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Registered:
November 2002
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ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 03:40
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Lets take a couple of scenarios:
The 1G-GTE engine in the GZ20 Soarer and GA70 Supra, and for the sake of this example, lets say that the ECU's for each model have a different part number.
And, the 1UZ-FE is found in the Crown, Mark II and LS400 to name but a few. Again the ECU is a different part number for each different model. Disregard separate auto computers here.
Now, take the same engine at the same period of time, across these models, so we are looking at, lets say, 1990 for example....
Would the mapping (fuel/ignition tables) be the same for the same engine, at the same period in time ? I know that the ECU would do different functions depending on the model, hence the different part numbers, but would it still drive the engine OK, thru all its operating parameters and rev range ?
Could you, for example, use a 1G-GTE Soarer ECU on a 1G-GTE Supra with no ill effects ? Or is it likely to default into limp home/run rich mode as an input from a sensor is not what it is expecting ?
I would like to know if you can effectively use a 'generic' ECU, say like one that says '4A-GZ' across all models (pins outs not withstanding) that ever came fitted with a 4A-GZE ? Or do you have to be particular about it and get the correct ECU to match the engine you have, from the original car that it came from ?
Your advice is appreciated.
Thanks.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 04:45
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Given that pinouts are the same, and all accessories are the same, it should be fine.
Things at are likely to differ across models, are the AFM, injectors (resistance/size), even cams in some stage, headers/turbos are likely to differ too.
Some motors have TVIS (supra 7mge's do, cressida 7mge's don't)
All this can affect the fuel/timing maps.
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Registered:
November 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:11
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The chances of an AFM being different for a given GEN motor, are slim.
If the part number is different, then the difference is *normally* in the bracket.
ie Supra 5mge's AFM has a different part number to the Cressida's 5mge.
But the motor, sensors, etc etc are all the same, so its down to the bracketry.
Also, have you checked for simple things?
Like whats the fuel pressure in the rail? in the return line?
Maybe you have a bent return line? or a stuffed fuel pressure regulator?
Maybe the o2 sensor is stuffed?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:14
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bent return line makes an ugly noise and is fairly easy to pick - as anyone who's been in my car can attest to.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:27
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I will look at all the fuel system components and lines and see if there is a problem in there, as well as the O2 sensor, that was bent in transit when the motor was shipped over.
Thanks CrUZsida and draven for your input.
CrUZsida - noted about the AFM bracketry mounting differences leading to different part numbers and not the AFM internals for the same GEN engines, themselves.
Appreciated.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:48
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if the O2 sensor was bent at some point, that's the first thing I'd check out! most cars, if the o2 sensor is fuggered (or the wiring is crushed, which is also possible in your case) will run ugly rich.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 05:50
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When I did my 5M-E ECU Swap, idealy I should have changed the AFM which was matched up with the ECU as my Fuel Economy went through the roof, so, I got another ECU and AFM from another MA61 and the fuel economy improved (not by much but a little more bareable).
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 06:00
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draven,
You may have found the problem, the sensor casing was bent but the seal still appeared to be OK, so I left it at that. I have another O2 sensor in the garage so I might try that unit instead.
If it is fuggered or wires crushed, will it throw an error code on the check engine light ?
ZZT231,
Point taken that I should always attempt to match the ECU and AFM. Have you taken the car to a dyno and had it tuned across the rev range with a gas sniffer up its bum ? That last final adjustment at the AFM may come from there......
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 06:06
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| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 27 April 2005 14:00 |
If it is fuggered or wires crushed, will it throw an error code on the check engine light ?
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Maybe.
When I incorrectly wired something, I had the o2 sensor going straight to ground, ie, it was doing nothing.
Over the course of driving the car for a week or 2, the CEL was chucked twice, and only under certain conditions would it come on.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 06:11
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Well, this supports what I have at present, no CEL codes but running rich (and a bent 02 sensor from transit damage).
Methinks I should try the spare 02 sensor and go for a drive....
Thanks.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 06:43
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| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 27 April 2005 16:00 |
ZZT231,
Point taken that I should always attempt to match the ECU and AFM. Have you taken the car to a dyno and had it tuned across the rev range with a gas sniffer up its bum ? That last final adjustment at the AFM may come from there...
