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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 08:22
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Now while im sure the subject title can be read several different ways, i was just sitting here in many of my mentally idle moments at work just thinking about the deaths that have resulted from drugs and alcohol and thought about comparing them.
Drugs are illegal, Alcohol is not. The question is this,
Do you think that Alcohol, although legal, has resulted in more deaths i.e. drink driving, bar fights that went wrong, crimes of passion etc. through use than any deaths resulting from use of drugs?
Now i thought about it a little more, and i feel that you cant include drug 'wars' as a contributing factor since im sure the majority of people involved werent 'on' the particular drug at the time of the conflict, but drug overdoses can obviously be included which im sure will shore up the number a bit. There is also Alcohol overdose or poisoning, but in comparison this would be a much lower figure....i think.
I was thinking on a global scale, but if people want, we can consider australia by itself...
My point is that even though Alcohol is not a prohibited substance, and can be considered a 'safe' drug i feel it has been directly responsible for more deaths than any combination of narcotics.
as i said, just one of my random thoughts that i thought might prove to be an interesting discussion. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 08:30
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to further my point, if the majority of people also feel alchool has killed moer than drugs have then why is it legal, and narcotics arent....
(im not attempting to glorify drugs, or insight people to feel they should be made legal, but thought that the logic behind legalising one and not the other was worth some consideration)
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 08:59
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I see what you are saying,
Alcohol is around more than drugs tho.
and maybe if weed was legal and alcohol illegal then this would be a weed vs narcotics disccusion.
It all depends when people use either for fun or they rely on them to get thru the day.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 09:37
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You really have to go back into history, to the early 20's in america to get an understanding of why prohibition was lifted on alcohol.Back then the black market was making an absolute fortune and you had a number of gangs/gangsters(al capone) etc shooting up neighbourhoods,the murder rate back then was actually the highest it has ever been in the US and if you think of the how conservative society was at the time it had alot more of an impact on things then the drug wars of today do. You suddenly had the majority of the police force corrupt and all types of other shit going on that was previously unheard of. Ontop of this legalisation let the government taxx the shit and make a shit load of money!
I agree that the effects of alcohol are wide spread and homes and lives are often fukked because of it but id still prefer it to be legal..
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 11:01
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Hi,
I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA or some other US secretive government-approved body is in the black market on drugs.
There's a hell of a lot of money in marketing drugs and the money all comes in "off the books" and helps funds many black ops.
It's just one of my conspiracy theories.
But yeah, I think alcohol related problems are very costly and wide spread. I wonder at times if it is more costly, in lives and money, than cigarettes.
Drugs are more difficult to summise. There's hard drugs and soft drugs. Just like there are hi and lo alcohol drinks. There's rabid addicts and those that just have the odd high - sort of like the odd drinker and the drunkard.
Mind you, when RBT begins to be able to detect many of the various drugs in our bodies, it will be interesting to see the results.
Here's a question for you. Why are drugs illegal?
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 11:12
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THE ONLY REASON OTHER RECREATIONAL DRUGS ARE NOT LEGAL IS because alcohol has caused so much damage over the years, who in theyre right mind would legalise ANOTHER drug...
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 12:28
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we can always dig up the old argument that was had re. marijuana etc a while back....
.... one good point raised there was that the overall concensus of the police force was that the reduction in arrests and social "disturbances" on new years eve the past few years has been thanks to the use of extasy and speed related drugs as opposed to alcohol.
I tend to agree. The social behaviourism of people on various drugs varies sooo widely... alcohol makes people violent and stupid, extasy makes people happy and content with everything, speed makes people a little hyperactive but otherwise harmless, pot makes people stupid and apathetic.....
anyway, its a big argument, with many valid points on all sides. I just dont want to see this get heated ok!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 12:44
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what's more dangerous?
a bunch of druken tossers outside the Victory pub (brisbane) attempting to converse with passers-by?
or a bunch of very stoned slackers in the night owl at 3am trying to make hotdogs without spilling cheese everywhere and laughing like seals?
