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2TG/4AG part 2
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Sat, 01 June 2002 23:37
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Starting a new thread, the other one takes too long to load up.
"The inlet size is only 44.5mm"
Ta. I haven't fiddled with one for over ten years ... 
That makes the curtain area for the valve at 10.27mm lift 14.36²cm, or very much the same as the stock 4AG.
"... with an unmodified Squish area. Hence I can't see it causing any N/A Issues."
From looking at a lot of different engines, naturally aspirated ones seem to work best with good squish areas and boosted engine don't. Chamber shape is also important, and again that's important as the shape of the 4AG chamber is far smoother generally.
"Bill, 2 Valves verses 4 valves is not in contention ! 4 Valves wins hands down. It is 2TG verses 4AGE that is being discussed."
That's an inherant part of the difference and can't be waved off. If they both had two valve or both had four valve heads then there'd be little else to compare.
"Whilst your 3K and 3SGE comparisons are interesting they are not really relevant to this discussion."
I think it is, because it demonstrates quite clearly the difference between an old push-rod two valve engine compared to a good four valve. And that's the basically the main difference between a 2TG and a 4AG.
"And yes a 3SGE s#*ts on both engines from a great height !
My point exactly, when you bring into the comparison a bored and stroked 2TG.
"230hp from your next street engine ?? Would be very curious to see this considering a Formula Atlantic full race engine peaks at 242HP !!"
Yep, that's right. The FA boys have a few restrictions that I don't have to follow, as I can make the engine as I please. The computer simulation that I use has so far shown itself to be pretty accurate. Here's the simmed run of the new engine.
* Note that I'm not going to be using a 4AG head for that engine, I've found something better that bolts onto a 4AG block.
"As for stipulating 1600cc for a 2TG. I hardly think that is a reasonable restriction."
Well, it is. As I wrote before if you want to compare the two engines then they have to be the same size. Period. If you want to make it an 1800cc, then let's compare a good 7AG. If you want to make it a 1915cc 2TG (89 x 77) then to be fair you'd have to compare it with a 1998cc 3SGE. And in every case we both know which type of engine will make more HP and torque for its size.
"Just because the 4AGE can't be made that big doesn't mean we should discount the point. Oh and as for the 7AGE bottom end being used it is common knowledge that the 7A rods are rather unreliable and the 7A crank does not like to Rev. (Yes I do have 4AGE experience)"
The bigget 4AG I've heard of is about 1880cc, using a specially made stroker crank. (83 x 87 I think) That engine revs to 8000rpm no probs apparently. Seems like pretty good revs to me.
True enough 7A rods aren't very good, but it's not exactly intended to be a performance engine. There's a couple of threads on those two subjects on the www.club4ag.com forums. The stroker cranks are available from either www.trs-usa.com or Steven Gunter in Jamaica. I haven't followed the 7A rod discussion, but I think there was mention of being able to use a Honda rod instead.
"As for "No reason" to pick a 2TG over a 4AGE. How about things like Ease and cost of install depending on Vehicle. Considering that a large percentage of cars on these forums run an A series or T series Block from factory its an important consideration."
Fair 'nuf. Though about the only car like that would be the early Celica's, as for all of the other cars you can get a crossmember that has the 4AG bolt-in. It's also not very hard to cut off the mounts of a 4AG crossmember and weld them to a T crossmember. Four cuts and four welds.
Either that or make up new mounts for the engine to the rubber buffers, like we did for my Starlet. Took a little planning, but it wasn't that hard in the end.
"Bill, In summary I think it would be fair to say this. In stock form the 2 engines are all but equal in performanc
Yep, I wrote that before.
"Lets be honest, What the 2TG lacks in Head flow or Intake Velocity it compensates for in Cubic Capacity. !! Thats why in either Stock or Race form they are still matched pretty even."
No it doesn't. Again, if you want to compare apples with oranges, how about I get a 2.5 litre quad-cam V-6 and race a 1915cc 2TG. Take a wild guess as to which one would win?
Okay, to the costs.
Again assuming that you own, say, a small port engine.
4AGE head.
Porting like my head has cost me about $300. You can use stock valves and springs. My cams cost me $400.
Bottom end
Don't need forged pistons, the stock ones are fine for 8000rpm. Not sure how much they are stock, but I'd guess about $800 or so. My forged pistons cost me $950 though.
Block cleaning and honing, say, $100.
Gasket set at most $200 (thats a guess)
New belt $40
New bearings $150
Balancing, if needed, maybe $150. (That's what mine cost)
New rod bolts - Every engine needs new bolts every time - Guessing about $80 ... ?
Extra's that the 4AG will need -
Individual runner manifold - Mine cost $20 in materials and maybe $50 in welding and machining. I think you can buy a manifold like that off the self for about $200 odd.
Then you have to decide whether to keep EFI or go for Webers or the like. If you have a pair of Weber hanging around that's the only reason you'd want to use them.
There's a guy in the US (JSPECPERORMANCE from the club4ag forums) that swears blind that you can use a small port computer with quad throttles. So that might be a very cheap way of keeping EFI on the engine.
For throttle bodies, you can either gut the Webers/Mikuni's/Dellorto's (probably the best thing for them) and use them as throttle bodies, or use a 20v set like I have. Paid $250 for mine.
Add an alloy flywheel at $450, slotted cam pulleys at ~$200.
That totals about $3200, but there would invariably be other little things that would up the cost. It too would put out about 180hp, but have less torque as it's a 1600cc compared to a 1770cc one. You can get (well I did anyway) a 7AF for about $850. I haven't pulled mine apart to look at the rods but I think if you kept the revs down to about 7500rpm it wouldn't be a bother. (just guessing here though) That engine would also make about 180hp due to the lesser revs but more capacity, and also have at least 160ft-lbs of torque if done properly.
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Location:
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Club Member
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sydney
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Sun, 02 June 2002 00:24
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Ive also heard of using the Red top computer with T/B's with no worries, although Ive never seen it work
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Club President
I supported Toymods
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Location:
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Sun, 02 June 2002 22:52
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"I think your missing the point a little. Apples with apples is the comparison. And in this case 1 apple is a 4AGE the other is a 2TG. ! If one is capable of becoming a 1940cc Apple and the other isn't then thats just to bad ! Do you see me winging because the 2TG only has 2 Valves ? I am comparing each engine on its merits and the simple fact is a HUGE merit of the 2TG is its ability to be increased in Capacity."
Look, Rod, it's really not hard to understand!!!
I have given examples of 1600 Vs 1600, 1800 vs 1800, 2000 odd vs 2000 odd, and yet you keep on trying to compare something with a very different capacity.
