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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
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 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Thu, 19 December 2002 07:15
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IM wanting to build a new motor, but am unsure of what motor to build.
I have a spare 2TG head which i can put on a 3TGTE bottomend(which i will have to buy)+ i also have a 4AGE head that i can put on a 4AGZE bottomend(Which i will also have to buy)
I want opinions on what will be cheaper to do and what people think is better?and why? I work in a sheetmetal workshop so the fabrication side of things is not a problem eg, manifolds etc.
I will be putting this in my TA22 which already has a 2TGEU init.
I also have a microtech MT8+ a DIGI1 pro computer so the managment side of things is not a problem for either motor, I have a t50 gearbox spare in the shed to suit a 4A aswell (from an AE71 which i striped for parts)
any help would be great 
P.S. If anyone has a bottomend for either the 4AGZE or 3TGTE let me know as im intrested in buying one
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Thu, 19 December 2002 11:09
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You're just asking for a shit fight by asking a question like that!
I'll throw everyone right now & say a 2/3T hybrid has some big advantages over a 4A in terms of cost:
1. supra 5 speeds can be attached very easily
2. you can get a standard turbo manifold for it
3. capacity increases are much more viable
Despite this there are a few of us these days planning or actually building 4A-GTEs, and there are some very nice examples running around.
Advantages of the 4A (that I can think of):
1. motors & parts are in generally better condition, as they are newer, plus there's prolly a few more around, & easier to find
2. standard internals may be stronger? (I havn't seen or heard of many internally standard T series motors making big power)
3. it's not an old dinosaur engine! 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Thu, 19 December 2002 14:29
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4. Knowledge. with more and more of us performing turbo conversions on these motors more info and help is available
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Thu, 19 December 2002 22:02
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Bigworms right...youve opened up the start of a fiery debate (once more ) with this question...to be honest im amazed Rod hasnt got in here first!
PERSONALLY!!! I think the 4A is a better engine to start as a base for a turbo application, the main reasoning behind this is that not many T series came with ceramic top forged pistons and a forged crank from the factory  so for starters youll save a lot of money there. adapting the 4A to turbo is not too hard especially seeing as you have an aftermarket computer allready. It can be as simple as a J pipe or as complex as full custom fabrication at great expense.
having said all that!!! there are some huge T series engines being built at present which should be pulling some very big ponies!!! but I think you will find that a lot of money has gone into making these engines, not the least of the expenses will be the forged pistons you will need to buy first of all.
Something to look at would be the dyno day graphs of some of the cars over the last few years...they will give you some indication as to what can be achieved. get in touch with people like Yogi and Rod who have some good knowledge of each of these engines in turbo applications.
my 5c...roll on the war Rod 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Fri, 20 December 2002 08:45
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ok, i'm a 4AGTE convert, having just finished my conversion from a 3TGTE.
The 4AG is far smoother
Far lighter
Much stronger
About 1/3 smaller physically
Revs harder
Parts are readily available and CHEAP!
The 3TGTE/3TG-2TG hybrid is an old, outdated design. 
BUT: you can easily fit a strong supra box & large clutch to a 'T' series, whereas there's nothing from toyota that will bolt up to a 4AG other than a T50. You need to pay $$$ for a custom bellhousing, and then are still limited (in most situations) to a 8 1/2" clutch or smaller.
Cheers
Phil
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Sat, 21 December 2002 07:39
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how about using a 3tgte exhause and intake manifolds - bolting them to your existing 2tgeu , stroking it out with 3t pistons and crank - and building a 2tgteu hybrid
If you have the 2tgeu in it - thats the easiest and cheapest way ( bolt on inlet oultet manifolds etc ..
nods to 4ag turbos - they might be more " refined " but no chance of " boltng up " a w series ..
Dellows (?) make an adaptor for a w55 to a 2t/3t block i believe ..
then you just need to get the crossmember setup for the gearbox - and WHEE - bosstorama ( in a nutshell )
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Sat, 21 December 2002 07:39
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Where the hell is Rod?!?!?