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 13:11
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| thechuckster wrote on Thu, 14 April 2005 22:44 |
or a bunch of very stoned slackers in the night owl at 3am trying to make hotdogs without spilling cheese everywhere and laughing like seals?
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Hahaha, personal experience?
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Location:
VIC, Sth Frankston.
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 13:25
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I want marijuana and alcohol to switch...
I feel much better intoxicated on weed vs grog. But thats just me eh... what would bogans do if they didn't have VB? hmm VB branded joints 
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Location:
Central Coast, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 13:30
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I think I'll just watch this one and won't get involved 
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 13:53
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lol. drugs.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 13:59
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Cigarettes....
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On Probation
Location:
sydney
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 17:43
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i also want weed and alcohol to switch places
could u imagine the convienence of purchasing J's from a servo (just like ciggis)
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Thu, 14 April 2005 17:51
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Well, i think its different with weed because weed is legal in some places, and can also be medically prescribed...
Im all for weed being legal...
When you say drugs versus alchohol, its too broad of a spectrum, because i could say alchohol results in people getting nasty, violent etc.. whereas marijuana just makes you chill out and be all mellow, however another drug (chemical etc) could make you nasty and violent as well..
As for the weed vs alchohol, it is my favourite debate/discussion, along with religion...
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 03:46
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Why does it have to be MJ vs Alchohol??? They can both exist at the same time happily 
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 04:27
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i dont have a problem with anyone smoking weed or drinking, but as with just about everything, dont go overboard.
and a common misconception is that weed is a "soft" ie. harmless drug. heavy repetive use is almost proven to cause, if not agitate a dormant paranoid psyhcosis.
so be happy, just dont over do it.
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On Probation
Location:
Charnwood
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 04:47
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| Quote: |
I found these pictures...
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this is the second thread I have seen this in now 79rollaboy, funny shit. What is the go with it?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 04:55
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Where's Ed and GT to have their 2c here?
They had some very good arguements in the previous thread i eluded to.
Me myself. I dont like pot.
From my experience it just makes people stupid, lazy and socially retarded.
That is all.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 05:59
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I'd have to say that they are as bad as each other.
Personally i would prefer to have a bit of weed or some beam and cola as opposed to speed,ecstacy etc but thats just me.
As for alcos vs druggies than the druggies get no sympathy from me whatsoever,they made a choice and now they have to live with it.Damm snackheads,you can never tell if they will pay the fare or try to rob you with a dirty neddle to get money for the next hit.
As for the alcos i feel sorry for them really,all they want to do is have the next drink,pay the fare and don't get aggressive.I also heard that alcholism is related to a gentic condition,maybe i'm wrong though.I have noticed that there are less alcos around nowdays so maybe they are being replaced by the druggies.
Social use though affects everyone differently and i don't think you can say there is much difference,some will be happy while others will want to start a blue the first chance they get wether they take drugs or drinks.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 08:00
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A lot of good points have been brought up...there is no doubt in my mind that both alcohol and narcotics have potential to wreck families and cause people to commit acts of violence...
because even though certain types of drugs are not prone to cause violence in themselves they can cause addictions which can manifest in violence when people resort to stealing to support their habit.
But I would have to say that alcohol would have to be the bigger culprit as it only takes you getting drunk once to feel superior and want to start trouble, but most violent tendencies associated with other drugs appear after repeated or heavy use.
maybe half the reason why they are still controlled substances despite the less obvious social implications of their use compared to alcohol is the governments way of controlling supply and demand because they are getting kick backs from the whole industry...
its a pretty far fetched thought, but who knows what a truly objective perspective of the situation is due to the fact that the media and society itself affects our judgment and outlook on life in subtle ways we arent aware of. Another method of control???
