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I supported Toymods
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Epping, Sydney
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May 2002
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RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 04:50
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ok, I have a friend who's known for his wild stories, exaggerations, and the like. His latest claim is that an RB26DETT puts out more power at the fly than a vvti 2JZ-GTE.
I personally dont think this is right... but could someone give me some backup here before I go making a fool of myself (because on the odd occasion, his wild stories are in fact true).
he also claims the RB26 is easier to mod, and makes more HP at high level modding, but that's another kettle of fish.
I know the skyline will almost always win in a 1/4 mile drag, but that's not what the debate is about.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 05:03
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Both engines have a quoted power output of 280ps. Most people accept that the actual power output is higher than this, but unless you put both engines on the same engine dyno on the same day, it's little more than speculation. However, if I had to bet on it I'd place money on the 2JZ simply because it has a significantly larger swept volume.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 05:04
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the 280ps figure is crap.
apparently the vvti 2jz puts out 350hp at the flywheel
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 05:11
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I've heard the same rumours, but I've yet to see an actual dyno printout. Have you?
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I supported Toymods
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Epping, Sydney
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 05:13
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I dont know anybody with a stock 2JZ 
my friend is buying one that's mostly stock, but it'll be hard to convince him to go for a flywheel dyno
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I supported Toymods
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Epping, Sydney
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 05:19
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hey, on that note... if you put the gtr on a rear wheel dyno (by pulling the 4wd out) would you get a comparable rwhp figure to the supra?
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 06:54
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Put both engines on an engine dyno, and then in a control car and you might have an answer. Other than that, it's the speculation of 14 year old wannabes, in between wondering if Britney Spears is still a virgin.
Of course, I deem the control car to be my Corona Mk2. 
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 07:01
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pft
speculating is useless, yet still fun
kinda like arguing on the internet (I'm not going to repeat the joke that goes with that here... those of you sick enough towant to know it, probably already do)
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I supported Toymods
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Perth
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 07:18
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There was a magazine article that did this. Was an easrly 2JZGTE, but the R33 RB26DETT put out slightly more power at the wheels. The 2JZGTE had a nicer torque curve though and killed the GTR in roll-on acceleration.
The RB26 held this advantage for a bit with minor mods like exhaust and filters, mind you, was only a few kilowatts.
Once the bigger turbos were on the 2JZ started kicking arse...
I'd say the vvti version of the 2JZGTE may have the edge on the RB26DETT in the most recent versions of each...I think that Toyota made more of an improvement on it than Nissan did with GTR. Considering it'd have even more torque again, imagine by how much it'd kill the GTR in the roll-on.....
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Location:
melbourne
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June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 08:27
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wouldn't a 1jz-gte be a fairer comparison due to the 2jz having ~400cc more displacement which is gonna help increase the torque curve?
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 08:56
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I've got 3 dyno graphs coming from a Supra and Skyline on the same dyno.
Should help solve the argument 
Just firing up the scanner...
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 09:10
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1jz is ancient compared to r34 skyline
even the 2jz vvti is a few years older
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 09:11
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soarer.. could you e-mail those to me at draven@bigpond.net.au please?
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Location:
Wollongong
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 09:26
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Okay guys, not exactly the specs you were after, but they are close:
2JZ-GTE (pre 1997, non-VVTi) automatic
RB26DETT (R33) manual
First run is standard boost & cat-back system on each car:
Dyno Run 1
Second run is with 14 PSI of boost plus above configuration:
Dyno Run 2
Final run is with the 2JZ-GTE running a single T78 turbo and 1.4 bar of boost, and the RB26DETT running a pair of GT2540 turbos and 1.5 bar of boost:
Dyno Run 3
Images courtesy of HPI No.20.
Draven, images are downloadable from the above links
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 09:34
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Thats the article I meant. Would have been better if they had pegged an manual vs a manual.
There are still current versions of the 1JZGTE so I can't see how its ancient. There are still current versions of the 2JZGTE so I don't see how it makes them worse...
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Location:
Wollongong
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 09:48
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Even in these dyno runs, I would prefer the Supra (even in auto form)... just look at those curves !
