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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 02:57
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This is a completely Theoretical Question and is part of some research I'm trying to do.
In a race spec engine is it possible to get in the area of 550Hp at the engine in a reliable form from an 18R-G(EU) turbo. Note this isn't a street engine so Alternative fuels is a factor.
And what would ned to be done/how could this be achieved?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 03:27
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Yup, not even that hard really. The bottom end is pretty well bullet proof so for this level of hp i wouldn't even change rods. Forgies of course at around 8.5:1, 272 inlet cam with a 282 exhaust 11m lift for both, ARP head studs (stock head bolts are a weakness), big arse turbo and good engine prep. If the have the yammie head then not much porting required. My 18RGT would rev to 8000rpm with a custom flywheel and a knife edge on the crank wouldn't hurt. The rest is just good engine balancing, assembly.
A few dollars but nothing outrageous and certainly nothing particularly special to get the numbers you are after. A few 800-900hp 18RGT used to kick a round the European drag circuit a few years back and they were nothing special in terms if engine builds.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 04:09
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Whoa there...i'm talking reliable street race. As a full competition rally engine like the 16v...you are talking a whole different kettle of fish...same for ciruit if you are talking serious racing not just club sprints.
Where would you genuinely race a 18RG except in Appendix J, in which case it couldn't be turboed anyway?
As for the 16v it was an awesome engine but being gear driven cams drive i suspect extended big revs could have been a problem. I found one in Finland for sale about 10yrs ago.....10K aussie before import, a tad outta my league.
nah the build i was talking about was for fast street, drags and the occassional run around the track for a bit of fun.
A full house engine is doable but like any 'proper' race engine the cost of the ancilleries is pretty serious, not to mention the build spec itself.
Put it in perspective though...my 'street race prepped' 18RGT would do as many laps of wakefield as i could handle and not even blink at the effort...they are strong engines.
PS i forgot to mention i also ran a TRD oil pump and RX7 oil cooler.
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Location:
Northwestern Sydney
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 04:21
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Yeah understandable. However looking at the race results the Group 5 car ran in, As far as I can find ATM it raced in 8 races finished 3 (one 1st) and retired after 4 laps in somthing like 3 other races.
I'm sure 4 laps of hard racing isn't going to kill an engine.
I'm just pointing the finger, if the bottom end can take that power maybe that 16V head isn't all it's reported to be.
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 08:57
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550 hp on std rods ,not bloody likely paying someone $20000.00 to build 1 to hold together priceless 
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 09:14
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i tend to agree with Justen's comments on the strength of the rods.... they are pretty short and damn meaty, it would take some seriously high rpm and some failures down the line somewhere else to destroy one of those glorious tractor-engineered rods!!
Simon, i would not so much point fingers at different components of the engine causing it to fail in a full-fledged race situation... full-on racing pushes the absolute limits of ALL components of an engine, and when you are pushing 9000+rpm with spastic driving and the harshest of conditions, the odd failure here and there cannot really be contributed to a singular flaw or fault (unless blatant!).
In my mind, they were just unlucky back then 
If you are actually considering building a serious HP 18RGTE, join the queue 
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 09:42
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I have got a heap of photo's of the 16v, and also the tiwn plug 18rg. maybe some info. i am only going to find it if u ask cuz its tucked away. Let me know
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 09:48
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toysport have a few 152E's for sale
if u want that type of power a dry sump would be a wise investment too
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 10:17
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the weak link is the rod bolts ,we turboed a 18rg back in 87 with big truck intercooler and suck through 48mm webbers it made 360 hp at the fly wheel and we had to change the big ends after each round of the state race series and we were using the std rods with ARP rod bolts also the block used to twist so much from the power it made we had to line bore the mains in the block at the end of the season ,we also were looking for a 153e block as they were made out of stronger casting ,but we gave up with the turbo with all the trouble it was causing ,breaking cranks cracking forge pistons because of block flex you name it
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Location:
townsville NQLD
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 10:37
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| CelicaRA45 wrote on Mon, 18 July 2005 20:17 |
rod bolts also the block used to twist so much from the power it made we had to line bore the mains in the block at the end of the season
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shit!!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 16:11
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Hmmm, broken cranks and cracked pistons don't sound too good either.
That settles me on no more than 200KW at the flywheel when I finally get mine built. It's more than an old model SS commo, so that's enough.
Just out of interest, CelicaRA45, what pistons were you using?
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Mon, 18 July 2005 21:49
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As to the unreliabilitty of the 16V 18RG in racing, I'd be pointing my finger at bad management. The technology just wasn't there to control a serious turbo charged engine at the time.