Isnt it fascinating what certain chemical compounds can do to a single human brain, and more so the repercussions of its use when used en mass...
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 09:08
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With my job, dealing with drunks at their worst, and having to tell them what they least want to hear "sorry sir, I think you've had enough, and will have to leave"; I can tell you I would much rather work with stoners, although the point would be moot, as I doubt you'd have to have security for a pub full of people stoned out of their gourds.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 12:25
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Alchool and drugs have too things in common, they both can intoxica.
But drugs like marajuana that wosto be legal in america, back in the 70,s where later found that it can and be acdictive, and cause permanent brain damage if USED on a on-going basis and will lead to stronger drugs.
My uncle start smoking crack at 14, at 21 he got caught stealling stuff from an office at night because he needed money for stronger shit, before that he got kicked out of my grandpa's house for stelling furniture and other stuff.
Anyway he got sent to prision and in the second week, he couldend old on anymore, he hang himself.
Alchool on the other is not addictive if its drinked in moderation, iven if its a hang over, would be fine the next day
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 13:15
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Hi,
| bubbles wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 22:25 |
But drugs like marajuana that wosto be legal in america, back in the 70,s where later found that it can and be acdictive, and cause permanent brain damage if USED on a on-going basis and will lead to stronger drugs.
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Most recreational drugs, including coffee and tea and alcohol, do cause damage to the human body if used repeatedly over a long time. However, there is no proof that smoking MJ leads to a need for more powerful drugs. I know potheads that have been on the stuff for decades and they don't have any desire whatsoever to ramp up to a stronger drug. I regard that MJ leads to stronger drugs as pure media-hyped fallacy. Some do, but the vast number of MJers prefer to stay where they are. If someone requires drugs and there was no MJ then they'd start on H or Morphine or some other drug. And, many do just go straight to the stronger drugs, bypassing the so-called "soft drugs".
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Alchool on the other is not addictive if its drinked in moderation, iven if its a hang over, would be fine the next day
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I think AA and its many, many members around the world would disagree with that statement. Nothing is addictive if you take it in moderation and stopping it doesn't create uncontrollable urgings.
Depending upon the pysche and other wanton needs and urges of the taker, anybody can become addictive to something - be it alcohol, MJ, tea, coffee, chocolate, petrol, Toyotas, etc.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 14:30
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I have to disagree with some points.
Have you ever had to hold down an agressive maniac on speed? It takes twice as many people than someone pissed or wacked.
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 15:38
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| THE WITZL wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 12:55 |
Where's Ed and GT to have their 2c here?
They had some very good arguements in the previous thread i eluded to.
Me myself. I dont like pot.
From my experience it just makes people stupid, lazy and socially retarded.
That is all.
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thats the point Karl, they dont smoke it to make them stronger...
Eldar.O.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 17:25
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| muaythaiman wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 00:30 |
I have to disagree with some points.
Have you ever had to hold down an agressive maniac on speed? It takes twice as many people than someone pissed or wacked.
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Yeah but you can go a few ways on this....
-> would the same person on any other drug have acted the same?
-> would they have been MORE agressive on another drug? eg alcohol.
Me personally, the only people i have seen get agressive on speed, extascy or other amphettamines have been juice junkies (roid boys). The combination of "roid rage" (yes its real) with heightened sense of alertness and a whacked out hormone system really makes for one angry, messy individual. Take the same person and get them intoxicated on any drug and they will go nuts still, just in a different manner.
To be honest, i woud much prefer to be randomly approached by some bunch of randoms all pilling or speeding rather than drunk. The former in this case tends to maintain self awareness and far more understanding of consequences and repocussions.
Pot is just another thing altogether.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Fri, 15 April 2005 22:04
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I think this thread needs MORE PICTURES!
Heres a few images to categories different types of addicts:
Extacy and amphetamine users:
| Quote: |
I feel smarter, stronger, more aggressive... I feel ready to "TAKE ON THE WORLD!"
