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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Fri, 15 July 2005 23:33
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Ok the story is 1jz, auto, HKS ta45s turbo, 65mm compressor .7AR, .9 turbine AR, running AEM wolf 3d that is doing fuel but stock ecu doing timing. Was running 98 octane and octane booster. Have 550's, FMIC, 3" piping, stock inlet manifold. Turbo is on trust manifold, trust 50mm ext gate and 4" dump pipe that goes to 3" at the cat.
What I am worried about is the difference between 12psi and 20psi is about 10rwkw? The dyno line that says 15 is actually 12.
What are peoples thoughts on this? The relatively smooth line indicates to me that the timing is not being pulled and that there isn't any detonation. I plan on checking the plugs today (new) and doing compression test also. BTW dyno was with 50+deg inlet temps, 95 deg water temp and in 2nd gear.
Also, I would have thought that a turbo like this would want to continue making power to the end of the rev range however it seems to drop off noticably. Thoughts?
Thanks
Chris
[Updated on: Fri, 15 July 2005 23:39]
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Fri, 15 July 2005 23:44
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dyno figures don't mean anything
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Heh I had to but with ^^ this in your sig, why are you asking.... 
As far as your prob goes, it does seem strange...
Good luck with finding the problem
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 00:50
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It would be useful to know the temperature and pressure in the manifold, so that you can calculate the MAF actually being generated.
Often winding up the boost like that increases the temperature significantly, so that the air density decreases.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLa w.html
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Location:
WA
Registered:
May 2005
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 00:56
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Big boost increases followed by small power gains are indicative of the turbo reaching and surpassing maximum efficiency. Im not familiar with a ta45, but im sure it cant be smaller than a GT2540, in which case i would doubt its your turbo becoming inefficient.
Im pretty sure the early VVTi systems can only change the inlet cam timing, usually from like 18deg to 8deg or something, and this is to extend the torque curve, and flatten it off at its peak instead of letting it drop off. Check that your cam timing is infact correct. Make sure there are no boost leaks (u may have inadvertently countered for these during the tuning). Perhaps you can infact run more boost on the turbo and it is yet to become highly efficient?
Btw, having a hot day will make a HUGE difference to power output, especially at high boost, and my inlet temps are far lower than urs. . .
on my IG-GTE (zorst + 15pounds boost + intake) i am usually sitting on 35 - 38 deg inlet temps on a 18 degree day. . . look into that too!
Can ur mechanic not make any suggestions?
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Location:
I wanna go Hawaiiiiii.......
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 01:14
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TA45 is a simply masssive turbo - the realm of single turbo big block v8's and drag rotaries.
It may be that it hasnt yet reached its efficiency.
Get a compressor map and do the sums - it may (GOD FORBID) even be too big for a street driven 1j 
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Location:
I wanna go Hawaiiiiii.......
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 01:17
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Just as a side note, a gt3540 will make a near vertical power line at about the same place (~4200 rpm, and still have enough top end to support 420 rwkw @ 2 Bar.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 02:37
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| bored wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 10:50 |
It would be useful to know the temperature and pressure in the manifold, so that you can calculate the MAF actually being generated.
Often winding up the boost like that increases the temperature significantly, so that the air density decreases.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLa w.html
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I do not know the exact inlet air temps (in manifold) but they were around 45-50deg. I think it went from 45-50ish when it went to 20psi. The pressure (boost) was being measured from the inlet manifold also.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 02:42
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| VeeP wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 10:56 |
Big boost increases followed by small power gains are indicative of the turbo reaching and surpassing maximum efficiency. Im not familiar with a ta45, but im sure it cant be smaller than a GT2540, in which case i would doubt its your turbo becoming inefficient.
Im pretty sure the early VVTi systems can only change the inlet cam timing, usually from like 18deg to 8deg or something, and this is to extend the torque curve, and flatten it off at its peak instead of letting it drop off. Check that your cam timing is infact correct. Make sure there are no boost leaks (u may have inadvertently countered for these during the tuning). Perhaps you can infact run more boost on the turbo and it is yet to become highly efficient?
