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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 25 April 2005 12:51
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This is exactly why quads should be boxed up:
Also another reason to get AFFF fire extinguishers/fire bombs. Basically i had a backfire out one of my throttles which caught on the filter sock and ignited the area surrounding it.
Rewire at least there. Probably a lot more.
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 25 April 2005 13:25
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That shit is WAK!
I hope you can have your car back out there again soon!
And yes...quad throttle sock filters are very very flammamable.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 25 April 2005 13:31
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Chris your cooked! 
nah that sucks, also coz it happened on the first lap..
gl getting car running soon dude
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 25 April 2005 22:41
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not cool 
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:44
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looks bad.
could have been worse tho. you got off lucky.
fuck the socks i say. useless anyhow.
get some jubiride flute mesh filters for the track.
pics of them
and installed
a little 'dirtier' air than with the socks (whilst on the track) is better than a fucked wiring harness and a lot of charring imho.
or if your dirty air paranoid but still want decent flow into the engine, garage annex makes a kit using 4 tapered k&n oval filters for each throttle.
see here http://www7.airnet.ne.jp/annex/air_%20filterl.htm
price? nfi.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:48
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Those K&Ns go up just as fast, and probably woudl have done more damage than the socks, as they are longer burning. The Jubiride filters are crap too, might stop rocks but sand and other fine particles like dirt it wont stop. Considering as you are drifting and the amount of time you will probably spend off the track in teh dirt as you are learning i woudl seriously advise against them
For me its a moot point, im moving to a plenum setup to get cold air in there aswell.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:52
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My goodness  you where lucky that fuel line and surge tank didn't go up too , was the back fire caused by that ignition problem ? Well hopefully there's no damage apart from some paint there , list the parts if any are needed and i am sure everyone will help get it back on track . What was that cars nick name again ? i am not superstitious but that might require a rethink ,
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:57
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relocating the pump and tank cant go astray either.
Garth... lots and lots of dusrt and dirt at mallala... evenm if you never come off.. there were a few times when other people came off in front of people and they had to drive through the dust cloud...
i'll be running socks.. but with a fireextinguisher or two handy 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:57
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takai, i see your point but if you wanna go quads to air or the perf increase, why not just shield off your intake area with sheet aluminium and run them with mesh filters? like many other JDM cars ive seen!
that way if its spits back it wont burn anything only char your aluminium?
mebbe? just a thought.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 07:58
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Heh, Sparky it is and Sparky it will stay.
Im pretty sure that it occured due to the throttle getting stuck open, hit redline and due to the lack of exhaust gas sucking the fuel/air mix out of the intake it ignited (probably when it hit the extractors) and flashed back through while both intake and exhaust valves were open, then ignited the fuel air mix still in the throat and propogated until it hit the socks.
Also both of the high pressure lines split after about 3 minutes (was probably the whoosh i heard), but nothing else ignited thankfully.
Most of it woudl just be replacing parts of the loom and stuff, probably $100 all up, but im taking the opportunity to change to a Saab 9000 clutch slave, and repainting the engine bay aswell as a few other "little" mods.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:01
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I have thought about shielding off the intake with alloy, and am still considering it as an option to completely boxing it off. Just not sure yet.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:01
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well. not everything is bad. improvement out of misfortune. 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:05
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Was just thinking about it with the Jubiride filters they may help to stop flame propogation due to the filter size. Where do you get them from etc, i might get a set just to experiment with.
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:10
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some fine mesh AND the socks would work... flame will not pentrate the mesh... and not lighting the socks. while the actual filtering would still be done by the socks.
Or is this tioo much of an airflow restriction?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:17
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Hm, well if you coudl investigate getting them in and a final cost, while ill experiment with meshes and stuff.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:18
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sure!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:23
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ok 1 set shipped via EMS 2-3 day ship to my house and then via express to your place is $140
this includes customs and tax also.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:26
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| improvedae86 wrote on Tue, 26 April 2005 17:52 |
My goodness you where lucky that fuel line and surge tank didn't go up too
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yeh i reckon, thats what i was about to say!
Did track officials extinguish the fire??