I've already shown you how to make the 4AGE 1800 like a stroked 2TG - just like you have - and also (if for some strange reason you wanted to spend the money) really stretch it out to nearly 1900cc like a bored & stroked 2TG.
A quick tip for the reading impared - Just like a 4AG isn't a 4AG witha 7A crank (it's now a 7AG), a 2TG isn't a 2TG with a 3T crank, it's a 3TG. Again, that's really easy to understand.
So this is why -
"Still since your clutching at 3SGE's and Quad Cam V6's to compare I guess you just won't accept a relevant comarison. I can't spell it out any cleareer so I'll just leave it to each individual to judge for themselves."
- I'm doing exactly the same as you, in that I'm comparing a bigger engine with a smaller one. Again, it's really not that hard to understand.
"The projection for you intended new 4AGE build looks good. I'll Be curious to see how it actually comes up and how Grumpy it is on the street. From looking over your web site I would suggest that you and I both have a reasonably high tollerance for what we would personally consider Streetable. I know if I ever manage to get to it my next 2TG build will be along the lines of a competetive Rally set up and to me seems quite streetable."
I didn't think the phrase "drives like a normal car" was hard to understand either.
[Updated on: Sun, 02 June 2002 22:57]
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I supported Toymods
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 Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 00:08
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Dear Guys, 
Well I am getting pretty dizzy  with this coversation going back and forth and around and around.
Bill, your car sounds so very impressive  I would be very interested to see an actual Dyno reading for your car not a computer simulation.
I think it would be great if you were able to attend both the Weight Watchers Cruise and the Dyno Day so that we all can see the tremendous power of this engine for ourselves. I would gladly relinquish my title to you if the Dyno says even remotely what you claim.
I do not doubt the capabilities of either engine - even though obviously my personal preference is for the 2TG.
This discussion started with the stating of facts (from what I understand, came directly from toyota). I am not saying that what you are saying is not factual, I would just like to see some supporting evidence from the manufacturer.
Well, this is just my opinion and no disrespect is intended.
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Club President
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 03:45
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Too right PLEASE don't add anything else!
Just curious, do you actually know what comparing apples with apples means?
I'll write it again, since you obvious missed it in plain English - Ask Haydn MR20V how the car goes and if it behaves much like a normal road road.
Is that simple enough?
Then there's - "I assume if I cough and it sounds like I said "Bullshit" you will also get my meaning"
Then a few lines later - "Not Questioning your word just making a statement"
Well, I won't beat around the bush.
You're an idiot.
Shut up.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 04:32
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I do not wish to dispute either of your knowledge but i have to agree that Rod put down a valid comparisson at the start as a basis for guys to work off when deciding which engine to use. I really enjoy when Rod puts these type posts up as they give you REAL power and torques to compare,and he also adds other points which he sees as relevant! Bill i think you just dont want to admit that the dinosaur engine has alot on the 4AG ,perhaps because you have put alot of time and effort into your engine however the FACTS are there on the net if you do a search. I believe that if one engine is able to be safely increased in capacity more than another then it is that engine which is greater in that respect, and i think that is all Rod is trying to get across!!!!!
Another thing, Rod has spent probobly the most time and money on his car in this whole forum (TA22 Celica) and i think what he has is nothing short of superb! I also notice that after all his countless hours of research he has REMOVED his 4AG and is going back to a T series engine. I think for Rod to do that he must have justified it to himself that a T series has more potential than a 4A series(and to me that is all that matters)
Rod please dont lose faith cause some wanker wants to hang shit. You are one of the people i respect most in the club due to your knowledge and helpfullness, and i hope you arent swayed by this obviously narrow minded person.
Bill take your blinkers off!!!
Thats my $0.02 worth! Jamie
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Club President
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 05:15
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Jamie,
Thanks for that mate. I'm not sure I'm quite that good but I appreciate it.
Before this post took a rather unnecessary turn we had covered a fair bit so I just wanted to Summarize a little.
Head
4AGE has better Valve design - 4 Valves is better than 2
2TG has Superior Cam to Valve set up - Shim Under is far better than shim over.
Head flow - Smallport 4AGE has higher head velocity.
Lift - 2TG is capable of greater lift due to superior Shim placement.
Squish Area - Limited knowledge all figures suggest it is adequate in both.
Cams - 2TG has larger factory and is able to support larger cams than a 4AGE.
Bottom End
Blocks - Both blocks are more than up to strength requirements
Capacity - 2TG has far greater scope for increased capacity
Pistons - 4AGE has higher compression from factory.
Compression - Both engines can support compression ratio's past the point of regular Pump fuel
Rods - Both vehicles stock Rods are capable of exceding the factory Redline.
Crank - Both stock cranks have excellent reving capabilities.
weight - the 4AGE is lighter than a 2TG
Thats about where we got to in cut and dried statements.
Of course there are always a whole heaps of other things to consider. Fuel consuption, Parts availablity etc.
I have had not problem with parts for either engine and Fuel consumption on Tinas is around 10k's to a litre.
Biggest thing to consider for me is ease of install ! Both engines Mod easily in the engine mounts department but if you don't have to why do it.
What does all that mean... The simple fact is both engines have a pretty even starting point and depending on what you want from them should be able to yeild satisfactory results.
Both engines are capable of small and large Budget upgrades. At the end of the day it really comes down to application.
Hopefully that helps clear some of the Myths around both engines.
Regards,
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 05:59
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Well this degenerated in true Bill Sherwood fashion didn't it! 
Bill just for the record, Rod knows his sh#t. He never states any technical information that is not correct or researched, I should know I am his wife. 
You never did respond to my post, but then again actually appearing at an event and proving your claims is probably out of character for you, we all know what a busy life you lead. 
As for stooping to the name calling - in my humble opinion - you are the idiot here. Just because someone doesn't bow to the self proclaimed guru of 4AGE's doesn't mean he is the idiot - may a self examination in the mirror would solve this for you.
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Toymods Board Member
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Club Member
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Location:
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 09:22
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Well, I thought by writing things in simple sentences that no-one could possibly stuff it up, mis-quote me, or just make stuff up.
Yet, we have some champions here.
Teenz first.
"Bill, your car sounds so very impressive I would be very interested to see an actual Dyno reading for your car not a computer simulation."