Btw, having a hot day will make a HUGE difference to power output, especially at high boost, and my inlet temps are far lower than urs. . .
on my IG-GTE (zorst + 15pounds boost + intake) i am usually sitting on 35 - 38 deg inlet temps on a 18 degree day. . . look into that too!
Can ur mechanic not make any suggestions?
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Turbo is much larger that a T25 series turbo. It is a 65mm compressor wheel. Because of how large it is I wouldn't have thought it would be out of its efficiency. And add to the fact that HKS turbos are supposed to be modified Garrett items that are meant to work at higher boost levels.
My engine doesn't have VVTI but I will check cam timing and check for any boost leaks. I suppose it is possible that the turbo isn't in its efficieny zone yet but I suppose I am just a bit scared of running much more boost.
The day wasn't actually that hot but the engine bay got pretty hot very quickly and the power dropped immediately after this happened. Will check inlet air temps when I am out on the road.
Edit: oh yeah mechanic said must be a crap turbo. 
[Updated on: Sat, 16 July 2005 03:03]
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 02:43
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| Special Ed wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 11:14 |
TA45 is a simply masssive turbo - the realm of single turbo big block v8's and drag rotaries.
It may be that it hasnt yet reached its efficiency.
Get a compressor map and do the sums - it may (GOD FORBID) even be too big for a street driven 1j
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I have seen this turbo used on GTR's and have made 550rwhp. I wouldn't have thought that 100cc could make that much difference. I am going to search for a compressor map now.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 03:25
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Been searching for a compressor map and the only one I found was a garrett one and it was not the regular style map. Basically didn't tell me much at all. It seems getting data for this turbo is quite difficult.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 04:21
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why is the wolf not runing the ignition? not a V4 Pro?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 04:25
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No it isn't a v4 plus but that is not the reason. The crank angle sensor cannot be split between the wolf and the stock ecu. The stock ecu needs it to control the auto but this is going to be changed soon when I get the MV controller.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 04:44
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| Chris Davey wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 14:25 |
No it isn't a v4 plus but that is not the reason. The crank angle sensor cannot be split between the wolf and the stock ecu. The stock ecu needs it to control the auto but this is going to be changed soon when I get the MV controller.
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just use an ECT ecu from a MA70 if your auto has the line pressure controlled by a cable! or apparently the 900 series volvo used the same auto but non electronic (valve body swap)
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 05:33
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Don't really get what you are saying about the ma70 ecu?
I know about the volvo trannies but I can't imagine it would be very easy to find one. I know that the MV box works for my situation and they are pretty cheap plus then I will have full control over when it changes gears.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 05:47
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the ma70 has a seperate ecu for the auto transmission
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 05:56
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Definatley something wrong there man. My tuner says, every psi, usually adds 10rwkw, I didnt belive him, till I got boosted to 13psi (from 9psi)
My figures:
9psi: 179rwkw
13psi: 210rwkw
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 06:27
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thanks Allan, something to think about 
Shane: yep, I figured there was something wrong Could you please tell me what it is? 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 06:37
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the stock ecu is probably pulling fistfulls of advance out sensing the high boost levels
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 08:31
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Yeah I was thinking this could be possible so I added some octane booster to the usual BP Ultimate. I know it doesn't increase much over 98 but I thought I would try it anyway. I was planning to run a toluene mix to up the octane more.
You may be onto something there actually, as that would explain why the graph is still smooth and why it drops off in the top end.
From what I understand, turbo engines retard the timing a bit as the boost rises. I am not sure about 1jz's but 2jz's run 23deg advance at full boost if no detonation is sensed. Unfortunately, I can't tell what the ecu is doing as the numbers on the wolf are just bullshit numbers.