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 10:40
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check out this from autospeed
http://www.autospeed.com/A_1283/page1.html
if u dont subscibe to autospeed u wont be able to read all of this but ill give you a run down
it starts like this
We'll apologise for rabbiting on in advance. But we've got to tell you, the post-1998 VVT-i version of the Supra 2JZ twin-turbo 3.0-litre six is - without doubt - the best production turbo engine we've ever driven.
The Best
Stroke it along gently and the VVT-i 2JZ-GTE six behaves as 'proper' as a top-line Mercedes. Despite having 209+ kilowatts on tap from only 3-litres, there's absolutely no hint of lumpy camshafts or an all-or-nothing turbo system. The only on-going reminder of the engine's potency is its throaty exhaust burble from out back. It sounds sensational.
then says this
On paper, the sequentially-turbocharged 3.0-litre VVT-i 2JZ-GTE is credited with a long-trunk'd 451Nm of torque at 3600 rpm; to give you a comparo, an R32 GT-R makes 355Nm, an Audi S4 twin-turbo 2.7 boosts its way to 400Nm, a Liberty B4 generates 320Nm and an Evo 6.5 kicks out 373Nm.
and ends with this
But, of course, it's the late-model Supra RZ's motorvation - the torque - that really grabs you by the shoulders. Infinitely variable inlet cam timing, DOHCs, 24-valves, EFI, air-to-air intercooling, sequential twin-turbochargers and electronic throttle control - this is one of the most sophisticated powerplants on Earth and, damn it, every hour of its development has been well worth it.
WHAT MORE CAN I SAY
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 11:29
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*hugs and kisses* soarer
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Location:
Wollongong
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 15:39
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You better be a woman Draven... or I'm really worried now
Hehehehhe
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 19:06
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well, I have photographic proof of me in a D-cup bra, sarong, and nothing else.
does that count?
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 23:02
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Err... lets just leave it there then shall we ?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Tue, 19 November 2002 23:17
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I love these arguments - thing is that both the RB26 and the 2JZGTE are good engines, but for slightly different things. The nissan is a shorter stroke, has larger cams, higher flowing heads and multi throttles - an awesome thing for pulling big revs, and resulting in big power figures. The 2JZ is square, larger capacity, later ones come with VVT and has sequential (tiny!) twin turbos - just the thing for hauling the queen mary out of the water before breakfast - yet its still a very smooth, and fairly clean revving engine. If I was to strike oil in the backyard and become a millionaire, then I would play with both engines...
The RB26 is probably a better thing for making a true race engine from, being naturally revvier and having a massive supply of parts for it. The 2JZ is probably a better thing for making a damned tough, but still friendly street car with.
Remember also that a 2JZ can be had for a helluva lot less than an RB26, with the savings on buying the thing in the first place being enough to buy one (or two) decent sized turbos to replace the horrible looking manifolds/turbos that come factory with it. Use any leftover money to fit a line locker, and buy a TM magna to fit it into, then sit back and (seriously) enjoy wasting a 300kw commodore in a very big and embarrasing way from the lights.
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 00:23
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dont forget, the big hp 3L kits for the rb26 increase bore and stroke to match exactly the dimensions of a stock 2j...
coincidence ? i think NOT !
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Toymods Board Member
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 00:50
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I don't understand the huge stroker kits for the GTRs, like mrshin was talking about it would take away its high revving nature, and you would have a top end designed for bullshit revs & a bottom end that just won't be comfy spinning so quick. Why not start with a 2J?
Also I don't think the 1J should be compared to an RB26 (even though it still comes up pretty well), the RB26 is a highly preped race motor, while the 1J is a well designed production engine. And like mrshin said, they're designed for different purposes (torque & revs).
Compare a 1J to an RB25 though, see how far nissan is left behind!