It has been on a chassis dyno, at Chiptorque last week. It made 84kW but I know that the engine makes more than that. Reasons for this are - I have had the car with the old engine in it on another dyno and I made more power. This is the usual diferences between dyno's, and I'm sure that if I took the car to another one I'd get more like 100kW or so. I also have checked the injector duty cycle and from that they are flowing for for 185hp. This backs up the sim dyno program pretty well, as does the Chiptorque dyno run, as the HP curve followed the simmed one almost exactly. It's also backed up by the fact that it's at least as fast as a WRX in a straight line, possibly not too far of an Sti. How do I know this? Because we've got a WRX that has a kit on it that takes it to STi specs. I know what speed I can get up to on certain straights near my place, and the Sprinter is not very far behind at all.
"I think it would be great if you were able to attend both the Weight Watchers Cruise and the Dyno Day so that we all can see the tremendous power of this engine for ourselves. I would gladly relinquish my title to you if the Dyno says even remotely what you claim."
I have no plans to drive to Sydney again in the future so that's not going to happen. And I see that you've yet again chosen to ignore my twice posting that a local member(s) can back up what I say. At no point did I say or write "tremendous power". Thanks for strongly inferring that I'm lying, it gives you so much credibility.
Not.
"I would just like to see some supporting evidence from the manufacturer."
So who was first to come up with actual valve sizes, etc?
"Well this degenerated in true Bill Sherwood fashion didn't it!"
If you mean me being intollerant of people coming up with utter rubbish and unable to read plain English, then yes, that's me. I've made it as easy as I can to understand, several times, yet Rod can't get it through his head that a different engine is a different engine. And if you change a 4AG to match a stroked 2TG then that's fair. It's the sort of knuckle-dragging mentality I'd expect from some of the V-8 loving/4 cyl hating crowd.
"Bill just for the record, Rod knows his sh#t. He never states any technical information that is not correct or researched."
He hasn't presented any incorrect information here, he just can't understand the apples vs apples concept! I've got no problem with the stuff he's written here, it's fine.
"You never did respond to my post, but then again actually appearing at an event and proving your claims is probably out of character for you, we all know what a busy life you lead."
Excuse me?
Attempting to be a sarcastic smartarse doesn't work if you don't know what you're talking about. I've been rallying on & off since 1984, circuit racing since 1990 and in circuit racing I've run at my classes National championships a number of times and always finished in the top three places. I've qualifed on pole for the Nationals twice, and also beaten professional racing drivers (Terry Sheid) in a faster car then mine. (Mallock Mk31)
So yes I do know a little about turning up to an event thank you very much.
"As for stooping to the name calling - in my humble opinion - you are the idiot here. Just because someone doesn't bow to the self proclaimed guru of 4AGE's doesn't mean he is the idiot - may a self examination in the mirror would solve this for you."
So Rod saying I was talking bullshit is okay then? ("I assume if I cough and it sounds like I said "Bullshit" you will also get my meaning." Being a hypocrite is not okay with me. I called him an idiot for the simple reason that he cannot understand the basic principle of apples vs apples. And having this explained to him a number of times. And when I did give an equal 4AG to compare apples-with-apples with a stroked 2TG then that was either ignored or called not fair. Un-friggen-believeable.
And to take the cake you say "the self proclaimed guru of 4AGE's" ... I don't know WTF drugs you are on, but at no point on any forum on any media or in any conversation or by any other means have I ever said that. Stop making stuff up!
The problem with Rod is that he conveniently ignores the stuff he doesn't want to see. Like the 7A crank. Like the oversize pistons. Like comparing engines in the same manner as he has. What would you call that?
Rod.
"2TG has Superior Cam to Valve set up - Shim Under is far better than shim over."
Ageed, but as I already explained it isn't important for a road engine as the 4AG doesn't need as large a cam. For a race engine sure, and it adds about $1000 to the cost, roughly.
"Squish Area - Limited knowledge all figures suggest it is adequate in both."
I've also explain this before as well. The 4AG has good squish areas, the 2TG has none. (though it's been a while since I've seen one, I may well be wrong. From memory they're a plain hemispherical chamber)
"Capacity - 2TG has far greater scope for increased capacity"
As I wrote before, and yet again is conveniently ignored, using exactly the same way that a 2TG turns into a 3TG, ie, the bigger crank, you can take a 4AGE based engine out to nearly 1900cc's, which is not a lot smaller than a bored and stroked 2TG. Rod claims that a 2TG is still a 2TG because that's what written on the side of the block. What about a 3T with a 2T crank? Does the distorted logic work both ways?
Other stuff that I thought of today -
- Oil system.
The 4AGE has a much better oil pump system, ie the front of the crank arrangment. They also have much better sump designs, and also have a factory windage tray that seems to work quite well. The oil filter cost a lot more though.
- Water system.
The 4AG has the thermostat comtrolling the water going into the block, and so it'll get up to temperature much faster and also maintain that temperature with much greater consistancy.
- Cam drive system
Again the 4AG is easier to live with, as they have a belt drive (easy to keep an eye on with mine at least as I don't run a cover) and you can run slotted pulleys to alter the cam timing in less than a minute or two.
- Inlet manifolds.
Apart from the 20v ones, the 16v ones are rubbish. The 2TG has a big advantage here.
MrTA22
".. increased in capacity more than another then it is that engine which is greater in that respect ..."
Once again I have to say that I have already written how easily a 4AG can be made bigger. Don't read half of what's written there to suit yourself.
"Bill take your blinkers off!!!"
Excuse me, I've owned both types of engine so I've got a pretty good idea. Rod also admits that a four valve engine is better than a two valve, so you are contradicting yourself there in that Rod is agreeing with me on that part, yet you ignore that.
Havoc
'How the bloody hell do you compare a 3K to a 3SGE??? What I assume you are saying is that the 3K is the 2TG and the 4AG is the 3SGE... as far as comparing the 2 motors... Sorry Bill... but that is pathetic.."
It is pathetic because I never wrote that.
Get your facts straight - I was back to comparing apples with apples again to make it remotely fair. I mentioned my 1300cc 3K to compare it with my 1300cc Suzuki. I mentioned the 1998cc to compare with a 1950cc or so 2TG. Rod still wanted to run a mis-match for some reason, so I did exactly the same thing, ie, used an engine about 25% bigger. That'd be something like a 4VZ-FE. If Rod wants to compare apples with oranges, then I'll play that game too. But he's a little mixed up with identifying his fruit .... !
"Does MR20V have a 240hp 4AGE???????.... I dont think so... I will be very impressed if you can get a smooth idle..."
