant to be for pickup on crank or flywheel or camshaft
whenever we get probs with dizzy signals we instantly goto these
some of the times these aftermarket ecus are made to be used with a variety of sensors
therefore the sesitivity is not as good with some sensors
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Wed, 13 April 2005 11:01
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i have one on my 4a, running off the crank pulley and im using a haltech. if i can find a pic ill show you the setup. it was used cause the CAS interfered with the exhaust manifold, works fine 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Wed, 13 April 2005 11:23
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picsorban 
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Wed, 13 April 2005 11:34
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yeah dude, ill get the misus' digi cam tomorrow hopefully and post a pic. its a simple little setup really.
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Thu, 14 April 2005 07:19
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heres four pics, sorry for the sizes i dont have photoshop or anything else to resize other than opening and resaving in paint  photos are a bit crap, but you get the jist.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Fri, 15 April 2005 06:26
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yes, thats correct.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Fri, 15 April 2005 12:40
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Looking good. Im still undecided whether ill do that, or maybe embed the magnets in my flywheel, or maybe even in the Nevo underdrive pulley. But it definately needs to be done.
Had issues again yesterday even with significant heat sheilding.
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Location:
Launceston
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Sat, 16 April 2005 10:43
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Your not the only one having a problem with a reluctor pickup.
I have trouble with mine too, But its random, sometimes the car wont start at all,sometimes runs really bad backfiring through the intake etc.Then somedays it runs fine, I know it the reluctor as I have a microtech ecu and have a few ecus laying around,currently to get me out of trouble im using a microtech configured for hall effect but with microtechs you can set the triger inpulse to postitve or negitive, so its set to negitive connected direct to the points so it gives a negitive pulse and modded the points plate to rotate further around to put the closing of the points in the right position to fire.
It works well and had no misses at 7000 rpm either.
Oh and the ecu i was using with reluctor is working fine on another cars reluctor.
MTX8 is comming with multi coil, that why im reading this thread to see how someone else has done multi coil on a older engine.
Ive got a 2T-GEU
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Sat, 16 April 2005 12:55
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Well in my traditional bitsa design where i use whatever works best i will be using SR20DET coil over plug packs, on a custom plate.
But this is a bit of an overkill for most people.
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Converting 4A to Hall Effect
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Sat, 16 April 2005 13:52
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There are two different types of Hall effect sensors Jaycar sell.
This:
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZD190 0
and this:
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZD190 2
Both can work, and work in different ways.
The "UGN3503U Hall Effect Sensor" will require you to make a wheel that has inbuilt magnets.
The signal it produces will not be too noise resistant... similar to a reluctor signal (zero crossing of the produced sine signal is the center of the magnet).
If you can get the signal back to the ECU cleanly, the magnets & sensor setup will be quite robust.
The "HKZ-101 Hall Effect Device" will produce a nice clean signal that should be quite noise resistant (its on/off).
It may be more difficult to setup to be reliable though due to having to get the steel disk that runs through the center positioned exactly right.
If the sensor or disk moves, youll have one chewed up sensor.
Haltech should (youll have to check what type of signals it likes) run with both.
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