I think it is time to get rid of the stock ecu and see how that goes.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 08:36
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Damn, if I had an exhaust gas temp guage I could tell if it was retarding it or not because if it being retarded a heap the spark would be happening much closer to when the exhaust valve is opening and making the exhaust temps skyrocket. Damn it!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 08:49
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would be even better if you had an ECU that logged realtime behaviour to laptop - then you could see what it's doing regarding fuel use, temp, timing, boost, etc.
if you could record rpm, crank position and spark actvity (for one coil) then boost retard would probably be blindingly obvious.
just curious, does the factory ECU light up the check-engine lamp when boost limit is reached?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 09:11
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Yes that would be good. I don't think the wolf can do the logging of that stuff. You can see it as you go but I am not sure if it can log it. From what I have found it logs the maximum and minimum values on the hand controller.
I wasn't in the drivers seat so I couldn't see the check engine light but I will have a look next time the car is ready for a drive.
On a good note, I just have to get a GM 3 bar map sensor and I will be ready to go and datalog using the wideband o2. So something is working properly!
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 09:17
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One thing that makes me think it isn't the stock ecu pulling timing is that SICO1J has made over 400rwkw using the stock ecu. I have been told by a couple of people that the factory timing map is pretty good for single turbo 1jz's.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 11:07
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do the 1J's have crank pulley timing marks? is it possible to get a timing light onto the thing to se what the timing is actually doing?up unti 5300, it looks good (ie torque increasing), but above that torque decreases dramatically...
so either
a) not enough air going in (intake tract/manifold/filter restrictive?) FMIC is known to be able to flow enough? temp of inlet air increases dramatically around 5300?
b) exhaust is having hard time coping.. from the sound of it it should be ok.. but maybe wastegate is opening? did you check the boost levels as it spooled up?
c) not enough/too much fuel... AFR, even if not accurate, doesn't look nasty.. was going to suggest maybe plugs are not up to the job, but then you should see it on AFR?
d) timing whacky, being pulled out too much..or stock MAP sensor rooted?
since the power flattens out for so long, it looks like the mass of air going in may not be increasing past that point either due to temps (hotter air = more boost for same mass of air), or due to flow restriction (ie something reaching the limit of it's flow....
can you check timing real-time the old fashioned way?
put boost gauge before AND after the FMIC?
measure air temps before and after FMIC?
just a few (possibly crap) ideas
Cya,Stewart
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 11:15
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Did have the HKS specs but cannot find them now  Was rated at 550ps from memory for the 60mm trim , it could be closer to this
700ps 63 66.7 84.0 100 60 0.70 76 74.2 64.7
Might be worth posting the question on
http://i-supra.com/eve/ubb.x
Last time i spotted one of those turbos it was on the side of a rb30 , topped out at 660 flywheel hp at 1.0bar . Was tested at 1.2bar and lost power .
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 15:08
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| improvedae86 wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 21:15 |
Did have the HKS specs but cannot find them now Was rated at 550ps from memory for the 60mm trim , it could be closer to this
700ps 63 66.7 84.0 100 60 0.70 76 74.2 64.7
Might be worth posting the question on
http://i-supra.com/eve/ubb.x
Last time i spotted one of those turbos it was on the side of a rb30 , topped out at 660 flywheel hp at 1.0bar . Was tested at 1.2bar and lost power .
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Thanks for that info. that is very helpful! I am sorry but I am a little drunk now and was wondering what the numbers mean above? These ones "700ps 63 66.7 84.0 100 60 0.70 76 74.2 64.7 " I understand the 700ps bit but I am not sure exactly what the other numbers are referring to.
I was told that the ta45s is larger than the t04s and is rated at 650hp. The HKS ta51 is a little larger again and is rated at 700hp so that could be that figure there.
BTW 660 flywheel hp is bloody good for 1.0bar of boost! 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth.
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sat, 16 July 2005 16:04
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| KOFFEE-BLACK wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 13:56 |
Definatley something wrong there man. My tuner says, every psi, usually adds 10rwkw, I didnt belive him, till I got boosted to 13psi (from 9psi)
My figures:
9psi: 179rwkw
13psi: 210rwkw
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what he said, in the limited experience of sitting on the dyno's of a few cars it goes pretty much like that... 
one wrx, 21 psi = 500hpatw
31 psi = 602hpatw... 
