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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 01:24
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I have an AE102 Corolla Seca. Now I have been doing a bit of research and found out that the AE101 and AE102 are the same except for the 4A and 7A motors and 13" and 14" wheels. The rest of the car is the same.
Now I want more peformance, I currently have a 7AFE, completely stock.
I have been doing some research and for performance upgrades I have a few options.
1. Turbo my 7AFE, now I would love to do this, as I'm starting with a .2L advantage over the 4A, and from what I heard/read, with a good tune I could run 10psi on stock internals. But my motor has done 200ks, so for piece of mind I would prefer to rebuild it, and strengthen it at the same time with stronger pistons and stronger rods. To turbo it without the price of the rebuild would be about $2500 (inc turbo, manifold, PB ECU, tune). Now if I go for this option, where do I get stronger internals from?
2. Buy a 4AGE 20v (Silvertop?) (AE101 to comply with the emission standards). Now I wouldn't mind turboing it, but I think that the internals aren't that strong in these so I have to use 4AGZE internals? Would I need a complete AE101 halfcut or could I use just a motor and harness?
3. Buy a 4AGZE (Again AE101 to comply). Now how much power can you get out of the SC12? I'd prefer to keep boost down to 10-12psi, as it seems to be safer to keep a reserved (You seem to end up with less problems in the long run), then to go crazy with boost. Another option would be to turbo it? I like this option. Again would I need a hlaf cut or could I use just a motor and harness?
4. Build a 7AGTE, this is probably the ultimate option? Use a 20V head, strengthen the internals (i'm not sure where i'd source the stronger parts, or what I could use (ie could i use 4AGZE pistons?)) and then run a bit of boost 
What are your thoughts and suggestions?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 01:47
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stay 1.8L, there's no replacement for displacement 
7AGTE sounds good 4AG's are easy to source these days and are heaps cheap. you can probably grab a head for $150
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 07:07
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I had a thought, the 20V 4AGE made 123kw and the last 16V made 100kw. So If I was to strap the 20V head onto my 7AFE, what sort of power could I expect?
What sort of power could I expect if I strengthend the rods and pistons and raised the redline up to 7500 or so where the 4AGE 20V is?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 11:34
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What sort of power could I expect if I strengthend the rods and pistons and raised the redline up to 7500 or so where the 4AGE 20V is?
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I know this has been put up a few thousand times....
http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbocars.html
He uses ARGO rod in this, we've used eagle's
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 11:52
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the 20V 4AGE made 123kw and the last 16V made 100kw
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I also forgot to tell you, the AE111 came as a ZZE11 in Europe, Japan and US ie AE111 fitted with a 1ZZ-FE and 6-spd Gearbox... Could source the engine mounts etc which all bolt directly up to an AE102 execept the passager side top mount (Top gearbox mount) and fit a 2ZZ-GE which has 141kw on tap... is lighter, requires no engineers cert (same litres and since OZ delivered, meets ADR, etc) These pull over 100kw at the wheels with very minor mods!!
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 12:48
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| Johnny wrote on Tue, 09 August 2005 21:52 |
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the 20V 4AGE made 123kw and the last 16V made 100kw
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I also forgot to tell you, the AE111 came as a ZZE11 in Europe, Japan and US ie AE111 fitted with a 1ZZ-FE and 6-spd Gearbox... Could source the engine mounts etc which all bolt directly up to an AE102 execept the passager side top mount (Top gearbox mount) and fit a 2ZZ-GE which has 141kw on tap... is lighter, requires no engineers cert (same litres and since OZ delivered, meets ADR, etc) These pull over 100kw at the wheels with very minor mods!!
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Sweet I like that idea. I never knew about that.
Any idea where to look for the engine mounts? And the passenger side top mount what do you do about it? make a custom one?
I'm not at all familular with the 2ZZGE but all I know thats the motor the Corolla Sportivo's use. How strong are they? Ie if I decided I wanted more power that NA setup couldn't provide value for money and wanted to go turbo'd can the handle it?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 09 August 2005 23:58
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Any idea where to look for the engine mounts?
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Truefully, No, but ATM we're looking at trying to get a whole car here as they are a 2 door hatch... would look good parked next to the AE101 FXGT seca... Do a web search and best bet would be the US or find an import spare part place like castle Hill toyota here in sydney and see if they can get them. Then find a Front cut, there are a few starting to pop up now and remember that it is also a Celica engine too.
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And the passenger side top mount what do you do about it? make a custom one?
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Modify or make one up, gut feeling would be to do the same as you would do for the 20V 6-spd.
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How strong are they?
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They're a toyota, so it would be hard to kill!! Well the clubs current record for <1.8l N/A is 128kw@ wheels (which would be close to 180-190kw@flywheel!!) and this is a sportivo 2ZZGE. Running a low pressure turbo really wouldn't be too hard either see some of the sites in the states. What ever way, get some GZE twin spots or better on the front! Also consider that the AE102 is smaller/lighter than these too, so 
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 02:06
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Well if i were to play with an AE102, here's my options....
