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Location:
Launceston
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:04
 
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mmm ok then, i give in...
i have friends that go to church... its funny i say "fuckin christ" they like "oooo, u cant say that" im like "yes i can"  i tell y athey are great friends
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:05
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:01 |
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 21:58 |
| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 21:54 |
EDIT:you're gonna have to better than that.^^ you still havent answered any of my questions or accounted for the flaw which you encouraged me to find. and it wasnt hard to find.
tom
yeah but this is more interesting
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that wasent a flaw, it was just jargon
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in other words.. "open to artistic interpretation" able to be bent to any particular religious whim at any given moment 
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your very good at putting words in my mouth but your not so in understanding.
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:07
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yeah im 1 of 2 non-christians at my work. some of my mates there are quite good to talk with on the topic coz they can actually hold together a conversation without decending into garbage replies or getting worked up. if someone makes a good point i'm willing to acknowledge it. none here so far 
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:08
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ok now youve tried to side track lets get back to the question...
| Quote: |
I didnt offer an option, he lied and Eve believe in im. God clearly told them not to eat that specific fruit tree. They sined, we all sined. Still dont understand?
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who gives 2 cents about an option... Eve was made perfect according to your last statements. If she was perfect then she would have no temptaion for the apple ( frankly the whole apple and dont eat bit sounds like a big lab experiment to me ) because god.. knowing that eating the apple was Bad Mkay would have designed her to NOT have a want to eat apples. Ergo your god made a flawed Eve, and if Eve was flawed then according to your logic....
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we where created in gods image and dont forget Adam and Eve had perfection
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then gods image is flawed ( man doesent this start sounding like hacked copies of Microsoft windows! )
So are you starting to see how logic can define your god as imperfect... its only your unwillingness to accept that you may believe in something that might be imperfect that allows you to go on oblivious to reason... and thats why its called a belief, belief is something that cannot be swayed by logic, which is why suicide bombers exsist... no logical person could believe something good could come of killing others and yourself at the same time.. only fanatical belief does that.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:09
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me, worked up. Im just bored. So far you only asked me really basic questions.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:11
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| IRA11Y wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:08 |
ok now youve tried to side track lets get back to the question...
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I didnt offer an option, he lied and Eve believe in im. God clearly told them not to eat that specific fruit tree. They sined, we all sined. Still dont understand?
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who gives 2 cents about an option... Eve was made perfect according to your last statements. If she was perfect then she would have no temptaion for the apple ( frankly the whole apple and dont eat bit sounds like a big lab experiment to me ) because god.. knowing that eating the apple was Bad Mkay would have designed her to NOT have a want to eat apples. Ergo your god made a flawed Eve, and if Eve was flawed then according to your logic....
| Quote: |
we where created in gods image and dont forget Adam and Eve had perfection
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then gods image is flawed ( man doesent this start sounding like hacked copies of Microsoft windows! )
So are you starting to see how logic can define your god as imperfect... its only your unwillingness to accept that you may believe in something that might be imperfect that allows you to go on oblivious to reason... and thats why its called a belief, belief is something that cannot be swayed by logic, which is why suicide bombers exsist... no logical person could believe something good could come of killing others and yourself at the same time.. only fanatical belief does that.
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You have no idea. read my other post after that.
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:12
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| Jesus said in Matthew 26:52 |
All who take the sword will die by the sword.
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| Jesus said in Matthew 10:34 |
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:13
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:07 |
if someone makes a good point i'm willing to acknowledge it. none here so far
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How can you acknowledge something if you refuse to understand
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:13
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| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:03 |
I just told you, there is no hell, heaven is only for 144,00 chosen people on earth.
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wait.. you're not part of that spaceship cult are you?
so you say you aren't a moron...
hmm... who are those crazy fuckers that buid your house and never let you leave?? (util they've raped your kids anyway) mayeb one of those
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:15
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| Quote: |
You have no idea. read my other post after that.
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lets see how i can use a written sentence to avoid a real discussion like you... oh wait.. ill just use a quote instead, just imagine this is a section of a religious text.. ill call it..