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 02:37
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 21:07 |
do the 1J's have crank pulley timing marks? is it possible to get a timing light onto the thing to se what the timing is actually doing?up unti 5300, it looks good (ie torque increasing), but above that torque decreases dramatically...
so either
a) not enough air going in (intake tract/manifold/filter restrictive?) FMIC is known to be able to flow enough? temp of inlet air increases dramatically around 5300?
b) exhaust is having hard time coping.. from the sound of it it should be ok.. but maybe wastegate is opening? did you check the boost levels as it spooled up?
c) not enough/too much fuel... AFR, even if not accurate, doesn't look nasty.. was going to suggest maybe plugs are not up to the job, but then you should see it on AFR?
d) timing whacky, being pulled out too much..or stock MAP sensor rooted?
since the power flattens out for so long, it looks like the mass of air going in may not be increasing past that point either due to temps (hotter air = more boost for same mass of air), or due to flow restriction (ie something reaching the limit of it's flow....
can you check timing real-time the old fashioned way?
put boost gauge before AND after the FMIC?
measure air temps before and after FMIC?
just a few (possibly crap) ideas
Cya,Stewart
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I will see what I can do regarding the timing. I think I can get access to a timing light to check it out.
a)It is the standard intake manifold so it should be able to flow more than 200rwkw pretty easily. It is not the best but it is sufficien I would have though. Cooler has been used on many cars making a lot more power than mine is also so that should be ok I think.
b)It seems to take quite a while to spool and the boost comes in pretty gradual. Sits on 0psi for a bit and around 4000rpm starts to build slowly and then increases quickly from there.
c)It is rich. I have checked out the plugs and they are indicate it being rich. They are the recommended plugs for 1j's now gapped to .7mm.
d)could be the timing but will have to check. It is using the wolf internal map sensor and I think that should be ok. I don't understand how the map sensor affects the power up top. If it is reading the correct amount of boost then it should be ok. It was reading the same as my boost guage.
Also, I have just done the compression check and it came back with 165-170 in all cylinders so that is good.
Also, Allan: how would the situation change if I was to use an ma70 gearbox ecu because I would assume that it would need the same signals inputted as my current ecu. The problem is that the ecu requires signals to change the gearbox and the wolf needs the same signal to do timing.
Thanks for the help guys
I am going to go and check that my o2 is still reading the same as the Motec one and then go and do some logging and check it out. Once I have got the a/f's sorted and checked other stuff I will put it on the dyno again. But I am going to a different dyno that is shootout and does it in 3rd gear.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 02:40
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forgot to ask, is it ok to feed pressure into the cooler pipes without the engine running to check for boost leaks?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 03:28
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| Chris Davey wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 12:37 |
Also, Allan: how would the situation change if I was to use an ma70 gearbox ecu because I would assume that it would need the same signals inputted as my current ecu. The problem is that the ecu requires signals to change the gearbox and the wolf needs the same signal to do timing.
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no it does not!
the L1 L2 L3 inputs can be replaced with some creative throttle position sensor mounting of a "direct type" throttle postion sensor
all the info you need is here
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h16.pdf
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 06:26
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I'm guessing boost leak, or a wastegate not working properly...
That and the fact that the stock ECU would be pulling timing out for sure...
http://www.adaptronic.com.au might be a bit of help once you get to the point of wanting to go for a full ECU to control the fuel and timing... Unless you just upgrade the Wolf...
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 07:32
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Is it missing at all at the top end (where the graph drops off), A friend has just put a T70 on his VVTi 1JZ and it was blowing out the spark at high RPM with the 18psi he was running, he regapped the plugs and it solved the prob. for now.
Are you running stock coils & ignitor?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 09:19
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| Chris Davey wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 12:40 |
forgot to ask, is it ok to feed pressure into the cooler pipes without the engine running to check for boost leaks?
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Anyone know that answer to this?
Kyosho:Can there be a boost leak when the boost is being measured from the intake manifold. If it was being measure in the cooler pipes for example there could be an undetectable leak because it happens after it is measured. I can't see how there can be a leak if it is measured from intake manifold.