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Sun, 22 December 2002 12:27
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| Nark wrote on Sat, 21 December 2002 18:09 |
Where the hell is Rod?!?!?
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HAHA, he'll even the debate!
If its going in a TA22 then won't it be easier to go for the 3TGTE/2TG option? why make it hard for yourself building a custom engine that wasn't even made for turbs? There are also so many people that have gone down the 3TGTE path that parts and info for these are quite plentiful, and engineers have probably already seen plenty of 3TGTE in TA22 conversions.
BTW I know a bloke here in SA selling his 2L fully reconditioned 3TGTE block for around $600 with 7.1:1 hepatite gemini pistons. just another option for you. can you bore a 4AGZE to 2L??
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Sun, 22 December 2002 12:53
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| Quote: |
can you bore a 4AGZE to 2L??
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Do you need to??
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Sun, 22 December 2002 20:11
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horses for courses. the 2TG/3TG is a little old now, the 4AG is newer.
specifically whats the difference? the 4AG is the big brother to the 2TG - the 4AG's got their design from the T series motor.
ok, so we have two engines, 1.6 in capacity. sure, you want more capacity, use a 3T bottom end of 7A bottom end and you get 1.8 litres in capacity (NB: less bolts on 7A crank to hold flywheel on apparently AND not as revvy as the 4A - can't comment about the 3TG combo (Rod?).
the 2T uses chain driven cam gears, the 4A uses a belt.
the 4A doesn't have the dummy cam to drive the oil pump and the dizzy - dizzy is driven off the exhaust cam and the oil pump well thats drive off the front of the crank...
i think if you're going to sink money into an engine - you'll get good rewards from both platforms - its what YOU want. sure if you're going to put one in a celica, the 2T/3T will bolt straight in - how easy is that - the 4A will require new engine mounts - no big deal.
if you are a restorer and want some sort of authenticity - stick with a 2T (i'm talking celica's here) - if you don't care - throw in a 4AG)
just my thoughts.....am sure there are much more qualified people to talk about both engines in far more details, but, at the end of the day its what YOU want in your engine bay!
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Mon, 23 December 2002 00:59
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| Quote: |
nods to 4ag turbos - they might be more " refined " but no chance of " boltng up " a w series ..
Dellows (?) make an adaptor for a w55 to a 2t/3t block i believe ..
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There's every chance of bolting up a W55 to a 4A, if you have the cash (quite a few of us have done it now, I did it only a few months back). Dellow make the bellhousing for this, & T series don't need the expensive bellhousing, The 3T-GTE came with a W55 standard.
So it's just cheaper & easier than bolting one up to a 4A.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Mon, 23 December 2002 13:41
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Where is YOGI and ROD??????? i was hopeing that they would both respond to this post.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Mon, 23 December 2002 13:44
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inferno: i sent you a PM about the 3TGTE bottomend
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Mon, 23 December 2002 19:32
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um, FLYPSI they probably can't be bothered most of this has been discussed before anyways...
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Tue, 24 December 2002 13:24
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| thetoyman75 wrote on Tue, 24 December 2002 19:35 |
Most people will say one of the engines sucks because they had one or know of one that was not built, tuned or maintained correctly and so didn't perform to their expectations ! And thats really the biggest part of this arguement. The many will critise an engine because of their own inefficiencies to use it to its fullest potential while the rest of us who take the time to truely evaluate the potential of an engine and its requirements will build something that perfoms well and is suited to our own driving style regardless of weather it be a T series or A series engine.
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Take note people this applies to many a situation. Top work Rod, Ive never heard it put so well.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Tue, 24 December 2002 14:04
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I think Rod forgot his medication... 
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Tue, 24 December 2002 15:26
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Oh and Micheal the 4AGZE pistons are Ceramic coated but NOT forged ! NO production A series or T series got Forged pistons from the Factory. 