Michael 1.1.05
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you may believe in something that might be imperfect that allows you to go on oblivious to reason.
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and dont forget that other really important passage..
Michael 1.2.05
| Quote: |
belief is something that cannot be swayed by logic
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:18
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:13 |
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:03 |
I just told you, there is no hell, heaven is only for 144,00 chosen people on earth.
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wait.. you're not part of that spaceship cult are you?
so you say you aren't a moron...
hmm... who are those crazy fuckers that buid your house and never let you leave?? (util they've raped your kids anyway) mayeb one of those
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No im not
A limited number to be kings with Christ Re5:9,10 20:4
144,000 in special position no others have Re14:1,3;7:4,9
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:20
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| IRA11Y wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:15 |
| Quote: |
You have no idea. read my other post after that.
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lets see how i can use a written sentence to avoid a real discussion like you... oh wait.. ill just use a quote instead, just imagine this is a section of a religious text.. ill call it..
Michael 1.1.05
| Quote: |
you may believe in something that might be imperfect that allows you to go on oblivious to reason.
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and dont forget that other really important passage..
Michael 1.2.05
| Quote: |
belief is something that cannot be swayed by logic
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To understand a movie, you would have to seen the hole thing.
To understand a novel, you have to read the whole thing.
To understand a bible, you have to read the whole thing and understand it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:21
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Hi,
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:09 |
So far you only asked me really basic questions.
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Okay then, I got a few questions.
1) Do you beleive that Mary, the mother of Jesus was literally a virgin (ie in the true medical sense)?
2) Do you think that Jesus literally turned water into wine?
3) Do you beleive in Armaggedon as portrayed in the Bible?
4) Do you beleive that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute?
5) Do you beleive Mary Magdalene was the most beloved and greatest disciple of Jesus?
6) Do you think that Jesus literally fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread and a few fish?
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:25
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| God said in Exodus 20:13 |
thou shalt not kill
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| God said in Exodus 32:27 |
The Lord god commands to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends, and his neighbors.
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are actually going to explain anything i find in here or am i wasting my time.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:26
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| Quote: |
To understand a movie, you would have to seen the hole thing.
To understand a novel, you have to read the whole thing.
To understand a bible, you have to read the whole thing and understand it.
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and to have belief in something only needs you to be swayed in your mind so that whatever you read, partially or completely, will seem like a reality to your personal ideals. hypnotisim can do the same thing for you, so can affirmation as a sales tool ( been there too )
you still arent addressing the questions put to you in a logical way, and because you have belief beyond reason ( not necessarily a bad thing as long as you can admit it to yourself first ) you probhably never will.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:26
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wasting our time :\
I'm gonna go do something more productive (like masturbate)
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:29
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| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:20 |
To understand a bible, you have to read the whole thing and understand it.
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reminds me of a nerd programers joke in the computer labs at uni:
to define recursion, you must first define recursion
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:33
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Hi,
| draven wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:26 |
I'm gonna go do something more productive (like masturbate)
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I think that's frowned upon.... spilling your seed on barren ground, or something like that 
seeyuzz
river
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:35
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well, I'm actually reading the "great old songs" thread and busily downloading the few I don't have
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:40
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got any good sites? i'm sick of spyware crap with kazaa and all the torrent sites i can find make you download like 50 songs when theres only one you want
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:41
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kazaa resurrection
kazaa without the spyware crap.
I'd be careful tho - kazaa is being watched by authorities at the moment
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:41
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| river wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:21 |
Hi,
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:09 |
So far you only asked me really basic questions.
|
Okay then, I got a few questions.
1) Do you beleive that Mary, the mother of Jesus was literally a virgin (ie in the true medical sense)?
2) Do you think that Jesus literally turned water into wine?
3) Do you beleive in Armaggedon as portrayed in the Bible?
4) Do you beleive that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute?
5) Do you beleive Mary Magdalene was the most beloved and greatest disciple of Jesus?
