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Location:
Cabramatta
Registered:
November 2002
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 Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 11 December 2002 02:21
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I'm getting very annoyed and impatient about the federal govt's inaction about the ethanol issue. They say there's no scientic evidence that it harms our engines, but I reckon they are just covering up for one of their mates.
The reason I say this is from today's article in the SMH - "Manildra is a major donor to the Liberal Party and its principal, Dick Honan, is a friend of the Prime Minister."
If you haven't heard, Manildra is a near-monopoly producer of ethanol in Australia. If the govt's not gonna do anything about this, I say we should all boycott independent petrol stations that use ethanol. (btw, i havent filled up at an independent station for 2 and 1/2 half years now.)
Maurice
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 11 December 2002 02:34
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i could not agree more.... this is even more reason for me not again not vote in the next election, since i really dont like either of them... both parties are GAY!
im trying to get my hands on an ethanol testing kit so that before i fill up i can measure the volume of ethanol, and fill up accordingly.
This, along the with gov's inactivity regarding the Pacific Hwy road toll ("err, just stick in more speed cameras!") are my main gripes with automotive related government inactivity. Give it to them NRMA!
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Location:
Melbourne Eastern Suburbs
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 11 December 2002 10:27
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If I remember correctly, ethanol is a renewable resource, and it burns to CO2. Seems good to me, apart from the detonation issues. Methinx with correctly built and tuned engines and related systems, ethanol would make a great alternative to LPG and Petroleum.
Though as long as they mix ethanol with petroleum and don't tell us about it, I'm not happy. NRMA, get going.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 11 December 2002 23:04
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Can anyone tell me which outlets sell this stuff (in Canberra, I mean)...so I can avoid them?
Just for interest's sake, they say that the sellers have to sign-post the fact that the fuel is an ethanol blend, and how much is being used. Watch this space, however, for when the legislation is watered down, so that the ethanol blend becomes "de-rigeur" by stealth - before we know it, we'll ONLY be able to buy ethanol mixed fuel.
It isn't about what's good for your car - it's only about protecting Liberal party vested interests (by garnering cane-farming community votes).
Given that Australia has the 2nd-oldest vehicle fleet in the world, it wouldn't surprise me if introducing ethanol were a means of getting some of the older cars off the road (given what ethanol supposedly does to older engines)- thus forcing people to upgrade and giving the local industry a kick-along at the same time...
*end rant*
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Location:
Brisbane - Chapel Hill
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 11 December 2002 23:23
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Bah, re: getting old cars off the road. Thats a crock of shit. I remember a report where a silly young bitch had taken the paint off her "old" car with 10% eth mix. Well, she'd spilt fuel all the way down the side of her car, and then left it in the sun all day. WTF does she expect? any fuel will do that to an old car ... stupid bitch
As for component damage. Alcohol isnt caustic. It isnt an oxidising agent! We drink it FFS! It's a great fuel additive. And what's more, I'd be more inclined to say that the detergents in newer fuels are more likely to ruin parts of old cars.
High concentrations (which is what the debate was about if you watched the only station that MADE THAT POINT --> the ABC) can be a problem, since higher concentrations of an additive to increase octane ultimately reach a point (as is my understanding) where there is too much additive and not enough fuel ... hence sluggish performance etc. Combined with this lower calorific value of ethanol, people aren't tuning their cars for it, esp CARBS, and as such, will see poorer performance, (unless they meter it up a bit to combat the lower energy per uni of fuel, of course)
As for evidence that it causes "component failure" etc, I can't see how a modern, High Pressure EFi system, would stumble on the lower percentages of alcohol. Sure, high concentrations, can weaken some plastics (eg EFi hose) which could be a significant problem, but that is at concentrations of 50% or more at least!?!
It's all turned into a big political debate, and the benefits of alcohol additives have been slandered in the process, by idiot Current Affairs programs like "Extra" and "Today Tonight" Bravo to the Media
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 12 December 2002 00:29
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What about fuel economy?
Its going to be worse with ethanol right, but they are still going to charge the same price for it! Not to mention the ethanol probably costs them 2c a liter so they make more money cutting the fuel with it.
Just my 2c
Cheers
Wilbo
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 12 December 2002 05:48
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I don't remember stipulating a certain % of ethanol...In fact the debate is about the Govt's refusal to commit to capping the mix at 10% (above which - around 20% I believe - the problems start to occur). I believe this was also mentioned on the aforementioned ABC...
I'm also led to believe that ultimately ethanol blends will cost more (for what reason I have no idea), which begs the question, Why?
There doesn't seem to be any tangible benefit, except to cane growers. Given that you know so much about the subject, however, perhaps you can enlighten us...
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Location:
Melbourne Eastern Suburbs
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 12 December 2002 08:34
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the abc's probably exaggerated the whole thing anyway. they should support ethanol, as they are greenies, dont ya reckon?