And Classique71 the W55, W57 and W58 will mount to the TA22 Auto xmember using the W50 RA23 mount (you can use the factory W55 etc mount but ti has a locating plate on the bottom of it that either needs to be cut off or preferably cut a hole for it in the Auto xmember) Attaching the Xmember to the chassis may be an issue some say it bolts straight up others say it sits a tad to far back !
FLYPSI,
If you do decide to go go the 4A series I have a engine Xmember already modded to take a 4A for the TA22. You will need to use a custom tailshaft tho.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Tue, 24 December 2002 15:55
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no they were also forged
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Tue, 24 December 2002 22:26
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Rod Said......
Ceramic Coating is weaker than a forged piston. Why would anyone cermic coat a forged piston?
Give Toyota a buzz, but I am pretty sure they are not forged. Only the crank is (just like the 3TGTE).
Merry Chrissy
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 05:03
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| Teenz wrote on Wed, 25 December 2002 09:26 |
Rod Said......
Ceramic Coating is weaker than a forged piston. Why would anyone cermic coat a forged piston?
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The later 4AGZE pistons are forged and ceramic coated from the factory. The ceramic coating is to improve heat rejection, and has nothing to do with the piston construction.
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 05:51
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OK, that's 3 against 1 (although that 1 is backed up by teenz ).
This would be a good topic to get to the bottom of, what does everyone have to back up their claims?
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 08:43
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Rod: I sent you a PM about the crossmember!
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 08:58
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classique71......you CANT fit 3tgte efi to a 2tg head, different bolt pattern, but you can use the 2tg efi
im using 22re efi on a custom manifold as it flows more air and i had a spare one
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 09:11
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Well heres my bit on it:
I've got a 4AG turbo, and generally I'm quite happy with it. As far as fitting stuff etc. goes, I've found its alright. Strength? Well I broke one engine, as a result of no rev limiter and a stuck throttle... So thing to remember with 4A engines is that a set of decent rod bolts wouldn't hurt!
3T engines - I've seen a few, and got one in the garage (its not mine). Set up properly they seem to go alright and are plenty smooth, but seem a bit more like a bigger, slower revving engine. They are a bit better at spooling up a turbo than the 4a though, which is quite gutless without any boost. Still I don't think they are as strong.
My pick would be the 3sgte, and I might end up sticking one into my car yet, see how I go. Especially the later ones, for strength they can't be beaten.
However, if you already have a heap of T engine parts, then no harm giving it a go - don't do what everyone else does! Since I did my car it seems every man and his shoelace have turbo'd a 4ag (OK, not quite!), and I need to change to something else just because I can
Let your imagination decide, and your wallet dictate!
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Wed, 25 December 2002 15:56
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Nah, they're all far too wussy.
Go for a 2.8 litre 3RZ-FE, with a turbo on it. Four cylinder engine, all alloy, a really nice head, and the nearly same capacity of a 7MGTE but you can nearly pick the engine up. 
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGTE vs 2TG/3TGTE hybrid
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Thu, 26 December 2002 01:50
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Hey Rod
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The T series heads are Shim under Bucket Factory as opposed to the 4A shim under which limits the amount of lift you can run on the factory valve train.
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do you mean the T is shim under and the A is shim over?
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No 4A Turbo engine has been Raced by a Toyota Factory team to my Knowlege.
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not by toyota but by plenty of others, and quite successfully especially on the drag strip just ask Yogi
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There is no 4A turbo manifold factory or Factory bellhousing to fit a Strong RWD gearbox.
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not from factory but there are lots of aftermarket kits available like the HKS turbo kit and the Dellows bell housing to suit the W series g/boxes
Youre right this is totally a personal choice, weve argued this many times before both on the forums and personally. I love a well set up N/A T series as you know but bang for buck I cant see how anyone could go past an A for turbo when you get the nice strong bottom end from factory. To be honest I wouldnt even bother turboing and A series myself....I think theres more advantage in going the 3SGTE route these days
oh and as Bill said there were forged pistons in the later series GZE's
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