6) Do you think that Jesus literally fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread and a few fish?
seeyuzz
river
1) No,
She married Joseph Mt1:19,20,24,25
Had other children besides Jesus Mt13:55,56 Lu8:19-21
2)Yes,
3)They way the book of revelation protraits the last days is symbolic, because they where dreams, but they have meaning.
Gods war to end wickedness:
Nations gathered to Armageddon Re16:14,16
God fights, using son(jesus) and angels 2th1:6-9 Re19:11-16
How we may survive Zep2:2,3 Re7:14
Wicked must go so righteous can prosper Pr21:18 Re11:18
4) and 5) God forgives anyone,if you regret your actions and never to it again.
God is love 1Jo4:8,16 Ex34:6 2Co13:11 Mic7:18
6)No
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:43
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what the fuck kind of answers were those to questions 4 and 5?
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:44
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well if theres parts in there which you dont believe, why do you refuse to consider this a flaw?
PS you STILL have not answered any of my questions
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:47
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| IRA11Y wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:26 |
| Quote: |
To understand a movie, you would have to seen the hole thing.
To understand a novel, you have to read the whole thing.
To understand a bible, you have to read the whole thing and understand it.
|
and to have belief in something only needs you to be swayed in your mind so that whatever you read, partially or completely, will seem like a reality to your personal ideals. hypnotisim can do the same thing for you, so can affirmation as a sales tool ( been there too )
you still arent addressing the questions put to you in a logical way, and because you have belief beyond reason ( not necessarily a bad thing as long as you can admit it to yourself first ) you probhably never will.
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So what are you saying, we appeared out of nowhere?
Satan has done a nice job
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:49
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:44 |
well if theres parts in there which you dont believe, why do you refuse to consider this a flaw?
PS you STILL have not answered any of my questions
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yes I have, look back. If you dont want to use that thick head of yours thats not my problem, i dont get anything out of this if you dont believe in it.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:51
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| draven wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:43 |
what the fuck kind of answers were those to questions 4 and 5?
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Just for you draven 4) yes 5)she was then loved by Jesus because she gave up on her old life of prostitution
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:55
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| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:51 |
| draven wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:43 |
what the fuck kind of answers were those to questions 4 and 5?
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Just for you draven 4) yes 5)she was then loved by Jesus because she gave up on her old life of prostitution
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only cos he was getting it for free 
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 12:57
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Hi,
Interesting answers. I assume by your answer to 4 that you beleive she was a prostitue that was forgiven by God 'cos she repented her sins?
You didn't really answer 5. It's quite a simple yes or no answer. So, I'll let you come back with a more definmitive answer on that one.
I am tired and want to go to bed and cuddle my wife. I will reply in the morning. I hope that despite the forum rules the mods keep this thread open since we are basically having a civilised discussion and no one is slagging severely into anyone.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 13:03
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Chris's tips to unbiased reasoning
1.When asking a question such as "why is the universe here?", also take time to contemplate the reciprocal question eg "what if there was no universe". This helps to stop the enormity of an important question from clouding your thoughts.
2.Acknowledge the fact that just because you may not know the answer to a question, doesnt mean that the answer doesnt exist. our knowledge as a race is far from complete.
3.Take things a step at a time. Big leaps in reasoning lead to confusion.
4.Use your own words. forming things into a sentence of your own requires much more thought, and can often lead to you finding flaws in your own arguments before saying something stupid.
5.NEVER say "You are wrong.". if this is what you believe, try saying "I think you are wrong, and here is why."
chris
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 13:07
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so baby jebus ran around telling everyone that he was the son of god.. but only managed to pick up a whore???
the boy needed some social skills
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 13:13
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Questions unanswered
-why should a christian rapist go to heaven and a buddhist charity worker go to hell? (you comletely ignored this one)
-why has god left satan in charge of crimnals? (this you attempted by posting numerous references which noone has time to look up. if you have an opinion as to why then say it.)