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Club Member
Location:
Sydney, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 12 December 2002 11:05
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It's Mobil for me... That's it... I use both Unleaded and 8000 Premium... It all depends on the price and the way that I feel like driving...
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 12 December 2002 11:32
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I would say that the main problem with ethanol is that it burns too cleanly, meaning that there is no natural lubricants to keep your piston rings etc from drying out and disintegrating.
You should be able to tell fairly easily which servo's are using ethanol anyway (the ones which are about 10c cheaper)
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Fri, 13 December 2002 11:50
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from what I've read..
- anything above 10% concentration is dangerous
- ethanol is cheaper than the usual gasoline mix
- ethanol can corrode metal components
- ethanol will also eat away at certain rubber & fibre, causing pretty big problems for fuel lines
- It is also much poorer in fuel economy wise
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Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Tue, 17 December 2002 23:58
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here's a news article about ethanol, I reckon the mechanic exaggerate the problem a bit, ethanol causes detonation so it blew open the cat converter, so just replace the cat coverter, why did he need to do the full ignition test and clean / inspect fuel injectors for the poor lady?  It mentioned about one year ago when the problem occurred, they only had to replace the cat converter anyway.. geez..
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/17/10396563 93418.html
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 18 December 2002 03:48
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my main whinge is the fact that we arent being informed of what we are putting into our cars!
consumer's rights should be considered here! we have the right to know if there is an additive in our fuel that affects the performance in ANY way... negatively or positively!! Shit - the oil co's have no worries bombarding us with BULLSHIT info about the latest advancement in their fuel technologies... but they would NEVER mention anything about ethanol.. even though it is mixed in concentrations up to 2000% larger than those "performance" additives!
i just want to know whats in the fuel im using to run my vehicle, so that i can make up my own mind on what goes in there, and ultimately what im going to have to repair and when!
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 18 December 2002 04:32
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You'll also hear that ethanol is good for the local sugar industry. How when manildra produces their ethanol from grain and has just applied for a grain import license to cut costs further. The govt quotes a lack of evidence that it causes any problems to engines, todays SMH cites
"The Environment Minister, David Kemp, maintained there was no conclusive evidence that blends of more than 10 per cent ethanol damaged engines. This is despite the fact that every major car maker in the country, motoring and consumer groups, all relevant government agencies, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and petrol companies all demand a 10 per cent cap. Car makers have warned they will not honour warranties on vehicles given higher blends."
Who's butt is the Manildra hand that hands out the donations up?
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Location:
Cabramatta
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Wed, 18 December 2002 05:35
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[quote title = clubagreenie wrote on Wed, 18 December 2002 15:32] Who's butt is the Manildra hand that hands out the donations up? quote]
Its the owner, Dick Honan, who is good friends with Johny Howard.
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Location:
MACKAY
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 19 December 2002 11:30
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damn the press shit me to tears.
for sure the oil companies are fueling this (cheap I know).
What they need to do is start selling pure ethanol on a separate bowser so we can tune out cars to it and be done with it. Its got more power per litre than gasoline, cleaner and renewable to boot.
The only reason they havent done this is everyone would be drinking ethanol and coke's 
Someone needs to develop some tricky fuel filler neck so you cant do dodgies
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Thu, 19 December 2002 12:14
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There are a few reason to why they havent converted to ethanol
Anyone else who did chemistry this year for HSC would know
we got told the "Advantages and Disadvantages of the use of Ethanol" numnerous and numerous times
Ta
Mani
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Registered:
October 2002
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Location:
Cabramatta
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Tue, 24 December 2002 12:34
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Dear BR1183,
I dont have a grudge against the arbitrary 10% mix of ethanol recommended by various organisations. I just feel rorted when scrupulous independent petrol stations in Sydney go over this limit, ie 20% mix, thus increasing the chance of all the associated problems since Australian cars are not tuned to accept this level.
What incenses me further is the Federal Government not taking any actions that are being lobbied from genuine interest groups, such as the NRMA. Furthermore, it looks blantantly obvious that they are doing this in favour of a major Liberal Party donor, which holds a virtual monopoly in ethanol production.
It's also interesting to note that the Woolworth's Petrol station in Liverpool has now put up a sign indicating that their petrol no longer has any ethanol mixed in it ever since this ethanol debate began.
Is it too much to ask to arbitrarily cap the mix to 10% and to also indicate whether ethanol is mixed for consumers to make a more informed choice when filling up? Until a legislation like this is enacted, consumers would be better off safe than sorry to boycott independent petrol stations that make no indication of the ethanol mix (if any).
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boycott Ethanol Outlets
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Tue, 24 December 2002 14:48
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People probably already know this but most fuel you get at the independant outlets is imported petroleum bi product of refined diesel from S.E. Asia as diesel is what most of their transport is geared for. The Mainstream Outlets (Caltex, Mobil, BP..) refine crude locally suited to our climate and standards so the differences go far beyond ethanol mix ratios. It's still not great but it's safer than your Red Spot/Nader/Aussie Petrol shit.
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