I don't need a new ecu or an upgraded wolf I just need a different controller for the auto so the wolf can use the signal. I may look into the ma70 ecu but I think there are advantages of the MV shift box because it is then basically a manual car that changes quickly.
e30-323ti: I didn't notice it missing. It sounded quite good and very smooth. The plugs were at .8mm and I now have them at .7mm. I am running stock coils and igniter. Have been told that there is no point in upgrading coils. They are the same as 2j ones and if they are good for 1500hp then they should be ok I think I will need an AEM CDI or a HKS DLI to boost the spark though. It is in waste spark mode. I don't really think it is a lack of spark that is causing it to drop off at the moment. I am leaning towards the ecu pulling the timing.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 13:49
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just thought i'd thread transfer this quote.. sounds familiar
| Quote: |
Onboost
Re: Post your 0-100 and 1/4 mile times Wed, 23 March 2005 23:55
hey pplz thought ud like to know we the cressida on sunday at heathcote
11.5@118mph not bad the 1jz
street radial slicks
we also had a big valve spring problem, boost was holding them open, ther was no power increase from 14-25 psi. 1jz gt30,auto
will be going out soon to calder if the valves springs hold another few passes, if not 2jz here we come 10's no worries!
GO the TOYOTA this cressi is getting built for all those vl's, still standard un open engine.
Hilux SR20DET 235kw@rw
MERC C180 TURBO 220kw@rw
PACER BIG-BLOCK TUNNEL-RAMED will see soon!
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Sun, 17 July 2005 21:19
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Shit that is no good.
How did they diagnose that it was the valve springs and how can I do the same? I can check cam clearances but the only way I can think of check valve springs is to pull them out.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Mon, 18 July 2005 09:54
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since the 1JZ uses buckets, there is fuck all u can do, cept remove the head and strip the head and check the springs
but i'd be checking the cam timing and check the valve lash too
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Mon, 18 July 2005 22:35
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Ok, I am going to do a leakdown test, check cam timing and valve lash. Thanks guys.
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Location:
Osama's hideout
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 01:30
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 17 July 2005 23:49 |
just thought i'd thread transfer this quote.. sounds familiar
| Quote: |
Onboost
Re: Post your 0-100 and 1/4 mile times Wed, 23 March 2005 23:55
hey pplz thought ud like to know we the cressida on sunday at heathcote
11.5@118mph not bad the 1jz
street radial slicks
we also had a big valve spring problem, boost was holding them open, ther was no power increase from 14-25 psi. 1jz gt30,auto
will be going out soon to calder if the valves springs hold another few passes, if not 2jz here we come 10's no worries!
GO the TOYOTA this cressi is getting built for all those vl's, still standard un open engine.
Hilux SR20DET 235kw@rw
MERC C180 TURBO 220kw@rw
PACER BIG-BLOCK TUNNEL-RAMED will see soon!
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milan is the only person to suffer that, and after talking to milan about it lengths, i feel this may not have been the problem.
i mean he needed 100hp of gas to run 118 mph, my setup which was basically the same ran 119 mph consistantly without gas.
andrew supra, jamies ute, and my car haven't had this problem chris is suffering.
i do think the turbo is to big for a stock engine, but that wouldnt be why this is happening.
im thinking rooted engine, or something with the ecu setup. drop me a pm with your number chris i'll make some calls and i talk to you over the next few days.
edited to fix my fugged spelling/grammar
[Updated on: Tue, 19 July 2005 01:32]
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 02:36
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my apologies.. thought it may have been relevant without doing background check
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 03:00
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no need for apologies mate. Any suggestions are welcome. There is obviously something wrong and anyone giving suggestions is being helpful in my books
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 03:40
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It's not about valve clearances it's about valve spring rate and you could quite easily have some tired/lazy valve springs there that won't hold the boost. I have seen this in all types/makes of engine and while the 1J might not be particularly prone to this prob that doesn't mean yours isn't suffering it. Very hard to diagnose though but the engine will sound flat and on the road it will rev but won't pull....kinda feels the same as when you cam timing is out.