Flaws found and unanswered
-if there is only one god why does he keep refering to himself in plural form (this you accredited to the 'jargon' of the english language. yeah coz i had a hard time understanding plurals in primary school so how is god supposed to be able to do it?  )
-quotes from jesus contradicting himself about violence. (you havent said a thing on this)
-quotes from god contradicting himself about killing. (this either)
that said please explain how you can claim
| Quote: |
yes I have, look back. If you dont want to use that thick head of yours thats not my problem, i dont get anything out of this if you dont believe in it.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 13:20
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hey!! fix your quote. i didnt say that bubbles did
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 21:09
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 23:13 |
Questions unanswered
-why should a christian rapist go to heaven and a buddhist charity worker go to hell? (you comletely ignored this one)
-why has god left satan in charge of crimnals? (this you attempted by posting numerous references which noone has time to look up. if you have an opinion as to why then say it.)
Flaws found and unanswered
-if there is only one god why does he keep refering to himself in plural form (this you accredited to the 'jargon' of the english language. yeah coz i had a hard time understanding plurals in primary school so how is god supposed to be able to do it? )
-quotes from jesus contradicting himself about violence. (you havent said a thing on this)
-quotes from god contradicting himself about killing. (this either)
that said please explain how you can claim
| Quote: |
yes I have, look back. If you dont want to use that thick head of yours thats not my problem, i dont get anything out of this if you dont believe in it.
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For the third time, yes I have. I said that there is no hell, look back at the old posts
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 21:13
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 23:32 |
please explain
| Laws concerning sexual purity, Deuteronomy 22:20-21 |
if there is no proof that the girl was a virgin, then they are to take her out to the entrance of her fathers house where the men of the city are to stone her to death.
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sex before marriage was and still is a sin. I have to get back to you on the stone her to death bit,it happen, but i cant remember if it was the old testament or the new, because kiling is also a sin.
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 21:16
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 23:17 |
| mynameisrodney wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 23:13 |
i dont get anything out of this if you dont believe in it.
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whrrrt whrrrtt.. mormon alert..
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Im no mormon fool
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 21:41
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I have to prepare myself for exams again  . Ill get back to you in 3 months.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 22:56
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Biggest thread steal evah, hmmm really taken off over night. Toymods resident aethist sits and laughs.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Sun, 14 August 2005 22:57
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Hi,
| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 23:07 |
so baby jebus ran around telling everyone that he was the son of god.
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I think Jesus always referred to himself as the son of man. It was Pontious Pilot who said soemthing along the lines of "So you are the son of God?" to which Jesus replied "It is you who say I am".
Anyway... onto my reply for the answers to my questions. This maybe long winded, but hopefully you'll find it interesting and more of a history lesson as opposed to a religous tirade.
Whilst there is some merit in what Bubbles said that "to understand the Bible you have to read it", you must also take into consideration the socio-politcal times of the day when the various texts of the Bible were written.
Furthermore in 1947 the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. There are hundreds of scrolls, including those that are in the Bible and many more that were not included in the Bible. Many of these scrolls highlight festivals and rituals of the time, as well as narratives on Jesus (as per the Gospels). Much new information has been gleaned from reading these scrolls.
Although not considered to be history in the traditional sense, the Gospels relate the story of Jesus by way of continous narrative. Jesus often spoke in parables to simplify his message with allegorical discourse. The Gospels were constructed in a similar way, and it is important to recognise that many of the stories about Jesus are themselves parables for the benefit of "those with ears to hear". This often led to straightforward events being dubbed with supernatural overtones.
John 2:1-10 relates the story of Jesus substituting water for wine at the Cana wedding. This was the first of many presumptous actions by which Jesus made known his intention to circumvent tradition.
There was no such thing as Christianity in those days. The religion of Jesus was Judaism and the Jews all worshipped one God, but even they were split into various factions with different sets of community rules. It was generally perceived that Jehovah belonged to the Jews, but Jesus aspired to share Jehovah with the Gentiles in a way that did not require them to take on all the trappings of orthodox Judasim.
Jesus had little patience for the rigourous creeds of Jewish groups like the Pharisees and he realised that people would not be freed from oppression until they had forsaken their own uncompromising sectarianism.