1: 4A-GE 20V silvertop
2: 4A-GZE straight conversion
3: 7A-GTE build.... replace rods with stronger items, install GZE pistons, E58 lsd box + Shafts, chuck on smallport 16V head, chuck on 100kW manifold, chuck on turbo and the rest of the normal gear
4: 2ZZ-GE - this is only if i were feeling silly for an N/A beasty, and had lotsa cash. Celica f/cut, 6spd, all the custom work required...... and suspension!! full conversion to superstrut suspension (not just brakes) included....
5: Give up and buy a real car 
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 02:51
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5: Give up and buy a real car
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option 1: TTR sportivo, now fitted with viscous center diff and Front/Rear LSD's (Only $80K in kit form or $120K ready to race..hmm GT-4 corolla, make me drool everytime)
option 2: Last of the WRC Corolla minus Restrictors, Bargin at US$150,000!
Guess I'll have to stick with the 1/100 models sitting on the shelf ATM.
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 04:12
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[quote
He uses ARGO rod in this, we've used eagle's[/quote]
G'day Johnny
I'm wondering if you were able to find an Eagle rod that suited without needing any re- machining & if you're happy with them. Does the quality seem O.K.? I've never seen one, but they're certainly well priced. Thank you.
emmac.
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 14:01
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I'm wondering if you were able to find an Eagle rod that suited without needing any re- machining & if you're happy with them
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The last engine builder sourced them and yes there was some machining done to the crank. This needed to be done either way as it was scored from a bearing/rod failure of Number 4. So far we haven't touched the engine, which has now up to it's third rally season and also took out the class (1601-2000cc) in the NSW rally championship.... It's had a hiding, so off to retirement (as we speak) and it's being replaced by a 20V to have the car fall under F16 rules....
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 14:13
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put a 20V head on it and whack a turbo on the side.
1.8L 20V turbo...mmmmm nice
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Wed, 10 August 2005 23:20
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G,Day Johnny
Thanks for that. A most successful combination by the results. Obviously no weaknesses with the Eagle rods then. Congratulations & good luck. Thank you.
emmac.
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Thu, 11 August 2005 05:14
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How do these eagle rods cost? And what pistons did you use? 4AGZE?
With a decent tune could the 7AFE handle 10psi on stock internals?
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Thu, 11 August 2005 13:22
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How do these eagle rods cost? And what pistons did you use? 4AGZE?
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Ok... here's the history of the engine (sorry it's gunna be long!)
My car isn't turboed as it ain't allowed; rules state what it comes with in OZ, or otherwised must be proved and then approved, is what it has to run, unless your a manufacturer(ie TTR). So it does run some heft comp (12.5:1)and it only will run on fuels with 100+ RON (best result was with ET racing fuel 102) redline was set at a safe level of 7500rpm which it handled OK with stock rods for about a year and half before It went BANG at wakefield park durning a track day.... I will admit a few times on that day we we're having some severe oil surge hassles and certainly looked like it when it was stripped down. At this stage it had only forged pistons which were saved, but still ran the same comp. From memory (it has been six years since I bought them!) they were JE blanks which then had to be machined to the required comp and valve angle cut out, these costed $1100 with rings etc, these were orignally fitted by me and bought from a guys in windsor which longer exists. The Rod's came later. I have no Idea on cost, where they were purchased, etc or what part number.. as I didn't have time to stuff around building an engine as work had me flying around the world at the time. So that rebuild was passed on to an engine builder I knew. Ended up costing $3500, which included removing the engine from the car, parts, labour and I didn't really care about cost I just wanted it done. And really I think I could have had better. Yep the thing made heaps of torque (flat from 1500rpm to redline 200NM!!) but it made no power and never rev out as hard as my first one, most likely the cam combo he chose, again I have know Idea of the finer details what he did. This still give me the S@%TS!! So I will never recommend him to anyone. Best result ever was 105Whp@6500(75Kw) so there wasn't much point reving it past the stock redline, but it was interesting to find out tha Denise Colloin's VTi-R Civic that Won F16 last year only made 1Hp more!! but at 8,000RPM!!! and it show when we ran Preimier state as she only just beat us.... Man, who ever built that should be shot, as the standard one's I have helped tune make make hell of a lot more than that.. they were not impressed that when mine went on the rollers straight after there's to prove it...Then a very heated debate started  well enough on that subject.
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With a decent tune could the 7AFE handle 10psi on stock internals?
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I can only think of one man that could answer this question, Mark Yager, Yager Performance Alstonville. Any Motor, any combination, for any make he's the man on the do's/don'ts. His repuation is very high in the racing community as just about every winning kind of race car runs his engines or parts developed by him. Ph (02) 6628 0247. I personally haven't spoken to him or meet him, but a few people I do know run 4AGE's, 20V both 1.6 and 1.8 versions and even a few 3SGE (incl beams) they all haul arse.