Where did I say or infer that he did have a 240hp 20v? Why do you bring 240hp into it? My 230hp engine hasn't even been built yet, so like the people above you are either not reading what I've written or are just making stuff up. Just for you, I'll write it again -> The engine in my car is about 185hp and that's the one that Haydn went for a ride in. Got that? Haydn was very impressed with how the car went, saying that it was MUCH quicker than his car, even though there was three of us in mine. (Shaneo2 was there as well. I also wrote that before but ...) All three of us are at leat 100kgs, so not light at all. Got that? I also drove the car around at about 1200rpm in each gear to show them how sedate it can be. Got that? It idles between 1100 - 1200rpm with a slight lump to the idle. Got that?
"I'm not going to keep going.. Bill, Rod was simply comparing the stock and potential of the 2TG and 4AGE... you came in with V6's, 3SGE's' and even the humble 3K.. enough said"
Yes, I mentioned all of those, but if those who argue don't bother with a thing called context then anything is possible.
Here ya go, I'll mention Space Shuttle. You can quote me on that one ... no doubt out of context.
Since you lot are not capable of coherant argument, I will not reply here further other than to correct the mistakes that people will no doubt next make about what I've written.
[Updated on: Mon, 03 June 2002 09:26]
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Registered:
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I have a solution
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Mon, 03 June 2002 09:45
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No Message Body
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 13:03
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Bill? 190 oops, I mean 185 HP at the flywheel, then 84kW (I know this is 112HP) @ the wheels! Dude!! Take the sand out of your gearbox and diff!! Hell, even with an optimistic dyno you're not close... and computer sims, I've done those where I become a millionaire....can't wait.
Injector duty cycle calcs....fine if you give us a COMPLETE exhaust gas analyses (my mate has a car that will wheelspin in fourth so does it have heaps of power or shit tyres? I know you're smart enough to work out the relationship here Bill.)
Beaten "professional" racers...Big Deal, so have I. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have no respect for someone JUST because they are a "professional" racer. Just 'cause you can afford it doesn't mean you're good at it.
Oh, and if anyone's interested I've posted some info in the old thread (didn't spot this new one in time). So now that Bill and Rod have stopped posting, what do the rest of us say? If you were building a TA23 would you use the T or the A. No that's a bit biased 'coz thats already got the T mounts. How about a KE20, so now weight is more of a factor, changing mounts is compulsory for both, RWD (so that the T doesn't loose straight away).
C'mon, how about us, who are uncapable of a coherent argument, at least have a coherent discussion. And who cares if people get pissed off, as long as the facts keep flowing. Which gladly they have been doing from both camps in abundance. So everyone slag away!
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Club President
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 14:54
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Seadog,
Mate great info on the engine weights I'll convert it to Kg's later so I can get a better feel for the difference. I wouldn't take any car mag as gospel but happy to work on those figures in lou of any others. If the 2TG figure in Kilos is around that of the Factory 2TG figure we know its pretty close. Keeping in mind Factory weights from Toyota are almost always Dry weights !
Micheal,
Dude a "7AGE" definatly qualifies as part of this discussion. We are looking to see what can be acheived from a set starting point. As you know I looked into the 7AGE option myself but was unable to find satisfactory Rods to suit the job short of getting some carillo's or similar made. The crank was also suggested to be not as rev happy as the 4AGE but that was speculation. Johny may be able to help out with that ?
Also what is the Maximum safe overbore for a 4AGE ?
The 2TG in my opinion has a safe limit of 3.5mm but up to 5.0 mm has been acheived. No one wants to have paperthin block walls so lets say the 2TG's is 3.5mm.
BIll,
The 4AGE oil pump has can be upgraded by using the pump from a 1GGZE or 1GGTE according to TRD. The 2TG pump can be replaced with the 3TGTE item to acheive a similar result.
Sumps the 4AGE has it all over the 2TG in the sump department. The 2TG can benefit alot from the addition of a windage tray.
The 2TG also has a thermostat too ! Don't almost all engines ?? I'm not aware of any that don't !
2TG can also run slotted pulleys but you are better off with offset pin locations due to the smaller size of the cam wheels. They are not as easy to adjust but are more reliable at high RPM. Last thing you need is the pully shifting !
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 21:48
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Bill,
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It has been on a chassis dyno, at Chiptorque last week. It made 84kW but I know that the engine makes more than that. Reasons for this are - I have had the car with the old engine in it on another dyno and I made more power. This is the usual diferences between dyno's, and I'm sure that if I took the car to another one I'd get more like 100kW or so. I also have checked the injector duty cycle and from that they are flowing for for 185hp. This backs up the sim dyno program pretty well, as does the Chiptorque dyno run, as the HP curve followed the simmed one almost exactly. It's also backed up by the fact that it's at least as fast as a WRX in a straight line, possibly not too far of an Sti. How do I know this? Because we've got a WRX that has a kit on it that takes it to STi specs. I know what speed I can get up to on certain straights near my place, and the Sprinter is not very far behind at all.
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That great Bill - it would be interesting to see the car on the same Dyno as the rest of us.
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I have no plans to drive to Sydney again in the future so that's not going to happen. And I see that you've yet again chosen to ignore my twice posting that a local member(s) can back up what I say. At no point did I say or write "tremendous power". Thanks for strongly inferring that I'm lying, it gives you so much credibility.
Not.
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It is not that I doubt the word of the local members, it is just the fact that unless they are really good at measuring hp and kw what they interpret to be may not neccessarily be what actually is. After all, gearbox and diff ratio's plus tyre compounds and overall vehicle weight all impact on a vehicles acceleration.
As for credibility - I am the record holder so I have that.
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So who was first to come up with actual valve sizes, etc?
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Bill it is nice to see you got one thing right - then again you did mis-quote one of only two valve sizes.
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Excuse me?
Attempting to be a sarcastic smartarse doesn't work if you don't know what you're talking about. I've been rallying on & off since 1984, circuit racing since 1990 and in circuit racing I've run at my classes National championships a number of times and always finished in the top three places. I've qualifed on pole for the Nationals twice, and also beaten professional racing drivers (Terry Sheid) in a faster car then mine. (Mallock Mk31)
So yes I do know a little about turning up to an event thank you very much.
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Well I do know, in fact if beating something is a measure even my car has beaten WRX's in street racing.....Big Deal. I don not care what you have done or who you raced - I was talking about TOYMODS EVENTS in over two years of attending Toymods events - I have yet to see you at one! Your choice - my undefeated title.
Cya
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Location:
New Zealand
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 22:41
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Seadog:
If A series, I'd run 7AGE.
If T series, I'd run 3TG.
If other.......
I was initially going to 4AGE my KE35. But I got a good (at the time, later a stinker) deal on 2TG setup. So I went for that.
The 2TG killed itself, but I got mint deal on a heap of 2TG engines, efi gear, etc. So i've put a 2TGEU back in my KE35.
