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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 05:43
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A nice comparison of 3SGTE 4wd and 3SGTE 2wd.
http://media.putfile.com/PatVsMR2
The MR2 in the vid has since gone 9.83 at 130 odd MPH.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 06:43
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it would have been nicer if they were both standard, more of a comparison
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 10:50
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There's no comparison when standard. The MR2 is heaps quicker than the GT4. The GT4 is too heavy too highly geared and can't get any wheel spin off the line to get the engine into the power band. OK If it is a Group A then the gearing is OK but the other problems are still there.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 12:40
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very nice.
now how about a video clip with some corners 
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 13:06
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That GT4 is meant to be putting out about 650HP.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 13:35
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| BlackGT4 wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 22:40 |
very nice.
now how about a video clip with some corners
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Brings me to an interesting point. Although I fear that I'm inciting a flame war...
What would be faster? ST205 or SW21?
I've driven both ST185 and SW20, and I know the ST185 wouldn't have a hope in hell once a corner arrived. But apparently the ST205s actually handle pretty well.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Thu, 18 August 2005 14:21
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| BlackGT4 wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 22:40 |
very nice.
now how about a video clip with some corners
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well i know I am inciting a flaming here
dude its an mr2... mr2s are kings of the corners, they would kill the gt4, unless its a dirt or gravel corner, then the gt4 would easily take it 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 01:59
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sorry never knew mr2s were king of corners.
i always thought awd are superior for that.
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Location:
Parramatta
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 02:32
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depending on the AWD some of them have too much understeer IE my99, st185 and more to be listed but this problem can be overcome by suspesion mods. This would be a good test i think awd vs the MR2, because i know mr2 well the sw20 have understeer issues also.
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Location:
Inside a giant turbo (syd...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 02:33
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it comes down to wieght. Chode gt4 vs lighter mr2.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 04:48
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4WDs without electronically controlled centre diffs & rear bias suck in terms of handling.
They're heavier, waste more power, and have huge power-on understeer problems.
The only way to kinda bodgey it is to tune a lot of oversteer into the suspension. This makes it quite hard to drive though.
Believe me, I know, the Liberty is tuned like that.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 07:46
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The MR2 is a lot faster around any track that is not a low traction surface i.e dirt skid pan etc.
At the big MR2 convention in the states that was also open to Lotus Elises and GT4's/alltracs the best GT4 time was 10 seconds slower than the best 3SGTE powered MR2's time in a 50-60 second autocross. Admittedly the MR2 was a SW11 so it weighed a good 300+Kg less than the GT4s, but it also only had about 270whp.
The GT4 is a nice car. It's comfortable and fairly nice to drive below the limit but it is in no way competetive with a MR2 in any situation that has reasonable traction. I'll admit a 600hp GT4 is going to be a hell of a lot easier to drive and over a period of laps will be a lot quicker than a MR2 with the same power but in terms of best lap time the MR2 will be in a completely different class.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 09:17
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Most new shopping trolleys handle better than ST185s man. Get with with the times.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 09:31
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Im not even gonna begin outlining how ridiculous that statement is, man.
And im not about to continue an argument that could not be based more on opinion and less on fact.
Even though you would portray me as the person blindly waving the 185 flag I will say here and now that an SW20 is a blinder of a car, its quick of the line and nimble (more power efficient driveline and 200 odd kilos less weight helps in that area)
The fact that I was trying to point out is that I own a 185 in quite respectable condition, I have looked after it well and despite driving many varieties of cars RWD, FWD, AWD, MR etc I have never felt safer pushing my car around bends and in straight lines than in the 185.
So I would suggest that you spend less time trying to 'own' someone on these forums and actually read what they are trying to say.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 10:08
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| Cool1 wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 19:50 |
I read an took note of what you said, but you cant expect anyone to take your seriously as you are obviously biased toward the 185 cause you own one.
Everyone likes to think the type of car they own is better than any other, but this cant always be the case.
But anyway, I have driven 165's, 185's and 205's and I reckon the 165 handles the best. It doesnt have the power in standard form, but with suspension that is in good nick they handle great.
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That is your opinion and I can respect that. Its a given that everyone has different experiences in different cars cause we all have a different driving style, and we buy our car based on those experiences, so logically you buy a car which you think is the best.
Taking the analogy a step further, after buying a car that suits your driving style should, in theory, allow you to get the best from that type of car. i.e. being able to push the car to the limits of your abilities.
I can take things right to the edge in my 185 which is something i didnt feel comfortable doing in an MR2, maybe because i like to power out of corners more than a RWD car would allow, i like a car that is point and shoot, and thats the 185 through and through.
I can only assume that people who have experienced understeer in a 185 have entered a corner too quickly, overpowering the driven front wheels ability to turn the car, but the tried and true method of cornering an AWD vehicle is slow in-hard out, as opposed to a RWD car, fast in-easy out.
As my type of driving style favours the former I find the 185 a joy to drive and cant accomodate people who will blindly say its shit.