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Sat, 20 August 2005 11:19
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Ok, I think might end up taking the tested and tried method of performance upgrade, a 4A conversion. Either an AE101 4AGE 20V or a AE101 4AGZE. I would love to keep the 1.8L but it has done 205k's already, so it probably need a rebuild before boosting it. And the other problem is the rods, as i would need custom, and they run into big money. Whereas the 4AG's are a performance motor already, and they like to rev (unlike the 7A)
I have seen a fair few AE101 (Silvertop) 20V's halfcuts for around $1800
I haven't found any AE101 GZEs though. Where can i get one?
Is a 4AGZE 20V a good/easy option?
Also do I need a halfcut or can i just get a engine and ECU?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Sat, 20 August 2005 11:35
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the 7afe's weakness is it's rods.... they apparently spew out the side of the block above 6500-7000rpm - much unlike any of the 4A-G*** series engines.
unfortunately 4A-GZE's front cuts are becoming rare and expensive - almost to the point that it's worth building your OWN forced induction 4A-G engine and sticking that in instead...
the 4A-GE 20valve silvertop is a decent motor, and a good upgrade for your tired 7afe. I just finished putting one into an AE92 last weekend and liked the all round driveability of the 1.6L... and found revving the poopoo out of it to be hell fun!
If you were to consider doing either of these conversions, i would definitely opt for a front cut - there are so many other performance parts on the car which can just be "bolted" onto yours, and it makes working things out 10 times easier.
One thing i would DEFINITELY do if it were me doing an AE101 20V conversion is putting the superstrut suspension into the aussie AE102. This isnt as easy as it sounds... but the results would be more than worth it....
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Sat, 20 August 2005 11:58
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Yeah, I know thats the problem with the 7A 
I don't think I would be able to use a AE92 4AGZE could I? would it pass the emission laws for QLD (in an 97 AE102)?
Yeah the 20V Also looks tons better, it just looks a lot nicer motor Not that important but it is a plus
The 20V doesn't like boost does it? Could it handle a low boost 5-6psi turbo bolted on? 5-6psi should yield about 120kw (stock) + about 30-40kw so that would be 150-160kw?
Righto front count sounds like the go , is it possible to get a AE101 4AGE 20V with a LSD?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Sat, 20 August 2005 12:13
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nah - the only 20valve to get an LSD box was the blacktop AE111, which had some of teh 5sp and 6spd boxes with LSDs in them
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Sat, 20 August 2005 23:30
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How hard is it to get 150-160kw out of 20V?
I know that 20V is a high compression motor, hence how it gets the 120kw (over the 100kw 4AGE), but could I run a low boost, ie 5 or so psi, turbo to get 150kw or so? Or is it easier to get the extra 30kw or so N/A?
Some of my mates have the 3.5L Magna Sports, and one of them is down to a 14.66 1/4mile, so it would be nice to be able to beat him
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Mon, 22 August 2005 08:30
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bump
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Mon, 22 August 2005 08:47
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do not believe the "120kW" power output that toyota claims... these are inflated figures performed with no water pump, aircon, alternator (basically no ancillaries at all running off the engien).....
that said... a low boost turbo setup would work ok. But doing the same on a 100kW engine would work even better imho.
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Mon, 22 August 2005 09:06
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Well the GZE is probably a better option then? Any ideas where I can find an AE101 GZE (Halfcut)?
Also I don't think I can run a 16V GE in my car can I? Or is there one that I could use that would pass emission standards for my car?
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Location:
Coalstoun Lakes
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Tue, 23 August 2005 00:06
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I was talking to Tim from Raptor SC's again last night, he suggested I just stick with my 7AFE and turbo it like my first plan was.
He suggested I just get a shim for my head, (a thick head gasket) he said around a 1.7mm should bring the compression ratio from the standard 9.5:1 back to a bit more turbo friendly 9:1, he said if i could only get a 2mm, then get them and just use a bit more boost.
Any ideas where to get one of these and how much they are worth?
I'm aiming for 140-150kw, which I'm hoping should get me down into the low 14s, which should be an awesome street car, and should also allow me to bit those mitsi maggots a couple of my mates have
So to acheive that this is what i have got planned so far:
- Honda B16/18 Turbo Manifold, with a 7A exhaust flange.
- T25 (T28 too big?)/TD04 Or another suitable size turbo (I want one that will boost up reasonably quick but still give reasonable power. ie I don't want something that will spool up at 1500rpm but run out of puff very quickly and I also don't want one that has massive lag and needs 5500rpm to spool up)
- ECU Greddy E-manage or is there a better/cheaper ECU i should use? what are the microtek like?
- Bigger injectors, i'm not sure what i'll need here
- Possibly bigger fuel pump (again not sure here?)
- Basic Boost Controller
- Front Mount Intercooler
And hopefully with a decent tune the motor should be able to handle 10psi?
[Updated on: Tue, 23 August 2005 00:18]
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Location:
mona vale
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: AE102 performance options?
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Thu, 25 August 2005 04:13
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John
Can you advise where to get a TRD front engine mount for a AE102
I have bought Greg Lemmons Corolla and tried poly around the rubber without any success. Did not last 6 stages at the Bay.
Have you got the new car ready yet?
Chris Buckingham NSSCC
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