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 08:36
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Yeah, fireys extinguished. I should have had my AFFFs in the car though :S
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 10:32
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Get cold air intake box..
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 10:52
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go keichii's finger hahahh  
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 11:02
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Oh so thats what that thing is.
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 13:52
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| Arch wrote on Tue, 26 April 2005 20:22 |
go keichii's finger hahahh
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Well spotted arch!
U should POR15 and heatwrap your loom and fuel lines like I told you Chris
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 15:08
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Takai
I am very sorry to see the mess. Nasty, but could very easily have been lots worse. You have got my intrest. Do you really think that's how it caught fire?. How & why did the throttle get stuck open?. Was it wide open?. Did you switch it off as soon as you realised? or was it running at WOT for about 3 mins. before the h.p.fuel lines split & "whooshed", or was the engine stopped when the lines split, with the fire still going? If so how come the extra fuel didn't ignite? & if the engine was stopped how come it still had full fuel pressure? I feel it's important to do a very thorough & comprehensive post mortem in an effort to find some answers as to what really happened & why.
Good luck
emmac
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 26 April 2005 22:13
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| emmac wrote on Wed, 27 April 2005 01:08 |
Takai
I am very sorry to see the mess. Nasty, but could very easily have been lots worse. You have got my intrest. Do you really think that's how it caught fire?. How & why did the throttle get stuck open?. Was it wide open?. Did you switch it off as soon as you realised? or was it running at WOT for about 3 mins. before the h.p.fuel lines split & "whooshed", or was the engine stopped when the lines split, with the fire still going? If so how come the extra fuel didn't ignite? & if the engine was stopped how come it still had full fuel pressure? I feel it's important to do a very thorough & comprehensive post mortem in an effort to find some answers as to what really happened & why.
Good luck
emmac
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Well given that one of the most exposed wires (ran across the top of the cam covers) was the ignition wiring im pretty sure thats why the engine died. Not entirely sure how the throttle got stuck wide open yet, and i dont have the car back yet (sitting in a local workshop until i get time on Thursday to pick it up), but i will be investigating that one.
Engine was definately stopped when the lines split, and the fire was quite definately still going, and yes the extra fuel did ignite. EFI systems dont drastically reduce in fuel pressure when they are just turned off, would have still been maybe 20-30psi in the high pressure lines.
Dont worry about the post-mortem, ive been through this several times now.
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 00:20
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Takai
Are you saying that the reason that the engine stopped running with the throttle stuck open was when the ignition wiring burnt out???. Did you do anything to switch the engine off when you initially realised that the throttle was stuck open or did you switch it of & this prove unsuccessful thus letting it run at the "redline" until the wiring eventually burnt through. What does your ecu use for rev. limiting,fuel cut, ign.cut, both, & in what order did you have them enabled. Yes you still have residual line pressure after engine stops but not for very long if the pipe burns through,luckily for you. A perfect example of why the fuel pump is de-activated within a short time of no engine rotation.
emmac.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 01:00
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No, the car stalled for some reason which is yet to be determined. Unsure whether it was before or after the fire started. Logic tells me it was after the fire started, as there is little way for a fire to start after the engine has cut out. Will investigate this further. Crap inside the cylinders/head should tell me this one.
When i first saw the smoke i just ripped out the "big red key" i.e. safety cutout. Which kills all power to the engine as well as the fuel pumps. The fuel pumps are controlled by the Haltech anyway, so as soon as the Haltech looses power the fuel pumps turn off. The relay is a secondary assistance measure.
When the Haltech hits rev limit it is set to reduce the amount of fuel pumped back to minimum, and kill spark. Fuel limit and ign cut, then fuel cut next.
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Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 08:08
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spewing mate i bet
i havent had that problem yet - only when tappet clearances are wrong.
yeah forget the socks and mesh filters go box and pod filter car should run better and it will have a ramming effect on the car.
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 11:55
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G'Day Takai
Sorry, but I'm getting confused by your explaination of events. Your earlier post said the throttle got stuck open,engine hit redline & ignited the fuel mix starting the fire. Your last post said the engine stalled for an undetermined [as yet]reason. So did the engine stall while running with a stuck throttle at the redline,or did it stall first, then you restarted it & then the throttle stuck open or did it just stall & you tryed to restart it & it caught fire. Was the engine running when you turned off the master switch or not.
emmac.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 12:09
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I remember going to restart the engine after it stalled but never getting to crank it over because i saw the smoke first.