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 00:17
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Now you're basing the reliability of the 152e on a single series of races. It's mentioned the 152e was very successful in many forms of motorsport over it's time in the spot light.
If you want a top quality motor able to withstand (as quoted in many articles) 600hp for endurance racing; 800hp for harder racing and variants between 1000-1200hp for the other racing spectacles, then you can't look past a 503e. Worth at about $15K and spare parts being almost impossible, that might be a bit hard to begin racing one again in this day and age and the same goes for a 152e engine.
Where are these motors now and even if you had one running would you dare race it risking it's very existence?
Just my 2c worth...
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 06:05
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usually if it a circuit race and you stop after 4 laps, it more likely to be damage to the diff,gearbox or clutch from the start or if good traction you can jump cam belt teeth etc etc{yes the 18 has a chain}. you can get 500hp out of a 18rg but it will have a limited life.more power you take out of something, the less its life, is the best way to look at modfied engines.you spend big dollars on race preping and parts to get the engine to stay together longer. so if you put 500hp threw a fairly stock motor how long it will last is anyones guess. one small hiccup in the fuel or timing and the thing will lunch itself.its not hard getting big numbers out of most engines,the hard part is making them stay together.
mick
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 13:26
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| kingmick wrote on Tue, 19 July 2005 16:05 |
its not hard getting big numbers out of most engines,the hard part is making them stay together.
mick
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absolutely... no point getting 800hp from an R motor if it does it for all of 3 seconds 
it's not power that costs, it's the extended lifetime of the parts.. and ALL parts have a limited lifespan..
i guess you can think of it as lifetime decreases by the square of the rpm (or power) since the loading increass in that fashion.. and valve traisn once you get past 8000rpm start to generate some nice loads also....
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 13:45
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 19 July 2005 23:26 |
and valve traisn once you get past 8000rpm start to generate some nice loads also....
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thats right, theres a NASCAR museum in the states, it has a cutaway engine, which has a cutaway cam/head on it too, they can spin it to the 7500/8000rpm redline via a small motor off to the side, apparently u cant touch the tappet cover after a few seconds cause of the heat generated by the valve springs
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 13:54
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Speaking of engine life, think top fuellers 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 13:58
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| Mr DOHC wrote on Tue, 19 July 2005 23:45 |
thats right, theres a NASCAR museum in the states, it has a cutaway engine, which has a cutaway cam/head on it too, they can spin it to the 7500/8000rpm redline via a small motor off to the side, apparently u cant touch the tappet cover after a few seconds cause of the heat generated by the valve springs
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yar, why extra oil squirters are used for valve train cooling...
fine for us street kiddies where you have to stop every now and again, but to keep even a dinosaur NASCAR engine together, at max rpm.. for like an hour or two? scary thought!!
(engine builder to metallurgist " we just need it to do this for this long"... "you want WHAT?" )
mm topfuellers... mobile metal recycling machines
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 14:05
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Imagine if the NASCAR engine guys were able to use the kind of revs they'd like to try, rather than the enforced limit?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 14:48
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whats the max rpm for 18RGUE when your giving it to it?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 21:16
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max rev can be were it fails or max revs can be were you can take it for 10 secounds before it fails etc etc with a turbo 18rg id be building with lower comp and higher boost and keep the revs lower,the extra torque means you can pull a gear earlier.by not reving it as hard it will last longer.
we build identical engines to nascar for sportsedans,exept we use injection. the sb2.2 chevs cost between $80k-120k to build.they last one race or about the 800-1000km. a nascar engine lasts longer doing oval racing because it stays around a set rev range,the same motor in a circuit motor wouldnt last aslong because of engine braking etc.
mick
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Tue, 19 July 2005 22:57
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Yeah, I'm familiar with this list of engines, but i read the top list, (Collector/Race Engines for example) as having 3 of the 503e motors in total, not having unlimited supply of the 503e motor in those configurations described for sale.
I emailed TRDUSA the other day and questioned whether the 152e and/or 503e motors are still available for purchasing and whether they're able to support the motor for spare parts. I'm yet to receive a reply.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 550 HP 18R-G - Possible??
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Wed, 20 July 2005 04:15
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| 7mgtema71 wrote on Wed, 20 July 2005 08:57 |
I emailed TRDUSA the other day and questioned whether the 152e and/or 503e motors are still available for purchasing and whether they're able to support the motor for spare parts. I'm yet to receive a reply.
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they probably get the same email a few times a day from all over the world!! But still a valid question in my mind!
im now very interested to see where i get to with my 18RG and how long it lasts. Time to get stuck into it i think
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