The 4AGE is a better engine IMHO, especially when comparing factory computer setups, which is what a poor person like myself could afford.
I'm happy with 2TGEU though, because I can run big cams with it, Jaycar PIK , I have a rebored/sleeved block, and have no boost cut when I fit my SC14..... gooo AFM! 
Interesting how the 2TGEU runs 8.8:1 compression too, whereas the carbed engine runs 9.8:1 compression. I wonder what the hp would be of a 9.8:1 2TGEU?
Maybe they were trying to detune the engine?
So it doesn't really answer your question. But I'd go 4AGE unless I got a deal on 2TGEU stuff.
Karl
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Location:
Sydney
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Mon, 03 June 2002 23:45
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Ok, Now this is hurting me and getting out of hand.
This has turned into some Fucking flame war against Bill.
Im not going to push any shit here because im in no position too.
But..
Heres what i see -
Teenz and Rod - You love your 2TG's, Thats great. Everyone has different Point of views and Different ways of thought.
Teenz - sounds like you have a great 2tg. You guys have done a great job.
Bill - Ive never met this guy but it doesnt take a Rocket Scientist to work out that this guy knows his shit. From what i have read on these forums he has been a great help. And is allways more than willing to Share his knowledge with us. Not like some of the Narrow minded pricks who wont tell you what theyve done to their car (just incase others might do the same), Great attitude that one. If your modding your car but wont tell the club ppl's what you have experienced or what you know then I think your doing it for the wrong reasons. (then again maybe im narrow minded to believe that Information/knowledge should be free)
At the end of the day i couldnt give a Rats arse whos car puts out what on the dyno... I want to see car vs. car down the quarter.
Ive said it before and ill say it again!
BAH HUMBUG!
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 00:16
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Rod
"Also what is the Maximum safe overbore for a 4AGE ?"
82mm for sure, but I know of people that have gone to 83mm and say it's okay. That's using the seven rib block though, and I'd be very, very nervous about going that far. The extra capacity is not worth the potential trouble IMHO.
"The 2TG also has a thermostat too ! Don't almost all engines ?? I'm not aware of any that don't !'
Where did I say or infer that the 2TG doesn't have a thermostat?
"Last thing you need is the pully shifting !"
Never seen one move, but now that I think about it that's a minor advantage of the 4AG, as it has much bigger diameter pulleys and so ther leverage is far greater.
Just so I can't be miss-quoted, this means that they stand less chance of failing or moving than the 2TG.
Teenz
"That great Bill - it would be interesting to see the car on the same Dyno as the rest of us."
Yep, come on up to the Coast anytime and get them dynoed.
"It is not that I doubt the word of the local members, it is just the fact that unless they are really good at measuring hp and kw what they interpret to be may not neccessarily be what actually is. After all, gearbox and diff ratio's plus tyre compounds and overall vehicle weight all impact on a vehicles acceleration."
Yep, which is why mine impressed the other two because it's faster than their's is, with all three in mine at the same time.
"Bill it is nice to see you got one thing right - then again you did mis-quote one of only two valve sizes."
It wasn't a miss-quote, it was a mistake, which I admitted later when corrected. However I'm sure that one of the 2TG series has a larger inlet valve, around the 48mm mark. (88261 head??)
"I don not care what you have done or who you raced"
You were inferring that I do not show up to any events, which is totally wrong. Say what you mean next time.
"I was talking about TOYMODS EVENTS in over two years of attending Toymods events - I have yet to see you at one!"
I've been to about the same number of QLD meetings that you have. Works both ways ...
I'm also member number 3, actually, so I was in the club well before you were. I think I left Sydney before you even joined.
Convid, let it go. It's all water off a duck's back to me. Thanks for the words though.
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Location:
Newcastle
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 00:32
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Rod,
Bill is talking about the fact that the 4AGE thermostat controls the cold water into the engine, and the 2TG thermostat controls the hot water out. Apparently the 4AGE setup is better. The 20V has the best system where the head is cooled first (well, one side of it).
For the conversions, there are 2.2 lbs/kg.
Karl,
I agree. That is why I'm using a 4AGE in my KE20. The lighter weight and smaller size were the main reasons. But the hassles I had working out how to get it RWD (it's a 20V) made me wonder for a while. And I can also see the appeal of keeping to the "period" of the car for some people (not me). As for the 7A bottom end, I went around the wreckers yesterday (I was putting a 5-speed in a mates KE30) and saw about 4 T18 engines already out but not a single 7A. It's a good idea but they're not really common enough yet (at the wreckers) to be cheap.
Apparently the 7A crank is not that bad, you just have to spend a bit of time nitriding, and dowelling the flywheel etc.This is what I have read from someone who I believe knows his stuff. It is heresay though.
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Location:
New Zealand
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 00:40
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seadog:
Yeah, It is quite nice to pretend my car is a TE37
Takes up a lot of room in the engine bay, but otherwise not too much to be a pain. Wiring is also quite neat compared to factory 4AGE. Probably due to fuel only computer setup though.
Karl
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 04:54
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Bill,
You didn't say the 2TG didn't have a thermostat Just that the 4AGE thermostat controlled water going into the block. Since you made no Reference to the 2TG I was unsure what you were comparing.
Thanks Seadog for pointing it out 
The 2TG thermostat is on the exit side of the engine. Not sure how that is a worse design tho ? Either way water is prevented from recirculating ? Heat soak into the radiator is just occuring at opposite ends of the system ?? What is the benefit of the 4AGE design ?? Genuine question not having a shot here.
Valve Sizes.
The 2TG does have two different valves sizes. Intake valves on the 11111-88220 2TG head were only 43mm.
In April 1973 they released the 11111-88222 head. It was the first to have the 44.5mm intake valves. The 11111-88260, 11111-88261 and 11111-88262 heads all share the same valve sizing. They only vary in cam profiles and Compression. This was due to the ever tightening emissions laws.
As for Pully size 4AGE is definatly better suited to the sliding adjustable gears. The vernier type advustment is acheiveable with a 2TG but it is set up differently. You require 15 Holes to be drilled into the pully and 16 into the Cam itself. When set at the correct spacings this then gives you your adjustable pulleys Hardly anyone bothers due to the setup time involved.
The more cammom practive is to re-dowell each pully at the correct location by drilling 1 addition hole thru the pulley and into the cam Takes all of 5 minutes a side and your timing is perfect (But not adjustable)
Corvid,
The best time down the quarter for Tina's car so far is 16.052 @ 85.45MPH. Its not a great time but not bad for my third trip to the creek.