Jesus was neither a King or a High Preist, however he paid little heed to such technicalities and processed to implement ritualistic changes regardless of his titular deficiency.
In John's Gospel, where the changing of water to wine is regarded as the first of Jesus' miracles, it is often misquoted that they "ran out of wine". The text actually says "and when they wanted wine the mother of Jesus said to Jesus 'they have no wine'". According to the ritual described in the Dead Sea scrolls, the relevance of this is plain. Only the fully initiated celibates were only allowed to partake in wine. All others present were regarded as unsanctified and were restricted to a purifying ritual with water - these included married men, novices, Gentiles and all lay Jews. Jesus merely substituted the water for wine.
The significence of Jesus' actions is he took it upon himself to break with tradition and allowed the 'unclean' guests to take the sacred wine. The ruler of the Feast of Cana 'knew not where it came from (but the servants which drew the water knew)'. He did not comment on any marvellous transformation, but simply remarked that he was surprised the good wine made its appearance at that stage.
Communion with consecrated bread and wine was an age old Essene tradition, not a product of later Christianity.In time the Christian Church appropriated the original custom as its own Eucharistic sacrament, symbolising the body and blood of Jesus in accordance with the Gospel references to its supposed institution at the Last Supper.
Judaic law was strict, but Jesus' new ministry was intended to the open hearted. Normally Gentiles were afforded access to Jewish ritual only if they were committed converts, who had undertaken to observe Jewsih customs. Jesus' thoughts were that Gentiles (non-Jews) should also have access to Jehovah.
The concept of a God shared by Jews and Gentiles alike became the very life force of Jesus' mission. It was an ideal that was more than revolutionary. To the die-hard orthodox Jews it was outrageous. Jesus was making Jehovah, the God of the Chosen People, available to all and sundry with few strings attached.
Gentiles wishing to be baptised into Judaism underwent a ritual where they as "fishes" were hauled into boats by "fishermen" to be blessed by the priestly "fishers". In similar imagery, the Levite officials of the Sanctuary were called "loaves". In the rite of ordination (the ceremony of admission to priestly ministery) the officiating Levite priests would serve seven loaves of bread and two fishes. Gentiels might receive baptism as "fishes" the law was very firm in that only Jews could become loaves.
Jesus again flouted law and tradition and allowed unclean Gentiles to partake what was normally reserved for Jews who were candidates for priesthood. Jesus made his concession to the representatives of the un-circumsised non-Jews of the Ham fraternity (know figuratively as the Five Thousand). Thus he granted their Multitude (governing body) symbolic access to the ministry by serving them five loaves and two fishes of the Jewish priestly candidates (Mark 6:34-44).
In the episode known as the Feeding of the Four Thousand, seven loaves of the senior priests were offered by Jesus to the uncircumsised Multitude of Shem (Mark 8:1-10).
At baptism ceremonies the "fishermen" who caught the Gentile "fishes" would first take their boats out some little distance from the shore. the baptismal postulents would then wade out into the water towards the boats. When everything was set the priestly "fishers" would leave the shore and make their own way to the moored boats along a jetty - thereby "walking on water" to the boats. Born into the tribe of Judah, not that of Levi, Jesus ahd no authority as a baptismal priest, but he nonetheless presumed to disregard the establishment and to usurp a priestly entitlement by walking on the sea to the disciples boats (Matthew 14:25-26). He even tempted Peter to arrogate himself the same right, but Peter was unable to comply for fear of legal reprisals (matthew 14:28-31).
I fear that I have become long winded, but I hope the above illustrates that some things mentioned in the Bible are not literal translations. There is no miraclous or divine changing of water into wine. Five thousand individuals were not fed by a few bits of food. Walking on water was an expression when one walked the jetty to the boats during the baptism ceremony.
The texts of the Bible refer to many rituals of the time that must be understood to gain a clearer defintion of what was written and said, as opposed to a pure literal translation.