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Stoners:
From left to right: Alco, Diabetic, Smackhead
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 01:38
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I know someone who gets excited and hypeactive on "the pot" and just stays awake for ages on ecstasy. D'frent strokes for d'frent folks I guess !
I used to be up for teh M.J. but the last handful of times I hopped into the gear, it just made me wanna go to sleep, and feel shitty for about 4 days afterwards. 
Needless to say I traded-in and bought a great little alcohol/ciggies deal - and haven't looked back!
Unforunately, The upkeep and servicing on the ciggies was a little too much for teh lungs to handle, so I traded THEM in too a few weeks ago, and picked up a fantastic deal on MORE BEER !
I figure if it ain't Heroin, get into whatever does it for ya' as long as you're not get'n all "punchy 'n stabby" widt teh niggas at da pub. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 04:41
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I think MJ often does lead to other drugs,not so much because of the high or the quest for a stronger hit,but just because its the first non legal drug people take.Once you crack the seal and start taking drugs for the first time it can really expose you to different parts of society that you previously didnt deal with.I think the main reason MJ leads to other drugs is because it teaches you to interact with dealers,how to talk on the phone and all other areas associated with "scoring", Often youll develope a connection with these dealers that will lead you to be viewed as cooler than the other kids,you may then try and impress your peers further by taking another drug that is commonly used by the dealer,soon your mates are all into it and your grabbing extra for them with a little cut for yourself, next thing youve saved up and started to buy in bigger quantities and all of a sudden YOUR THE DEALER!
This is what has happened to so many people I grew up with,I for one wish I had never touched the green as it fukked up my life for a long time and certainly let me into heavier drugs,I also believe our very high suiside rate is directly linked to MJ and the copious amounts people smoke.
I for one would not like marijuana to be legalised.
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Location:
Sydney Australia and stuff
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 05:35
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What I find interesting is that Alcohol and Tabacco are the legal drugs and coincidentally they are taxed drugs.
In my opinion, both are bad but the negative response that banning alcohol has is higher than the response would be that other drugs are illegal. I think it's more a case of alcohol being more wide spread than other drugs.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 07:49
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| THE WITZL wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 14:55 |
Where's Ed and GT to have their 2c here?
They had some very good arguements in the previous thread i eluded to.
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usual story... ive said my piece once, CBF'd typing it again. those interested can search it out, or hit google. but also as usual, peoples opinions are rarely swayed, so im not going to push the point too hard
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 07:53
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ps ed - respond to my pm biatch!
and you should be over at my place picking up your seats right about now (although I'm heading out now, so another day would be better)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 07:56
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for anyone who things pot should be legalised, go and google "drug induced psychosis" - I deal with these people every day, and until you've seen what it can do you can't claim to have an informed opinion.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 08:06
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| draven wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 17:56 |
for anyone who things pot should be legalised, go and google "drug induced psychosis" - I deal with these people every day, and until you've seen what it can do you can't claim to have an informed opinion.
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wont happen to them draven, dont worry about it
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Location:
Batemans Bay, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 12:01
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Not to sure if weed or other drugs should be legal.........all have there pro's cons........Im a believer that you should be able to do what you like to urself as along as it affects noonene else........alot can be learnt from different drug experiences.......and you cant understand what I mean unless you have actually tried them..........
drugs affect everybody differently.......with the usual common effects present at the same time....... like weed, when I was cruzin on it I used to get motivated and do weights ect.....I liked doing things when I was high......instead of sitting round watchin time fly by.....(most of the time).....
I find durries fuckin gross.....they make me sick and feel like shit.....but weed is most tolorable on the other hand..............lots of good points raised....and I think..""SilverGhost"" has a great thinking mind......brings up some good arguments...like your style man...
I could ramble on about so many related points ahy.......just CBF.....its such a broad spectrum.....