Seadog,
According to my Diary kg = pounds x .4536. Using that basis your weights are:
4AGE - 122.5kg
4AC - 108.9kg
2TG - 145.2kg
Look like they are pretty accurate if you reference the 2TG weight to the Toyota 2TGEU weight !
So there it is, 22.7 kgs weight advantage to the 4AGE !
OK heres a new train of though I am looking into ! Feel free to pull this theory to shreds I am still looking for info to evaluate it. I have been curious for some time why it is there are T series drag engines areound the world but very few A series Drag engines. I have come to beleive this is due to Cam limitations on an A series head.
Since the head is Narrower I am guessing there is considerably less room to swing a High lift camlobe in a 4AGE head. Just wondering if the extra valve compensates for this at the far edge of profiles. ??? Again this is just an initial thought would love to hear everyones thoughts and hopefully some figures to show either way ! I assume the extra valve more than compensates but would love to know for sure.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 05:13
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Could the lack of A-series drag car be due to the fact that most of the drag cars utilising the T-series would be RWD, whereas most of the good A-series are FWD? Given FWD drag racing isn't the most popular... Just a thought.
Also, how long have the 7AFE's been around? I'd say more people would have had time to stuff around with the 3T crank for the 2T than those using parts to make a 7AGE.
No digs there, just trying to put some words to the screen.
Nathan
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Location:
New Zealand
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 05:49
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hmm. good point about lack of RWD A series cars.
thetoyman:
What car is that 2TG in?
my friends AE86 with about 140hp will pull 15s down the quarter.
TRD LSD, 13" tyres that are bit grippier then most. Not striped, but about 920kg.
Karl
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 06:05
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Loath as I am to repeat myself, I'll do it.
As was pointed out above, I was talking about 2TG and 4AG water systems.
Your question -
"What is the benefit of the 4AGE design ??"
And my answer as before - The 4AG has the thermostat controlling the water going into the block, and so it'll get up to temperature much faster and also maintain that temperature with much greater consistancy.
You own a 4AG, so unless there's a problem with yours then you will see the same thing.
I'd best explain it further so there's no confusion.
By 'getting up to temperature faster' I mean that from cold the water temp needle will reach the operating temperature faster. This is what I've seen with my old 2TG vs the 4AGE's.
By a more consistant temperature I mean that the water temperature needle will stay in the same position and not move around like a 2TG powered car does. In driving my 4AG for nearly 12 years I have yet to see the water temp needle move from the left hand part of the 'M' on the guage.
Thanks for the info on the valve diameters. What about the 3TG? I seem to remember they're an odd size as well? I had one for a while but I never pulled it apart.
"The best time down the quarter for Tina's car so far is 16.052 @ 85.45MPH. Its not a great time but not bad for my third trip to the creek."
Then I really should put a stock T-50 back into the car instead of the close-ratio straight cut box, as I did a 14.93 @ 145kph in 1990, with the old engine that has at least 40hp less than the current one. I've also got a shorter diff ratio, an LSD, and much stickier tyres.
Should be good for low 14's odd.
Don't know why the drag boys would go for a T engine over an A engine, if they stay at 1600cc's, as we already know that a Formula Atlantic 4AG is up around the 240hp mark. Yes, they're expensive but the results are there.
If you want to use something more like two litres, then as I've written you're better off using a 3SGE instead as it'll cost less.
[Updated on: Tue, 04 June 2002 06:09]
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 07:23
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Bill,
Your first reference to the thermostate is a follows.
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The 4AG has the thermostat comtrolling the water going into the block, and so it'll get up to temperature much faster and also maintain that temperature with much greater consistancy.
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Your above post repeats this yet still fails to offer any substance.
Your second attempt
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Loath as I am to repeat myself, I'll do it.
As was pointed out above, I was talking about 2TG and 4AG water systems.
Your question -
"What is the benefit of the 4AGE design ??"
And my answer as before - The 4AG has the thermostat controlling the water going into the block, and so it'll get up to temperature much faster and also maintain that temperature with much greater consistancy.
You own a 4AG, so unless there's a problem with yours then you will see the same thing.
I'd best explain it further so there's no confusion.
By 'getting up to temperature faster' I mean that from cold the water temp needle will reach the operating temperature faster. This is what I've seen with my old 2TG vs the 4AGE's.
By a more consistant temperature I mean that the water temperature needle will stay in the same position and not move around like a 2TG powered car does. In driving my 4AG for nearly 12 years I have yet to see the water temp needle move from the left hand part of the 'M' on the guage.
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I'm sorry you feel the need to explain it so slowly I guess you are truely having trouble explaining the information you stated.
My question still remians ! Why is the 4AGE system deamed to be better ? Both Systems cool the head area first (Being where combustion heat is at its greatest )
At all times the Cooling system is FULL of water.
In a 2TG the flow is regulated from the exit point of the engine as such the engine heats all the water in the engine and once it reaches the desired operating temperature of 82 Degress the thermostat opens and cold water flows in from the radiator. During this stage of reaching operating temperature Heat soak
occurs thru the bottom radiator hose and into the radiator
With a 4AGE the Principle is Identicle only the Heat soak occurs thru the top radiator hose ??
I still fail to see the benefit you claim ?
As for your Guage movements I can only suggest you better maintain your guages ! A 2TG engine has no problems maintaining a constant operating temperature ! This is the job a Thermostate does in conjustion with the cooling fan and radiator.
Clearly your install was not as it should be if you were getting these problems. A common mistake of those with minimal knowledge of a cooling system is to Set the thermo switch at to low a temperature and thus it competes with the thermostate to regulate the operating temperature. Perhaps that was your problem ?
As for the 3TGTE valve size I'll get back to you to confirm !
JustcallmeFrank,
Mate you may well have the answer there ! RWD is by far the dominant and more traditional set up for Drag Cars ! I didn't even consider that
And as for age of the Crank option I have no Idea when the 7A was released but it was definatly long after the 3T !
Its way of topic but the 3T (Not 3TGTE) is very widely used in drag racing in the States and in Portugal. Turbo 3T's with well over 600HP are a common occurance. Yep all that from a Pushrod engine ! But as I said its way off topic.
Karl,
Tina's car is a Daily Driven 2TG. Not sure what it weighs yet but will find out on Saturday. Runs a locked 4.1:1 diff and 13" treads at the Strip. (Not Slicks) Poor time is mainly due to my lack of launching tecnique and its desperate need for a stronger clamping force from the clutch !
Gearbox is stock T50.