I have not expounded upon Mary Magdalene or other things from my previous questions 'cos I have comsumed too much of your time already. Of course, if you'd like discourse on these subjects I will oblige, but there is the fear of the mods getting uppity on this topic and also the some people are not able to handle alternate translations of things they have wholly beleived in all their life.
seeyuzz
river
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 00:22
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Thanks for that read river. very good
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Kellyville, Sydney
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June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 00:23
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yeah good stuff. where you learn all that?
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Forster NSW
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 00:44
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| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:03 |
I just told you, there is no hell, heaven is only for 144,00 chosen people on earth.
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I love this guy... if you're not trolling I truly feel sorry for you.
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 01:04
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| Dale_ta22 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 10:44 |
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:03 |
I just told you, there is no hell, heaven is only for 144,00 chosen people on earth.
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I love this guy... if you're not trolling I truly feel sorry for you.
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well where the fuck do the rest of them go theres 6.5 billion ppl in the world and only 144000 places in heaven, sounds like a waiting list for a hospital.
So the rest of us just decmopose back to carbon and promote new life yay.
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Epping, Sydney
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April 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 01:25
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it;s funny how scared some people are of the whole ghosts/demons scene etc.
interesting... I guess we fear what they don't know, or have no control/power over???
Anyway, interesting notes on the Bible there River.
Whatever your interpretation, the Bible is always worth considering a read as it is the undisputedly most historically accuate book ever written with over 24,000 manscripts of the New Testament available for comparison with less than a 1% variance and none of these variances on any issue relating to sigificant teachings. The wight of evidence is incredible! Truth has it's own way of coming out no matter what it seems...
If we discount the Bible then we also have to discount Julius Ceasar, Homor's Iliad and many more.
In regards to the topic of this thread, I encourage you to seek, your own answers... As we can see there are a lot of ideas floating around here, and some good food for thought.
But don't be quick to discount anything till you have found out for yourself
[Updated on: Mon, 15 August 2005 01:41]
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 01:36
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Hi,
| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 10:23 |
yeah good stuff. where you learn all that?
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I read a lot. A lot of varied books and topics, and philosophical stuff, historical books, as well as some Biblical texts.
I am interested in not so much religion, but how it came to be, how it was changed over it's history to promote the desires and directions of various people and fraternities, the influences religion has on society.
The interpretation of many passages of old texts, particularly the Bible, are often interpreted literally as opposed to figuratively. For example, in law you have the "chair" (the solictor/lawyer) and the "bench" (the judge). Often you will read in court transcripts that the chair approached the bench to speak. This does not imply that an actual chair literally spoke to an actual bench. You need to understand the meanings of what a "chair" and a "bench" mean in the context of the transcript to understand what is what and who is who. And I like to know what is what and who is who and drill down a bit to get a gist of what happened, etc.
Anyway, I'm pleased you enjoyed the read. It wasn't meant to offend or preach. I'm just providing a historical view of the rituals and laws that were around at that time.
seeyuzz
river
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 01:46
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Hi,
The Iliad is a fantastic book. It was for thousands of years regarded as a mere story until (I forget the guys name) some explorer used the book to find the city of Troy - and found it!
These ancient books contain much fact and knowledge. It is often the interpretation of these texts that cause differences of opinion. That is why there are so many different Christian based religions. Despite the fact that all the Bibles are the same - each group has a different interpretation.
In the end, if the good book brings you contentment and peace, then so be it. I am not in the business of changing your beleifs, and I respect people for their beleifs.
seeyuzz
river
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:26
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 11:04 |
| Dale_ta22 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 10:44 |
| bubbles wrote on Sun, 14 August 2005 22:03 |
I just told you, there is no hell, heaven is only for 144,00 chosen people on earth.
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I love this guy... if you're not trolling I truly feel sorry for you.
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well where the fuck do the rest of them go theres 6.5 billion ppl in the world and only 144000 places in heaven, sounds like a waiting list for a hospital.
So the rest of us just decmopose back to carbon and promote new life yay.