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Location:
Rockhampton QLD
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 13:17
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i hate hangovers  the world would be a better place without drugs. albiet more boring.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 14:28
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 18:06 |
| draven wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 17:56 |
for anyone who things pot should be legalised, go and google "drug induced psychosis" - I deal with these people every day, and until you've seen what it can do you can't claim to have an informed opinion.
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wont happen to them draven, dont worry about it
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yep, that mentality is almost impossible to sway - I always feel like I'm wasting my breath.
and define "as long as it affects noone else". Drug induced psychosis causes huge strains on families, adds a huge cost to the state health system.. I could go on about the effects, but really I think the point will only get through to people who are of the same opinion in the first place.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 15:16
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Yeah, Pot's harmless and fun-fun-fun for most people, but for the minority that it fvcks-up, the consequences are pretty nasty. I Decided teh pot didn't particularly agree with me as a long term proposition, so I jumped-ship before I found out whether or not I'm a flip-out candidate.
The problem with legalising 'ol M.J. is that you can't trust the people susceptable to schizophrenia and other mental illness to pull the pin when they/someone realises there's a problem. On the other hand, why penalise the responsible pot smokin' majority to protect a few nut-jobs?
I s'pose it comes down to the old arguement between enforcement and harm reduction. Do you try and stop everyone from getting it, or sell a controlled, taxed product - using the tax for screening, clinics, counselling etc. . . I think the problem for weed is that it's just so damn easy to grow in the backyard/cupboard, which makes it REAL hard for serious revenue to be taxed from it.
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Location:
cronulla
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 18:34
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Usually im too lazy to get invoved in rhetorical arguments, but what the hey, like I had anything better to do. So here goes.
I Personally can make an incredibly unique offering to this argument.
So Here I am in Finland, The rate of drug use here is almost the lowest of any country on earth. Interestingly enough it also has the highest rate of youth suicide in the world as well as a massive alchoholism problem. Now almost EVERYONE here drinks, it is inbred into the culture, it is neither embarrasing or a crime to be raving mad drunk in the middle of the day in the middle off the city, and people barely bat an eye when some plastered old man is screaming at the top of his lungs at the nearest wall impressing his point to it how important it is that women vote and collect mushrooms. It is uncommon for me to take the metro anywhere in Helsink without being within smelling range of a completely drunk messy wreck of a person, both men and women, although more often men. The boat from tallin to helsinki was a giant piss up for young and old and people were so absolutely drunk they were having domestics, falling over trying to walk and throwing up repeatedly, this included men and women up to about 80 years old and .
Where does this lead? you may ask..... well, since I have been here, I have not seen one physical fight, never seen anyone being harrased, never been robbed,and not heard of anyone who has experienced these things. When i do get stopped in the streets by drunks, ( which happens alot) I get asked for a bit of change but not yelled at if i dont give. I get asked if I have any drink or smokes I could spare. and I get talked to about politics and the state of the world, and the difference between generations. These drunk wrecks seem to want nothing more than to have few and connect with other people. Not a bit of violence anywhere here, but more alchoholism than I have ever experienced. It is possible that actions when influenced by a drug may be affected by more factors than just being under the influence, here cultural conditioning seems to play a part in human interactions while under the influence of alchohol. Which means, the stereotype that people just get rowdy violent when theyre drunk seems to be culturally specific and not all encompassing.
I have seen about everything that Australias drug scene has to offer, and Not one positive thing to say about it, the only positive that i can take from it is the realization of what an awful life anything to do with this is.
Having seen my best friends from youth go through almost every kind of drug addiction that can be had, I have seen how it affects people in the short and the long term. ( please note that 'drug addictions' in this case also refers to alchoholism) I have seen good, normal, smart people with prospects to make the most of their life go from straight A's in a top school to selling drugs to kids to provide for their own habbit and spending years in jail and drug rehab.