From what i can remember and what i can figure out the engine stalled while at redline, and logically it would be at the same time that the fire started. I can only assume that the engine stalled due to the fire, probably due to the wiring being torched, unless it stalled from a completely unrelated event.
The engine was not running when i pulled the master switch, it was the first thing i did when i realised the engine bay was on fire.
I only noticed that the throttles were stuck open when i was being towed back to the pits and the accelerator pedal snapped back and closed the throttles.
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 13:32
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Takai
Right. So you were toddling along happily with the engine running on the redline [? rpm] & it stalled. If it stalled due to the wiring being burnt thru.[torched] then LOGICALLY the fire started BEFORE the engine stopped NOT AT THE SAME TIME otherwise the wiring would not be burnt thru.to cause the engine to stall. If you only noticed the throttle was stuck open when the pedal snapped back perhaps the heat of the fire had caused them to be held,jammed,until things had cooled down allowing them to return to closed.Still doesn't help understanding of why it happened though,but I think we can now safely forget your original theory,
& look further.Don't you.
emmac
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 27 April 2005 13:40
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*sigh*. That was exactly what my original theory was.
| Quote: |
Im pretty sure that it occured due to the throttle getting stuck open, hit redline and due to the lack of exhaust gas sucking the fuel/air mix out of the intake it ignited (probably when it hit the extractors) and flashed back through while both intake and exhaust valves were open, then ignited the fuel air mix still in the throat and propogated until it hit the socks.
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| Quote: |
Well given that one of the most exposed wires (ran across the top of the cam covers) was the ignition wiring im pretty sure thats why the engine died.
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| Quote: |
No, the car stalled for some reason which is yet to be determined. Unsure whether it was before or after the fire started. Logic tells me it was after the fire started, as there is little way for a fire to start after the engine has cut out. Will investigate this further. Crap inside the cylinders/head should tell me this one.
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All quotes from further up in this thread
I completely dont see what you are getting at. I came to this theory on Monday about 20mins after i got the car off the track and started poking around. I still havnt found any evidence to modify my theory, except to add a possible clause that the engine stalled completely seperately to the fire, but that fact doesnt change the fact that the fire would have already started when the engine stalled (for whatever reason)
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Fri, 29 April 2005 12:02
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*sigh*, That was exactly what my original theory was.
NO Takai, that's incorrect. My post is not "exactly what your original theory was",nothing like it as it even says "we can now safely forget your original theory"
Please re-read it & then re-read your first quote that states your original theory.[btw surely you would have known if your throttle stuck open when driving] Your third quote sort of agrees with my last post but is also in contradiction of your original theory.It seems what you "completely don't see" is that the engine would need to be stopped for your original theory to be a chance.But as you state in your last sentance "the fire would have already started" when the engine stalled"
emmac
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Fri, 29 April 2005 13:47
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Alas you are misreading my original statement. I think that there is a contention over the lack of exhaust gasses.
What i meant by this is that due to the lack of spark (being at redline) the engine was not igniting the fuel pumped into the cylinders (at severely reduced rate due to the combined partial fuel cut) and therefore exhaust scavenging was not optimal. Sure a lot of unburnt fuel/air mixture would have flowed out through the extractors, but just as much unburnt fuel/air mixture would be flowing into the cylinder. This is a perfect recipe for flash fires.
Also, i am pretty certain that the engine stalled due to a completely seperate issue to the fire. Mainly due to all the ignition wiring still being fine (heat shielded) and all wires still show connectivity.
I am willing to put the stall down to freak wiring stuff which i was having issues with up until 5mins before i hit the track.
In response to your last post, the engine would NOT be required to be completely stopped for the original theory to work, it would merely need to be at redline with the throttle open (in this case jammed). The long duration of the cams would easily allow for both intake and exhaust valves to be open when the fuel hit the hot extractors. Assuming it ignited there it would be quite easy for the mixture to propogate back out to the intake, as that is the closest supply of fresh oxygen.