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I already answered this questions, look back
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:40
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| river wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 11:46 |
Hi,
The Iliad is a fantastic book. It was for thousands of years regarded as a mere story until (I forget the guys name) some explorer used the book to find the city of Troy - and found it!
These ancient books contain much fact and knowledge. It is often the interpretation of these texts that cause differences of opinion. That is why there are so many different Christian based religions. Despite the fact that all the Bibles are the same - each group has a different interpretation.
In the end, if the good book brings you contentment and peace, then so be it. I am not in the business of changing your beleifs, and I respect people for their beleifs.
seeyuzz
river
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It's not that simple.
Two roads, only one leads to life Mt7:13,14 De30:19
Many gods but only one true God 1Co8:5,6 Ps82:1
Knowing true God essential for life Jon17:3 1Jo5:20
One hope, one faith, one baptism Eph4:5,13
Whole world deceived; must make mind over Re12:9 Ro12:2
Apparent "good in all religions" does not assure God's favor
God sets the standard for worship Jon4:23,24 Jas1:27
Not good if not as God wills Ro10:2,3
"good works" can be rejected Mt7:21-23
Recognized by fruitage Mt7:20
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Campbelltown
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:43
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Well i looked back and still couldn't find it, either that or you just didn't explain it well enough hmmm. Water in wine, add some fruit juice and yeast and voila wine ahahahahahaha science is there any thing it can't explain. Seriously I went to church up until the age of 7 then started playing cricket. Since saturday was taken up by cricket we couldn't be arsed going to church on sunday had to have some weekend to our selves.
I think i moved away from religion ever since starting high school / late primary school when science far more clearly explains everything.
There are too many holes in religion for me to believe in it. To me if you look at most religions they seem to be created in a attempt to instill law and order ie develop moral and ethical values etc whether they be right or wrong i won't comment. The concept of heaven and hell for christianity is kinda more of a fear instilled into ppl to make them behave in life. Much like a parents threat to a child that if they aren't good Santa Claus won't come.
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Banned user
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Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:48
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 12:43 |
Well i looked back and still couldn't find it, either that or you just didn't explain it well enough hmmm. Water in wine, add some fruit juice and yeast and voila wine ahahahahahaha science is there any thing it can't explain. Seriously I went to church up until the age of 7 then started playing cricket. Since saturday was taken up by cricket we couldn't be arsed going to church on sunday had to have some weekend to our selves.
I think i moved away from religion ever since starting high school / late primary school when science far more clearly explains everything.
There are too many holes in religion for me to believe in it. To me if you look at most religions they seem to be created in a attempt to instill law and order ie develop moral and ethical values etc whether they be right or wrong i won't comment. The concept of heaven and hell for christianity is kinda more of a fear instilled into ppl to make them behave in life. Much like a parents threat to a child that if they aren't good Santa Claus won't come.
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A limited number; to be kings with Christ(in heaven) Re5:9,10 20:4
144,000 in special position no others have Re14:1,3 7:4,9
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Campbelltown
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November 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:53
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that still doesn't answer the question they have no special postion so what, they just hang round the earth as ghosts trying to bring it back on topic here . Considering how many have died in the last 2000 years i'd be well and truly certain that those 144000 supposed places have already been filled in which case if your right we are all fucked.
Have a nice day. Meh
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Kellyville, Sydney
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June 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 02:58
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i'll conceed that you have answered the questions regarding heaven and hell, but only so we can move on.
your original challenge was for me to find flaws in the bible and i found some.
i win
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
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March 2004
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 03:00
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If you read those scriptures carefully you would understand that no one goes to heaven, only those that god choses to rule with Jesus after armaggeddom.
I wosto be a cathlic and nothing made sense, good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell.
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Location:
Campbelltown
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November 2003
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 03:00
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if we all came from adam and eve how come we aren't all fucked up inbred hicks 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: ghost (not this s*%t again)
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Mon, 15 August 2005 03:02
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fark bubbles. spewing forth gazillions of bible quotes does not make a convincing argument. argue the merit of what the quotes are saying.
Quotes should be used to *support* an argument you're making, not be the argument in themselves.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
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April 2003
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