Drugs and alchlol are both VERY bad and sadly both are in some way endorsed by the society we live in. The only sure way to realize these thing are bad is through life experience, and sadly most people who use any kind of drug, could never easily make the realization that what they are doing is wrong, because that makes them in some way think that they are a bad person which is not something that anyone wants to admit, and although this is not necessarily the case, it is hard to jump this hurdle.
There is no justification for any kind of regular drug use by any person, Life was meant to be dealt with in the state that we were born into, altered states although justifiable as a lifes experience are not any way to deal with every day life. It is beyond stupidity to believe that when your senses are in some way altered by a drug that you have a substantial advantage in the world in any way, by changing the way your brain works away from how it should you are compromising your ability to make choices that will allow you to live happily, ufettered and unhindered in a world that is built on coexisting as we are.
Of course the point could be raised that ' how about people who take medication for mental illness, theyre taking drugs and it makes them better'
well there will always be variations to either side of the scale that contains the theoretical 'normal' and some people who may seem like they are better on medication would never know how they would be with proper treatment ( intensive psychiatric care). And for those that are beyond the reach of help, and need to live on tranqus or such, dont be stupid and compare yourself to them, they have a disease which would not even allow them to survive at all if there wasn't a society built that supports equal rights and life for all.
Although my point of view comes across as a little arrogant, its is fairly solid. I never say that I wont move from my point of view if someone can point out a more logical/intelligent/acurate or proven point of view. however, I do find the pathetic attemps at people defending thier own drug use a little tiring..
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Location:
cronulla
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sat, 16 April 2005 18:37
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oh and i forgot...... ALCHOHOL IS A DRUG! achohol vs drugs is like saying cokaine vs drugs, I see your direction but both are unequithecally unessecary.
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Location:
Sydney
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September 2004
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Sun, 17 April 2005 00:24
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"I'm trying to think about why marijuana wasn't legalised yonks ago."
Did I not *just* state that marijuana can cause permenant drug induced psychosis? And I'm not talking about a life spent having 20+ cones a day, and it's not like liver disease, caused by a life of heavy alcohol abuse. I've seen 25 year olds who've been hospitalised for years, and will most likely spend the rest of their lives in group homes or supported accomodation, all through what many would consider light or moderate use, for a short period of time.
The reason it will hopefully remain outlawed is not to punish the majority, but to protect the minority as you say. But in this case the minority of people predisposed to this is 1% or more of the population. Doesn't sound like a whole lot, but imagine what would happen to society and the sydney health system if it was suddenly hit by 40 thousand people with a chronic, incurable disease that required weekly medication subsidised by the govt, on average 2-3 admissions to hospital a year if they are not living in supported/sheltered accomodation, and to top it all off most of them are non-compliant with medication, because they don't think there's anything wrong!
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Location:
Sydney
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May 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Mon, 25 April 2005 08:55
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I was suprised to find out that a few years ago New Zealand a legalised a party drug. googled it and found this
http://www.tearaway.co.nz/Article.aspx?PostingID=4 146
'According to the EACD report, when the active ingredient in the pills, benzylpiperazine (BZP), is mixed with triflourophenylmethylpiperazine (TFMPP), the effect is similar to that created by MDMA (otherwise known as Ecstasy or E).'
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Mon, 25 April 2005 15:09
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| Celica_John wrote on Mon, 25 April 2005 18:55 |
I was suprised to find out that a few years ago New Zealand a legalised a party drug. googled it and found this
http://www.tearaway.co.nz/Article.aspx?PostingID=4 146
'According to the EACD report, when the active ingredient in the pills, benzylpiperazine (BZP), is mixed with triflourophenylmethylpiperazine (TFMPP), the effect is similar to that created by MDMA (otherwise known as Ecstasy or E).'
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triflourophenylmethylpiperazine (TFMPP),
wtfbbq
can doctors or scientists actually remember how to say that without reading it?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 06:29
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| studman wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 14:47 |
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I found these pictures...