And as above, given that all the ignition wiring is fine, and only part of the injector wiring is cooked (read: wouldnt cause it to stall) there is no fire-related reason for it to have stalled.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Sat, 30 April 2005 12:16
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Matt ae86
I'd have thought anyone who uses,or plans to use,a similar set up would care for the simple reason that it might help save them a similar or worse experience.Pity I came across as Sherlock Holmes,but I must admit to having some trouble finding the logic in what I was reading & that may be why I had the audacity to ask some questions.I hate seeing this sort of thing happen to any engine. So that means I cared for what happened to Takai's engine too.
emmac.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Sat, 30 April 2005 13:13
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Fair enough. But I only had to read takai's sentences threw twice and I understood what he ment. Also, takai is giving enough information out as it is and this is turning into a good QUAD throttle thread as to what filters are good etc. Carry on.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 03 May 2005 11:40
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Ok, i pulled apart the intake manifold yesterday, and pulled some data from the minimal datalogging which was stored.
From the scorch marks in the intake manifold (and small amount of soot) the fire started in cylinder 4, which seems to make sense seeing as it had the least amount of air flowing into it (filter sandwiched against brake booster and clutch master), and therefore probably the highest intake temp let alone propensity to backfire.
In addition the fire was going for a mere 1s (according to the change in temp recorded by the temp sensor, so maybe slightly more due to sampling speed) before the engine stalled (can see the voltage drop). However, the ECU was still getting a CAS signal just after the engine stopped (for 4-5 seconds) so im guessing that it may have been a complete lack of spark. I havnt had a chance to find the culprit of this yet, but im betting on either a dodgy connector, or the coil failing (again). Ive already had one coil fail, while we were dyno tuning the car, so that is high up on the agenda to check.
I think thats about all i could figure out from the 10s of onboard logging i could get off the Haltech. Wish i had had the laptop hooked up so it could store it all, just glad that there seemed to be that much in the memory buffer.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Wed, 04 May 2005 15:05
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pics of shielding.
note the space between the brakebooster and the angle of intake runners to the head (sorry for the quality, but i took a digicam of a magazine)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 16 May 2005 13:39
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I've tried lighting some of that k&n Oil on a piece of metal and yeah it doesn't do shit which is suprising, it just bubbled...
Wonder why the socks catch on fire? what is used on them?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 16 May 2005 14:10
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The main thing is that the foam filter on the socks is aerated due to being an open celled foam. Foam like that burns really easily.
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 17 May 2005 10:24
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Air filter foam does not support combustion.It does not burn, flame, flare or smoulder.If you hold a flame to it, it will melt.That's all.Take the flame away & it stops melting.If the air filter foam you are using reacts differently it is not the correct foam for the job.
emmac.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 17 May 2005 10:27
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Well the ones i had (unifilter) certainly combusted well. I lit part of one which was leftover afterwards and it went up too.
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Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Fri, 27 May 2005 22:34
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could that have been from it having fuel on it?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Sat, 28 May 2005 00:21
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Quite possibly. Currently i dont have the time, money, or inclination to test another set so ill leave that up to someone else to find out.
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Sun, 12 June 2005 22:56
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you could get one of these
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Mon, 13 June 2005 00:55
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I looked at that, but i dont think it is going to be what i want. Ill settle for a custom one
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 14 June 2005 01:48
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There is some cool stuff on that site. I like the 4age carb adapter manifolds.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 02 August 2005 11:23
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no sticky intake valves?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Why quads should be boxed (Lessons learnt at Mallala)
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Tue, 02 August 2005 12:11
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Nope, freshly rebuilt head, and i made sure i didnt screw anything up.
Im 99.9% sure that it was due to one of the bolts snapping in the exhaust, and the other rattling loose as a results (at the end of the manifold). And possibly the throttle jamming open.
When i actuate the throttle by hand it jams up maybe 20% of the time, so thats a possibility.
However the following are most defiantely not:
- Leaky Injectors
- Sticky Valves
- Valve Bounce
- Electrical Wiring
As all of these (or whats left) checked out fine.
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