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Location:
newcastle
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June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 08:38
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how can the rb26 be a race bred engine .when if you want 600 + h.p the japs pull the guts out of them and do a full bottom end rebuild .yet they dont even look at a 1j under 750 H.p
i think this quote from powerhouse says it all
"In typical Toyota fashion, the Supra 3.0 liter in-line six is capable of withstanding large power increases without any aftermarket internal engine upgrades. One up-and-coming California tuner put it this way: "You open a Honda, you find a lightweight jewel of an engine where the components' strength is calculated to the last decimal place. The block's aluminum. Maybe you find an 11 mm stud some-where. You look in a Nissan, the corresponding stud's typically a little bigger-say 12 mm. But check out a Toyota: You'll probably find a 16. In a cast iron block, of course."
You'd think these guys at Toyota were building earth-moving equipment, when it comes to creating strong engines. Manual transmissions break before Toyota engines, even at extreme power levels.
HELL NISMO in Melbourne even told me they reckon a 1ggte bottom end is tougher than an Rb26 and the 1js are even tougher and the 2js bulletproof
The 1j makes MORE torque ,more power is smoother and has a far flatter consistent torque curve .This is comparing the two engines with say 3 inch exhaust dump pipes and an intercooler (these are basically standard street mods)
a 1j head on a flow bench flows better than a stock rb26 .
The only reason GTR's are king of the Drag strips in Japan is they are a better car when it comes to traction .And probably better on the track .But his does not reflect the capabilities of the two engines .They are almost identical yet the 1j bottom is TWICE as tough
now back to 2j vs RB26
this is a quote from autospeed 's Julian edgar (who owns a GTR)
"With a gentle launch and two people aboard, we clocked a 100 km/h time of 5.5 seconds - and well believe the data showing others getting that down into the high fours. Yes, the GT-R has run quicker times than that, but as the owner and driver (for over 50,000km) of an R32 GT-R, I know that the Supra's flexibility and punch at all rpm simply walks all over the revered Nissan."
ANd he owns an rb 26 ....It takes a big man to admit its better than own car
and again
"The 2JZ engine is the latest in ultra high performance engineering from Japan and shows a technological upgrade over the RB26DETT that propels Nissan's Skyline GT-Rs. There are strong similarities between the pair - both are straight sixes with a DOHC 24-valve head, two turbos, intercooling and of course EFI. However, Toyota's 2JZ-GTE has aced the RB26 by including VVT-i (variable valve timing) and a sophisticated sequential turbo system which improves the overall spread of boost (and therefore torque). The swept volume of the engine has also been pushed to 3 litres"
HELL the experts CAN'T be wrong
[Updated on: Wed, 20 November 2002 08:50]
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 09:29
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Woah, I wasn't saying the RB26 was better, is that what you thought? But it is built to rev pretty bloody high isn't it?
I meant to say that compared to RB series motors in general the RB26 is prepped pretty hardcore. And the GTR is 50 times more a race prepped car than any car equipped with a 1J, or a 2J for that matter. Toyota just do bloody good jobs of building engines that aren't going into their flagship road/race cars.
Bottom line (of my opinion) is that the JZ motors kick ass over RBs but it isn't really fair comparing them when Nissan have put so much effort into the '26.
Even though the JZs still come out on top.
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Location:
melbourne
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June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 10:45
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what if factor a rb30dett (turbo engine from 300zx) into the equation?
swept volume close enough to each other and compare them?
just a thought
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 10:48
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There's is no such thing as an RB30DETT, although some people put an RB26DETT head on an RB30ET block and call the hybrid an RB30DETT. It's fairly common with the VL boys these days.
The 300ZX bas a completely different engine, the VG30DETT (which is a V6, not an inline 6).
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 11:02
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VG30DETT is an unreliable troublesome POS!
poorly designed
no camparison to either of the above mentioned engines
Matt
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 11:09
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The other RB30DETT is when someone lays down $30000 for the OS Giken 3l kit...and ends up with something just like a 2JZGTE...
Only one of these has been used in Australia, and it needed to be "cleaned up" before it could be used.. 