[Updated on: Tue, 04 June 2002 07:27]
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Location:
Sydney, Australia
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 08:02
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Guys, I'm this close to locking this thread, there's some good info in here but it's surrounded by a lot of "this engine's better than that engine" bullshit.
Everyone likes a good discussion but nobody's going to benefit from personal attacks, innuendo, insinuations and the like, so I'm putting you all on notice. One more post in this manner and this whole thread is kaput.
I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, you can still disagree and have a lively discussion but there's absolutely no need to get nasty while doing it. If you can't post something constructive and polite, please don't post at all.
rgrds
sam
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 08:46
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No Message Body
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Now HERE's something constructive...
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Tue, 04 June 2002 09:07
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Alright, here's my attempt to settle the argument once & for all...
the topic was 4A vs 2T
the heated debate which went on for a while there (before we started arguing about thermostats of all things... Jebus! ) was that the 2T was better due to the fact that capacity could be increased easily. Bill then pointed out that increase in capacity on a 4A was just as easy, however stated that in a true comparison of factory based engines, the 1600cc capacity should be retained... i tend to agree. in order to back this up, here's an analogy im sure we can all relate to...
Okay, imagine that the 4A and the 2T are pairs of tits.
thats right, TITS... breasts.
each is a couple of nice, firm handfuls of goodness. extrememly similar, but slightly diferent... nearly identical in all respects.
the nipples can easily be tweaked on both for added stimulation, further enhancing the tits, and increasing their appeal. (this can be related to cams or headwork i suppose )
next we can add something such as some nice, lacy, black lingerie, so further enhance the tits... both sets of tits will easily accomodate such underwear, once again, adding to their appeal. (this can be related to ancileries such as manifolds, ignition systems etc. )
now, both sets of tits can also be modified extensively with the addition of SILICONE IMPLANTS... (these can be directly related to an increase in capacity, obviously... )
if we add silicone implants to the 2T tits, and not the 4A tits, well then of course the 2T tits are going to be much more appealing... but unfortunately, its not really a fair comparison anymore in my mind...
jack those 4A titties up with some of Dow Corning's finest, however, and the comparison becomes much more level, and as always, much more exciting.
(i guess instead of comparing apples with apples, in this case we could be comparing melons with melons, huh?... )
now if that isnt the most relevant, constructive & polite post in the entire series of these threads, i'll eat my hat.
the whole point being that theyre both pretty damn cool, but it all comes down to what those tits are attached to in the end though, doesnt it? (same with the engines.)
**oh, and if anyone says, i dont like big tits, then you're a homo  **
[Updated on: Tue, 04 June 2002 09:40]
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 09:29
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Hayden,
LMFAO !!! 
Thats the best post I've read in a ages !
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Location:
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 09:29
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Oh, a couple more little things i think i should stick my nose into... (especially considered my name has been flying around these threads for a while now without me knowing about it)
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Does MR20V have a 240hp 4AGE???????.... I dont think so...
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Havoc, maybe i do... 
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unless they are really good at measuring hp and kw what they interpret to be may not neccessarily be what actually is
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Teenz, as a matter of fact, i am ... and if Bill says that that's the power that it's got, then it's good enough for me... he's not a 17 year old kid down at Brighton Le Sands talking up his Gemini... ive seen the car, seen the engine & experienced it first hand. and im in no postion to want to lie either... 
i also know that sitting in the passenger seat of his car when he took me & Shane out for a drive, scared the living piss out of me...  i seriously never imagined that a Sprinter could be that fast without the aid of a turbo... i know how fast my car is (last time at the Creek when Rod was there, i managed a 16.1 with wheelspin all through 1st & 2nd gears due to some crappy tyres i had on the car, which isnt very far behind your car at all, i might add), and Bills car shits all over it... even with over 300kgs worth of occupants as extra weight.
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"drives like a normal car" isn't hard to understand. I assume if I cough and it sounds like I said "Bullshit" you will also get my meaning
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Rod, mate, thats no bullshit at all. 100% guaranteed, Bills car runs even smoother than mine does. take my word for it if you dont beleive Bill...
can a nigga get a table dance?
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Location:
Sydney
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May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 09:35
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| thetoyman75 wrote on Tue, 04 June 2002 7:29 PM |
Hayden,
LMFAO !!!
Thats the best post I've read in a ages !
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thanks Rod!
its not that ive got a one-track mind, but it's the best way i could think of to get my point across without going over things again... *now where did i leave that copy of Playboy?*
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 10:29
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OMG!
That has got to be the best analogy I've ever heard of.
I think in one fell swoop, you have clarified the whole scenario, in regards to Bill's argument, without pissing off anyone else.
To be fair, I think that the counter-argument that Rod's putting forward about one ease of pumping out the displacement of the 2TG is one of its strong points. This being true, the situation is as Bill puts it "not apples with apples" but, its something that someone will look at, no matter what you want to call the final result (stroked 2TG...3TG with 2TG name )
Sure you can pump out a 4AGE, but you've covered all the nitty gritty stuff already. What you are talking about when the displacement is the key factor is lump value.
For some, making a 2TG lump put out Xhp is easier for some. Making a 4AG lump put out Yhp is easier for others. Its all a matter of horses for causes.
Sorry my post isn't as nice as Mr20v's (not many are )...but I've been reading all of this thread, all of the other and just had to say something.
Have a good one peoples.
Nathan
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May 2002
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 Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 11:31
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Finally!!!! Some sarcasm without anything else!! Mr 20V, good job...
Although it has got me thinking.... if one 'set of tits' comes out of the factory just as nice (give or take...), but a bit heavier..... eventually, that's going to be a factor? As in a 'dragging on the ground' type factor??
We'll see...
Alex
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 12:10
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Alex,
Are you trying to say I have saggy tits !!! Cause I have  (J/K)
Hayden,
Mate a decent set of treads and I recon you've got me (Tina's beast) next creek meet and I don't doubt Bills car is quick. I certainly don't doubt your opinion of it either. Shame ther isn't a really worked 2TG in the club that can take you for a blast
Been ages since I had mine ahh well maybe I'll build another one eventually !.
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 12:44
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The 2TG was good for its time I guess. Toyota made the 4AGE better, as years had passed and they learned more things. I can see that Bill apretiates that the 4AGE is a better designed engine, as it is newer etc. And compared to many other normal car engines, the 4AGE is very sporty in design.
If you have a 2TG, you can bore it out and whatever for more HP, put it probably won't be as smooth or nice as a 4AGE.
Then again, if you have a pushrod V8 it will also be bigger in capasity than a 4AGE, and if you bore it out more you may have more HP and torque than a 4AGE. But the 4AGE is still the better motor for its size.