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I'm not brave enough to put my 5M-E on the dyno as it may go bang on me as the car is worse then porcelain as everytime I have to the bank, the Bank Manager is happy to see me  ...
Seriously though try match up the ECU with the AFM and see how it behaves.
Cheers.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Wed, 27 April 2005 06:54
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Thanks mate, I will try and do exactly that.
Cheers.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 03:44
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the cel will only light up if the ecu reads an out of limits reading.
Think of it like a low oil pressure light. You may have low oil volume for months before triggering the pressure light. That doesn't mean your motor is in good health though.
You may have a dicky o2 sensor or temp sensor or both. These could cause it to run rich but they may still be within the ecu limits.
Also the engine packages for each car vary with exhaust, inlet tuneing, cams etc depending on the vehicle weight, performance and packaging restrictions. Hence fuel and ignition mapping will vary for individual models.
Point in case, I am currently running a gen2 long block with gen3 everything else. because the cams are different, the ecu will quite happily let it run with 19psi boost. Now I don't think Toyota would have considered that a "durable" limit for a gen2 motor. With the Gen3 block, the same ecu would only support 16psi before screaming help.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 04:21
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Thanks gold 28,
I was tending to think that the sensors just operate like a switch and not that they can fail slowly over time / degrade and cause problems like the ones I am having now.
I will scratch around and dig up some resistence values for these sensors and see what the multi-meter can tell me...
Cheers,
Mitch.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 08:34
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just remember mix and m,atchin might work sometimes but other times its a fukin headache
why not just spend the extra money and get the right part or
get a complete set
it shits me sometimes i go to diagnose a problem and the stupid idiot has bout the en gine from one mob
the ecu from another mod
the wiring from another place
for fuk sake just spend the extra cash and buy a complete set
unfortunately everyone tries to save money and about 40% of the people who try to do it cheap get major problems in the end
this is just what i come across day in and day out
then they wonder why it costs so much to diagnose or to fix the prob
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 08:38
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Problem is sideshow, that 1GGZE stuff isn't very common.
I'm sure if Mitch was offered a matching loom, ecu, afm he'd take it, but you just can't find the stuff.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 09:42
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i understand where everyone is comin from but when u have to work on stuff like this often its very annoying
i have come across 1ggzes
the best thing to do here is
get someone with a complete kit or goto importers with a comlete
kit
and write down all the part numbers of ecu
air flow
coils ignitors dizzy etc
u have to draw the line somewhere wherether u fuk with iot for 1 year or bit the bullet
like some other guys on here driving an auto but manually chanigin for over 1 year this has been a prob
alot of people would rather put up wth a prob rather than get it profeesionally fixed or spend abit more and do it properly
i have grown up on races cars and rally cars so u always do things the dearer way
if i were you i would put an aftermarket ecu rather than mix and matching stuff
thats if u cant get the correct gear
i tell people that say yr car runs 80% right
that 20% of not right could be costing u wear on parts or wasted fuel
over 2 to 5 yrs of this the money u save on fuel u could afford to fix it right
just think about how long u plan to have the car
if its over 2 or 4 yrs then i say fix it right
if u have to spend the money then spend it
if u look t it over 4 yr period its not too much
these days if people want to me to half a job or a dodgey job i send em elsewhere
its just not worth it
id rather work with customers that want the whole job done
then u have no hassles
but mitch if u are havin probs gettin part nmbers
sss has a 1ggze last time i was there
im sure if i ask nicely they would let me write down some part nuimbers for u
this way u can compare what u have
maybe even sell what u have then buy a complete set
in the end the headaches it causes are not worth it
u have to bite the bullet
i know this sounds bit harsh but i have to put up with it alot
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 14:38
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Sideshow Part 1:
I agree that mix n match is not preferred and I have always wanted to have the right gear for that engine.
I'm more than happy to spend any money to get the right part and I will do that when/if it becomes available.
I did buy the lot - engine, loom, ECU and AFM all from the one place.
I'm not trying to save money, I want a car that works correctly.....and I don't have a problem with diagnostic costs.
Peewee Intermission:
Thanks for jumping in here, and yes, if/when I can buy the complete set of anything, I always do. Doing it right is my priority here, over the costs.
Sideshow Part 2:
I have already got the part numbers to ensure I have the complete system and I will bite any bullet right now to fix this problem. I want to fix it right and fix it properly.