It's the only thing i can think of as the boost difference means there has to be a flow increase regardless of where the turbo is in it's eff range. More air has to equal more hp if all is sweet with the engine, fuel and timing...ergo something is amiss with the engine.
got a pic of the turbo just to confirm 100% it's a TA45?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:07
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That's the best I have got at the moment.
It has HKS 0.9 imprinted on the turbine housing and Garrett 0.72 on the compressor housing. I can take a pic of the ID tag if you want?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:15
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do you still have that pod like that sucking hot air in?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:19
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Yes it is yet to be enclosed but it is fed from a bonnet scoop and a lower CAI pipe. I realise this will be shit on a dyno as they can't simulate the same airflow but once you are moving I think it will work well. Much better once it is enclosed with the only available air being from scoop and CAI though.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:28
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THe air temp sensor is in the inlet manifold IIRC. I can't datalog with the wolf, it only reads the min and max figures. I do know that it was 35deg at night when I took it for a drive. Got up to 50 on the dyno. More conclusive tests will be done later when the thing is running right
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:30
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50c is hot i would try some ducting and dyno it again
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:42
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I have ducting but it isn't direct ducting. The pod is on the turbo and tube is pointed at it but it can still suck other air which is hot. I am going to get an aluminium enclosure for it with heat insulation on the inside and run the CAI tube through there and leave the top open so it sucks air from scoop.
It is just another thing on the "to do" list. Got a fair bit of stuff to sort it seems.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:50
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Yeah well that looks big enough to be a TA45 so i'll just take it that it is.
You're not running that dud looking filter are you?
Anyways, as i indicated before you can't get a boost increase without a comensurate increase in flow as boost just represents the air the engine can't swallow.....and i doubt that you are off the eff map of that turbo at the flows and boost you are running. Therefore i think the valve float (boost holding the valves open) is a likely cause of your prob.
The question now is how to confirm that 100% so you don't throw money away? In the past we have had the engine stripped looking for answers and testing the valve spring rate has always been a dead obvious answer....testing in engine is trickier but there may still be a gauge that can do this test without having to pull the head off?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 04:57
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Yeah, I think that is what the leakdown test does. Pump air into the cylinders and it gives you a percentage of air leaking. 12% or so is acceptable. That is what I plan to do tonight.
Also, no I got rid of the old HKS death mushroom!
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 05:27
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No no a leak down will tell you nothing about valve spring rate. If your valves are not seating then a leak down will show that but that's not the prob i'm referring to.
What happens when valve springs go soft is that the boosted intake charge can actually hold the valve open...the extra 20psi you are applying to the valve on top of all the other forces going on are enough that the rate can't counter it and the valve stays open and doesn't seal the combustion chamber. The fix is new or stiffer valve springs.
A mate with a 4AGTE suffered this exact prob recently. Big boost over 5K and the valves wouldn't seal. Less boost and/or less revs and no probs. The fix was new valve springs...his were just a bit tired.
You need to check the valve spring rate ie measure how much force it takes to compres them a certain amount and compare to the factory specs. i suspect this won't be easy with the valves in place but there may be a gauge to do this?
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 05:36
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Hmm, ok then. If anyone knows of a guage that can do this it would be very handy. I wonder if I am the in the minority with this or if this is infact a 1jz problem but most people don't run big singles with big boost so never find out about it.
I really hope there is a guage that can check this as I don't want to pull the head off.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 05:51
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Apparently the spring seat pressure is an issue in boosted XR6T's as well.
I have a "Snap-On" valve spring compressor that can be used on the head without removing the springs. Just need to hold the valve in the head (heaps of ways of doing this) so that you can remove a few springs and get them tested without removing the head.
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 06:01
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there's got to be a way of testing without removing them.. problem is the forces involved.. need to pul cams but..
what is stock spring force at seat and at sayy.. 10mm compression?
if it is something around 100-150 lbs, then you could rig up a 50-70kg load or load equivalent, and measure that way...
quick vague idea i had was to use a long beam, say, 1m long, and pivot it maybe 20cm past valve bucket. shape point of contact on beam to not damage bucket.
then use a spring scale and pull down on the end of the beam to supply certain, which i smultiplied by the lever action... also work out weight of beam on valve by suspending by spring scale first...
and then measure deflection for given weight/force/... or work out force for given deflection
only issue is the pivot point...
maybe removing aint so bad .. bit of rope down the spark plug hole never hurt anyone
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 06:10
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Hmm, that sounds like a bit of a mission Stu.