I have a 2TG because it was avaliable cheap, and its the correct motor for my car. I will get a 4AGE, as soon as I get a AE86. But first I'm getting a 3T crank and stuff.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 13:02
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 I really didn't want to get involved in this but,
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Also, how long have the 7AFE's been around? I'd say more people would have had time to stuff around with the 3T crank for the 2T than those using parts to make a 7AGE.
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There is only one reason.... BLOODY EXPENSIVE
That why... I know for sure that to get good power from 7A or it's componets costs a Motsa.
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Beaten "professional" racers...Big Deal, so have I. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have no respect for someone JUST because they are a "professional" racer. Just 'cause you can afford it doesn't mean you're good at it.
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I was street racing long before Rallying so I can agree with this, but look at the consequences now if your caught.... 3 years walking with 5 months to go, no more street drags for me!!
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We are looking to see what can be acheived from a set starting point. As you know I looked into the 7AGE option myself but was unable to find satisfactory Rods to suit the job short of getting some carillo's or similar made. The crank was also suggested to be not as rev happy as the 4AGE but that was speculation. Johny may be able to help out with that ?
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Ah, Conrods, Mine are just shot peened and linished, but I wasn't planning a 8,000 Redline, 7,500 seem to be the limit, my redline is about 7-7,200 rpm. The 20V 7AGE I'm about to embark on will need custom rods to break that RPM limit, the Crank will have to be lightened (same, 7,500 rpm hard to break), but I'm have a re-think on this... I'll try a plain 7AGE, standard everthing in my Girls AE92 before I start just to get a base figure. Rod, Think we talked about this at the Autosalon.... Conclusion was cost effectivness of cash and ease of finding good go fast parts for the 2T vs that of a 7A.... with mine (7A) being custom this and custom that.....
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Apparently the 7A crank is not that bad, you just have to spend a bit of time nitriding, and dowelling the flywheel etc.This is what I have read from someone who I believe knows his stuff. It is heresay though.
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Me!! My stupid co-driver decided to see what happens to a 7A@10,000 Rpm... sheared the flywheel clean off except for one bolt or two bolts, Now is dowelled for other stupid mishaps at his hands... The rest survived for another day luckly. 7A has less flywheel bolts than a 4A (6 vs  . Yes mine is a Nitrided Standard Forged 7A crank as per homologation for Grp A.
MR20V, Your tit's comparison couldn't put this discussion in a better perspective... and give us a more light hearted view of this topic.
I've seen 2/3TG and not forgeting the other 2V twincam, the 18RG, putting out impressive power figures. An I will admit that my 7AFE which has spent more and more time on a dyno, has produce figures from 68hp(50Kw) all the way to 110hp(82Kw). Depend on Cams, fuel, injectors rates, three different heads, but I'm talking about a full on Grp A rally car built to run at NSW and OZ level racing on a workable budget... each bit has been built on. Being Realistic the 110Hp setup wasn't usable for what I had in mind... Then the same workshop show the full potential of a N/A 20V they race.... 188Hp(145Kw). I've never seen power like that from any toyota 1.6l I can think of... In the end beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Tue, 04 June 2002 22:36
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Johny,
Thanks for coming in with info. I was hoping to hear from you in regards to the 7A debate as I know you've been working with one.
Theres always heaps of theories floating around so its great when someone can say hey I tried it and this is the deal.
Mate hopefully you can get down to the Dyno day as I'd love to see the torque curve on that thing ! That is what I personally disliked about any of my 4AGE's ! I recon the 7A bottom end would go a long way to fixing that issue.
Good to hear the licensing issue is almost sorted too mate be great to see you more often at events
In keeping with Haydens way of thinking... I guess now it would be safe to say that even when two sets of tits are the same sometimes they just cost more to get your hands on them
As for the 20 Valve I personally think it is perhaps a tad overated in stock form but there is no denying it has the upperhand on its 8 and 16 valve counterparts.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 02:14
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The 20V has slightly nicer nipples & a very sexy bra....
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 07:33
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hey, you know what else i just realised?
the 4AGZE must be like 4A tits in a push-up bra!!!
still very appealing, but only having the illusion of greater capacity due to the nature of its support system...
am i a genius or what?!?!? (this analogy makes more & more sense the more i think about it!)
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 07:36
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Gee, just wait until you hit puberty, then see where your hormones take you!!!!!
Lol, just kidding!
Alex
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 07:48
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puberty!?!?!?
im 25 years old!!! 
it must be by obsessive fascination with the two greatest things in life....
CARS
and
TITS
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 08:41
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I think you may have stumbled upon the greatest possible analogy of all time!
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Wed, 05 June 2002 09:37
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Mate hopefully you can get down to the Dyno day as I'd love to see the torque curve on that thing ! That is what I personally disliked about any of my 4AGE's ! I recon the 7A bottom end would go a long way to fixing that issue.
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I should be there later on in the day, I've got a Supersprint on the same day, So I'll do a few then be over.... Should have some in car vid's too of the runs.... I'll be trueful, Teenz car could still be higher in Hp, but torque curve should be good... Like I said, I've been doing heaps on the Dyno lately, but still needs more!! It's @ 90HP and not at all lumply while idling.
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As for the 20 Valve I personally think it is perhaps a tad overated in stock form but there is no denying it has the upperhand on its 8 and 16 valve counterparts.
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South African version would be close, Same crap fuels, same conditions, Should see the difference a good racing fuel does for them.
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the 4AGZE must be like 4A tits in a push-up bra!!!
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What your rating for a 4AGTE? or even better , the S/C Turbo HKS 4A?
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Thu, 13 June 2002 19:29
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Tina's car is a Daily Driven 2TG. Not sure what it weighs yet but will find out on Saturday. Runs a locked 4.1:1 diff and 13" treads at the Strip. (Not Slicks) Poor time is mainly due to my lack of launching tecnique and its desperate need for a stronger clamping force from the clutch !
Gearbox is stock T50.
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Please look at what i've highlighted.
Is that legal?
a daily driven car with a locked diff? (i've been contemplating locking the diff but wasn't sure if it's legal or not, i mean, $0.00 vs LSD $1200 or so)
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
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Thu, 13 June 2002 19:38
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Locked diff is sweet as.
I've been driving my daily driven KE35 around with a locked diff for about 1 year now.
It wears tyres faster, and you have to watch corner entry understeer.
But..... it's much more controllable when it steps out, is heaps more fun.
Need to be fearless with the feint motion if you expect to be faster racing with it at autocrosses or rallys.
Karl
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Re: 2TG/4AG part 2
Re: 2TG/4AG part 2