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this is the second thread I have seen this in now 79rollaboy, funny shit. What is the go with it?
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Well now this has been posted back up again,can someone please explain what the meaing is behind these pictures?? Am I slow,cause I just dont get it
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:05
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another reason that the drug known as alcohol socially excepted is the method of induction (is that the right word?).
drinking (water, soda - whatever, not alcs) is a perfectly normal, everyday event, and drinking alcohol doesnt look out of the ordinary.
but if there were people at the bar in the club/pub ripping bongs, well, something about that doesnt sit right. its not something that everyone does anyway, so like someone else mentioned, its looks rather "junkie".
know i know you might bring up the point of MJ in joints, and that being the same as ciggies, but even smokers are getting extradited by society these days, with the ever more strict smoking regulations, especially ones that are coming in over the next few years.
the point to the alcohol vs. MJ argument shouldn't be how "harmless" weed is (its not, i have 2 friends that have suffered the drug induced psychosis that draven speaks of), as opposed to alcohol, but more so how alcohol is ALOT more harmful that you would think it is. my mate was a HEAVY drinker for his age (17), and now he has permanent liver damage from drinking like a seasoned 40 year old.
basically, all drugs are bad, mkay?
except shrooms
jk
[Updated on: Tue, 26 April 2005 08:08]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:57
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| bigg willie style wrote on Tue, 26 April 2005 18:05 |
another reason that the drug known as alcohol socially excepted is the method of induction (is that the right word?).
drinking (water, soda - whatever, not alcs) is a perfectly normal, everyday event, and drinking alcohol doesnt look out of the ordinary.
but if there were people at the bar in the club/pub ripping bongs, well, something about that doesnt sit right. its not something that everyone does anyway, so like someone else mentioned, its looks rather "junkie".
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This is a good point, but it begs the question, is the reason why ripping bongs looks out of the ordinary is because it has always been behind closed doors? what if generations of people were brought up in a society where ppl did that in public? We all accept the world that we are brought up into, so if everyone saw that their whole lives would it seem so out of place?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Casula
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 09:07
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All I'm going to say on this subject at this time is.
After a bloody hard/hot days work I know what I'd sooner reach for, A BLOODY ICE COLD BEER.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 11:21
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Hi,
| draven wrote on Sun, 17 April 2005 10:24 |
"I'm trying to think about why marijuana wasn't legalised yonks ago."
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It is in some countries, such as Holland. It has been decriminalised in 12 states of the USA.
The USA illegalised MJ in 1937. It wasn't due to noble reasons such as health or anything like that. Essentially marijuana was banned because it provided a tool for harassing the people amongst whom its use was popular, such as ethnic minorities - such as blacks and hispanics. The American people were informed that they'd go insane and crazy if they partook the drug.
The USA likes to exert its ideals and influence on other countries and that is why Australia (amongst other nations) has adopted similar laws.
In Holland, where MJ is legal, only 3% of the population smoke it, and their students consistently achieve some of the best education results in Europe. If there are serious problems caused by legalising MJ, then 25years of the Dutch experiment has not revealed what they are.
A study in 1999 in the USA ("Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base") on MJ concluded that...
- marijuana has some well established medical uses,
- it does not lead to harder drugs (gateway or stepping stone theory)
- it's addiction potential is not very serious and
- it's side effects are within the range tolerated for other legal medicines.
The psychological dependance rate on MJ is about 2%, which is far less than the rate for alcohol.
Marijuana is not illegal because of what we know about it but because of what people can be made to believe about it. Most people have no personal experience with marijuana and rely on what they are told by the state and the mass media. Those who know better from personal experience do not stand up and speak out, for fear of being prosecuted for breaking the law.