I have never actually removed valve springs before, so is it possible to do without taking the head off or not? Last time I was pulling the other engine apart we got down to taking the buckets and shims off. Wasn't quite sure how to go about getting the next section off.
Thanks
Chris
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 06:51
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i've only done it in K series and it still sucks..
Bbaacchhyy's tool is the one to use if any i think.. safer for you and the car
as far as specs go.. found this (looking for head pics)
http://www.suprasport.nl/index.php?main_page=produ ct_info&products_id=711
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These valve-springs allow up to 9000Rpm. In combination with the shim bucket conversion you can run even higher Rpm. The valve-springs are compatible with stock camshafts and 264 or 272-degree shafts. More specifications: Installed height = 1.420" > Seat-pressure 71lbs Installed height = 1.390" > Seat-pressure 75lbs Installed height = 1.360" > Seat-pressure 80lbs Open pressure 130lbs @ 1.070" Open pressure 135lbs @ 1.040" Open pressure 144lbs @ 1.010" Coil-bind = 2,31cm
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http://www.suprasport.nl/images/springs.jpg
i gave up lookinmg for head pics
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 07:22
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Chris-sit tight on any mechanical work for the time being. In my opinion it's an odds-on bet it's your spark timing. The likelyhood of there being a mechanical issue here is vanishingly small. Although you mention someone making 400rwhp on a stock ECU, you aren't running a stock ecu. You have duties split between the wolf and the stock ECU, which may be affecting the stock ECU and the way it times the motor. Considering the size of the turbo, piping, FMIC etc, even the 182 at 15pound sounds a bit low.
A compressor wheel that big will be swallowing gob loads of air at 15psi. To give you an example, my 1FZ with the 66mm comp wheel GT42 was pushing 320rwkw on just under 15psi. The TA wheel shouldn't be too far behind.
If the engine was actually struggling to 182@15psi and the timing was normal (I'm guessing 19deg+ or so on 15psi in a 1J should be around the mark), the blower should be virtually in surge condition at the (relatively) minor mass flow required for that power level.
Given your intake temps were in a perfectly acceptable range, it suggests that the turbo was in fact injesting the craploads of air it should at 15psi. Also however, my guess is that the spark timing was so retarded that the engine was producing far less power than it could have with that amount of air going through it. Get control over the spark to confirm or deny the issue before you start pulling bits off.
At least you now know it all works mechanically. You could disconnect the auto trans altogether and run the wolf for the spark as a trial. With all wires disconnected the trans will shift 1-3-4 in 1st, 2nd and 3rd(drive) on the stick respectively. This is fine for acceleration runs in 2nd on the shifter as the box will be in 3rd, or 1:1. It won't hurt the box as long as you dont hammer it from 1st to 2nd(on the stick), as the box will actually slip through 2nd on its way from 1st to 3rd-frying shit as it does so(I know....)
Have you ordered the shift box yet, and does your trans have a cable coming out of it (line pressure cable)?
(do you want me to ask mike when I'm there next?)
Sean
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Location:
Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 07:57
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| Special Ed wrote on Sat, 16 July 2005 11:17 |
Just as a side note, a gt3540 will make a near vertical power line at about the same place (~4200 rpm, and still have enough top end to support 420 rwkw @ 2 Bar.
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I can vouch for this. Tried dynoing my new setup on the weekend. Graph went pure vertical at 4000rpm (GT3540R on a 2JZ).
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 8psi extra, 10rwkw extra?
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Tue, 19 July 2005 10:43
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Thanks for that info. Sean. Very helpful as always. I haven't ordered shift box yet, was going to ring up tomorrow. Yes my auto has the load sensing cable. It is setup as standard although some guys were talking about locking it into positiong for increased line pressure.
Soarer: Are you just trying to rub it in!
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