I'm not one to muck around which is why I looked at flying you over to Perth last year (on my frequent flyer points) to work on my car.
Thanks for the offer to get the part numbers from SSS, I appreciate it. Like I said, I have all the numbers I need. I have also just bought the last spare 1GGZE ECU from SSS, last week. It is the next ECU in the series after the one that matches my motor, but at least its for a Crown and not a Mark 2, and the AFM is now matched to this new ECU. I have plugged this new ECU in and my problem still remains.....
Not taken this harshly Sideshow, I think I understand a little more of what you have to put up with every day. Thank you again for those long and detailed PM's you sent me last week to help me try and trace the problem, I could not find it but you taught me a lot more about my car and fault finding in general.
Cheers,
Mitch.
[Updated on: Fri, 29 April 2005 14:39]
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Fri, 29 April 2005 16:59
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when it comes to "mix and match" engine electrics, its generally best to avoid doing so with a air flow metered engine....
Take the example of good old Joe here in Sydney. For ages he had a nice running 2tgeu with factory electronics (i know its analogue efi, but this is a good example).
HOWEVER - he too was always runnning a little rich and had shithouse fuel economy. An experienced person suggested that perhaps his AFM and ECU were not from the ONE CAR (not just same model car, but the one singular car). Indeed this was true as Joe was given an ECU and AFM off a shelf which were just loose spares.
Joe hunted and eventually found and ECU and AFM together on a wreck and thus bought the pair, knowing that they were from the one car and thus matched from factory. Plug them in and HEY PRESTO!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
The point here is that the ecu was specifically tuned to that individual AFM which cam with the car - Toyota had matched the two to be perfect.
I feel this may still be the case with the 1ggze, as we are talking about a device which relies upon movement to create a feedback signal - not a solid state device which can give signal accuracy from one device to the next with negligable to zero error rates. Do you follow me so far??
Because the AFM relies on a spring with a set tension, no two AFMs can be assured to be identical in signal response - as the spring rate cannot be consistent throughout a production run.... they will be close, but not THE SAME.
THis might sound pedantic, but it's something that makes sense to me... and it is 2:50am.
So yeah... perhaps the signal from the AFM is lower for a given air flow rate than what the ECU is expecting... thus the ECU is adding more fuel than there is air to burn it in a balanced mix.
now as for GENERALISING the compatibility of toyota ECUs... its not something that you can generalise the answer to.
WIth MAP sensor engines such as the 4age's and 1jz-gte's... yes mix'n'match can be done just fine to an extent - so long as the ECU is from the same generation engine and the supporting electronics are compatible.
eg. AE101 smallport gze ecu can run an AE92 smallport gze engine no worries (a couple of pinouts different tho).
a JZX81 ecu can run a JZA70 engine
etc....
i have typed too much now.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Sat, 30 April 2005 00:06
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Good point Witzl, I understand what you are saying here.
Would the last bit of fine tuning Toyota do at the factory to get the AFM to 'match' the ECU be the AFM air bypass screw which they adjust with a sniffer up the bum and then stamp the depth measurement on the AFM body ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Sat, 30 April 2005 01:22
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| ra23celica wrote on Sat, 30 April 2005 08:06 |
Would the last bit of fine tuning Toyota do at the factory to get the AFM to 'match' the ECU be the AFM air bypass screw which they adjust with a sniffer up the bum and then stamp the depth measurement on the AFM body ?
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I highly doubt it.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Sat, 30 April 2005 02:23
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no i doubt toyota would do it that way... the bypass screw varies the output of the AFM in a non-linear fashion and thus is nowhere near ideal for matching the AFM to the ECU...
what they would more than likely have done is do a production run of the AFMs and test the airflow reponse feedback voltage curves of that batch. No doubt they would all be very similar coming from the one production run and thus toyota would then match that response in their ECU tune....
well that is my theory anyway, and it makes sense to me!!
see if you can borrow a matched AFM and ECU from somewhere and test it??
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: ECU Compatibility across models ? Tech advice needed.
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Sat, 30 April 2005 05:47
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Thanks guys.
I can see the logic you have explained here.
I am already searching for a matching ECU, e-mails and phone calls to every reputable wrecker in Australia and NZ, and a wanted ad on this forum as well.
Cheers,
Mitch.
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