The government doesn't want to change the law either, since the fear of arrest is useful. It makes many citizens stay quiet. Politicians like citizens who don't cause them trouble and so does the police. Politicians can always use drug abuse as an excuse for all kinds of social problems that they are unwilling to address. By playing on people's fears of drugs politicians can justify new laws that ristrict civil liberties and give the state more power. Simply put, drug prohibition creates fear and fear helps to manipulate and control people. Don't kid yourself by thinking it's banned due to health reasons.
Hemp has been cultivated by man for thousands of years. It's been smoked, turned into rope and clothes and many other useful things. It's a very versatile plant.
seeyuzz
river
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Tue, 26 April 2005 15:24
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| riceburna73 wrote on Tue, 26 April 2005 16:29 |
| studman wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 14:47 |
| Quote: |
I found these pictures...
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this is the second thread I have seen this in now 79rollaboy, funny shit. What is the go with it?
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Well now this has been posted back up again,can someone please explain what the meaing is behind these pictures?? Am I slow,cause I just dont get it
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ya whats the deal with the pics??
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Wed, 27 April 2005 03:24
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River, awesome post!!! Respect to the MJ
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Wed, 27 April 2005 03:26
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river, did you write that, or just cut n paste??
ill withold comment until i know whom im addressing
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Wed, 27 April 2005 03:44
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River,
you will actually find that the reasons you gave for the illegalisation of Marijuana in the USA in 1937 were merely the spin doctoring given by one of the sole political spokesmen as his reasoning to congress etc for the illegalisation.
This particular individual, who's name eludes me, was in fact on the board of directors (and a large investor) in the company which invented Nylon. This company was desperately trying to secure large Naval contracts for the supply of shipping rope and similar materials..... and guess what the competition was.
That's right - HEMP.
Hemp ropes were in use in the US Navy right up until the illegalistation of Marijuana (and its harmless derivative, hemp) as their no.1 rated and used rope for all purposes. Nylon rope eventually replaced it once hemp was banned and a certain previously mentioned "fat-cat" became a very rich man - especially as he pushed the illegalisation of marijuana worldwide and other nations' Naval forces etc started buying Nylon ropes as the previously used hemp alternatives became difficult to buy and illegal to make.
Moral of the story is: Behind almost every major law change and criminalisation act in the 20th century western world was an alterior motive which a single or group of individual posed to benefit substantially from.
**************************
Either way, i still dont like pot. I think it is gay, with aids.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:39
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Hi,
Witzl, you are referring to Dupont, who had made nylon and wanted to remove the competition, which, as you mentioned, was hemp. Also there were a few other pharmaceutical companies who also sought to have hemp removed as to reduce the competition.
When the Federal Bureau of Narcotics was formed in 1930, its director was Harry J Anslinger. Anslinger came out with wonderous lines (regarding MJ usage) such as "reefers make the black man think he's as good as a white man", "if you smoke canabis you'll kill your brother", "marijuan leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing", and a whole more quotes.
He teamed up with William Randolph Hearst who owned a large chain of newspapers. He had invested heavily in timber (for paper for his business) and didn't want to see hemp-paper get in the way.
| Quote: |
Moral of the story is: Behind almost every major law change and criminalisation act in the 20th century western world was an alterior motive which a single or group of individual posed to benefit substantially from.
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Agreed.
I'm not here to say MJ is good or bad, though I do think there are worse legal and illegal drugs around.
Ed, I cut/pasted 2 paragraphs. They were well written as it was and I found it easier to do so, rather than re-type. The other info I gleaned off the net. Actually, what started me thinking was a long time ago, one of my mates (who is now a lawyer in ICAC) had to do a thesis on the illegalisation of MJ. He told me about it being more a racist/people-control reason than for anything medical. So, I went out and did a bit of a search and found some supporting evidence.
seeyuzz
river
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Drugs vs Alcohol
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:49
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thanks for the clarification River, unfortunately i didnt have the time to go searching through the internet for the evidenciary support of something i read/heard/watched a few years back......
Well i wonder how amphettamines and opiates became illegal??
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) 1 Vote(s)