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 12:12
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bah! i do stand corrected - was just trying to raise another point.
if the vg30 is so badly designed, how come it doesn't fall apart with high horsepowers. i've heard of them running 900hp plus.
obviously can bolt on massive turbos but if it was so badly designed wouldn't it basically just blow itself up at the sight of any huge HP figure?
sorry for steering this off track a little
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 12:15
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The amount of shit that would have to go into a 900hp VG30 is mind-boggling. I once knew someone that said, "if you own one of those and don't break the engine, you don't drive it hard enough"
A lot of 300ZX's kill their engines apparently.
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Location:
Brisbane
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 12:29
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Most of the problems with VG30DETT's can be traced to overheating, and if you look in the engine bay of a 300ZX you'll see why - it's packed in so tightly it just cooks from lack of ventilation.
The engine itself probably isn't that bad, but still not in the same league as the engines being discussed here. I don't doubt that people have got 900hp out of them, but I'm willing to bet such an engine would have a significantly shorter lifespan than a 900hp 2JZ-GTE!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 12:51
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the biggest HP figure I've seen from a VG30DETT on stock internals is tjohn's street racer zed (the guy who owns UAS). it puts out 450 or so. mind you, he's had to replace a few blown items. I've only ever seen on 900 HP zed (in oz) and that thing had so much crap hanging out the bonnet it looked like a big block. those engines are nice enough stock, although unreliable even then, but they weren't designed with mods in mind. Not like a supra, which can go 450 horsies without changing anything, and a bottom end that can take 1000
plus that's an even older engine than the 1jz.. running on ancient technlogy there
you want a good looking zed engine, have a look at the new 350z
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 12:57
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you're right norbie
I had to change a headlight globe on a zed.. there was *just* enough room to remove the old one pluis wiring, which left no room for hands! took us a full 10 mins just the get the damn thing out. getting it back in was even harder
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Location:
New Zealand
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Wed, 20 November 2002 23:33
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Just a question about those dyno graphs.
The supra is auto and the skyline is manual right, so wouldn't the gearing be very different and by using speed on the X axis you are distorting the shape of the curve. I know gearing doesn't affect horsepower like it does with torque but shouldn't the graphs show kw vs revs to give a better picture?
E.G. If both engines have similar peak kw's, but the soarer is at 110kph and the skyline is at 120kph how do you know the revs for both cars aren't the same? And if they are pulling the same revs this would make the only real difference between them the gearing.
Am I way off track or what?
Someone with a little more knowledge please enlighten me.
(I still prefer the soarer though, rwd is so much fun.....)
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I supported Toymods
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Thu, 21 November 2002 05:51
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it's not soarer, it's a 2JZ-GTE ... but you're right, I noticed the very different speeds. makes me think the 2JZ isn't at a close to 1:1 drive ratio. that would mean the curves are not really comparable
I think... me with all my expert dyno knowledge and all
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Location:
newcastle
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June 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)
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Thu, 21 November 2002 10:54
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bigworm o.k sorry i misunterstood
purple beasty
has a point the difference between manual and auto on a dyno will be different. you get torque loading with an auto and also the turbos boost slighlty harder under load and load is far more on an auto than a manual. in fact its difficult to compare the two on a dyno you would simply pick the gear with the highest power for both probably 2nd for the auto and 3rd for the manual would be fair.So torque will look fatter with an auto on a dyno
so you really cant compare the either curve(torque/power)
either way peak power is actually less with an auto than a manual so on a dyno an auto can look worse .add around 6.5 % to a toyota auto to get a toyota manual peak power figure
having the same peak power but different MPH can simply mean a weight difference
you can calculate h.p from terminal speed
use this formula
Calculate HP From MPH and Weight
HP = (((MPH / 234)^3) * Weight)
this is based on 100% aerodynamic efficiency( a top fuel dragster is probably 95%).
a Supra or GTR are almost the same with about 80% efficiency so multiply the final result by 0.8
make sure you enter weight in pounds to convert Kg to pounds multiply kg by 2.2 (make sur you add the driver weight)
so for example the cressida has a terminal speed of about 108 MPH weighs 1620 kg( with my skinny body on board ) so power is (by this formula) 272 rwhp on a dyno it usually gets 274 so this is quite accurate
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
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May 2002
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Re: RB26DETT (skyline) VS vvti 2JZ-GTE (mkIV supra)