There are too many variables to make an accurate conclusion as to which is better. one is FR AWD, the other is MR RWD, there are differences in weight distribution, gear ratios, wheelbase, suspension setup, infact the only real similarities are the badge and the engine.
All im saying is take care not to blindly dismiss something that someone else feels is worthy just because its not your preference, my original msg was pointing out the racing heritage, years of engineering and final conclusion that the 185 was arguably the most dominating rally car of its time.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 10:16
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SilverGhost you're reinforcing what I said. The GT4 will be easier to drive quickly but it is nowhere near as quick. If you have two highly skilled drivers the MR2 will completely demoralise the GT4 on tarmac. If you have two bad drivers the GT4 will win because it is easier to drive and the handling bias is more user friendly.
If the GT4 driveline was so good for handling TTR wouldn't have to petition to have a complete new centre diff setup allowed so thatt hey can be competetive with the WRX and Evo.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 10:35
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| SilverGhost wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 20:08 |
Taking the analogy a step further, after buying a car that suits your driving style should, in theory, allow you to get the best from that type of car. i.e. being able to push the car to the limits of your abilities.
I can take things right to the edge in my 185 which is something i didnt feel comfortable doing in an MR2, maybe because i like to power out of corners more than a RWD car would allow, i like a car that is point and shoot, and thats the 185 through and through.
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I must say driving an mr2 is something that takes alot longer to be able to push it to the limits than it would in a gt4, they are very differant cars, but yes as josh said once you get experienced in an MR2, it will walk over most other cars in the corners, not just GT4s, so don't feel bad 
In that last comment
| SilverGhost wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 20:08 |
I can only assume that people who have experienced understeer in a 185 have entered a corner too quickly, overpowering the driven front wheels ability to turn the car, but the tried and true method of cornering an AWD vehicle is slow in-hard out, as opposed to a RWD car, fast in-easy out.
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awd slow in hard out, yes, normal rwd fast in easy out, yes, an mr2 is not your normal rwd, they can go fast in, fast out, because of their unique nature of all the weight infront of the rear wheels, physics say when you accelerate weight tranfers to the rear of the car, in the mr2 this puts alot more weight on the rear wheels than other cars, which in turn increases traction, and because it is rwd, it has the tendancy to get oversteer, this all adds to it shuffling around the corner very quickly, and you can keep power on all the way through.
That said, I have never been beaten in a corner by a 4wd even when trying, GT4, WRX, never raced an evo, but I hope they would be a bit more of a challenge. although it is a bit differant to an sw20, the AW11 is not as commonly set up to understeer like the sw20 is, it is more neutral and even lighter still.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 14:01
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| Cool1 wrote on Fri, 19 August 2005 19:17 |
Most new shopping trolleys handle better than ST185s man. Get with with the times.
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comment of the year mate..
*gives cool1 a pat on the back*
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 15:25
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But anyway, I have driven 165's, 185's and 205's and I reckon the 165 handles the best. It doesnt have the power in standard form, but with suspension that is in good nick they handle great.
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Cool1, i love you!
Silverghost, as much as i worship at the idol of GT4, everything that people have said in this thread is true. Particularly the thing about Bate's new active centre - the GT4 system is nearly twenty years old and it was in use even before Toyota began campaigning it. Twas arguably the best in its time but we live in the age of drive by wire and active torque distribution.
You have to drive an MR2 to appreciate just how well balanced they are. And if you haven't experienced high speed entry understeer then buddy, you aint driving as fast as you think you are.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Fri, 19 August 2005 21:32
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| KYOTO wrote on Sat, 20 August 2005 01:25 |
Cool1, i love you!
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I'll show you some lovin baby 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sat, 20 August 2005 03:15
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"If the GT4 driveline was so good for handling TTR wouldn't have to petition to have a complete new centre diff setup allowed so thatt hey can be competetive with the WRX and Evo."
Gotta remember josh , neal uses the basis of st205 drivetrain - its at least 6 years older than any of the current stuff on the market - of course he'd have to ask to have it upgraded to be compeditive
Comparing todays evo or STi to a gt4 is a bit like chalk and cheese - were playing with 10-15 year old technology ( edit: at its most updated specifications ), 100% mechanical , no bells and whistles - as you said , for the time , was the best that could be run .. the later AWD heros have alot of electronics backing up their power distribution.
One forte of the gt4 though ,its built like a brick shithouse to deal with rallying, hence the added weight disadvantages - though todays evo ir WRX are no lighter than a St205
to make a gt4 even able to keep up to a modern day EVO , or wrx takes a shiteload of money and work , but its not impossible - though as the end of the day - a Gt4 is only going to raise to a near stock EVO or a WRX Sti standard - whereas those guys who own those cars can build further apon what they have. technology favours them as well as development in chassis , brakes and drivetrain of nearly 10 years
As for the mr2 - its lighter , has less diffs to transfer power thru - is more designed as an all out track blaster - of course it will win
Gt4's were built for dirt , and gravel first and foremost. Id be surpsided if a mr2 could handle the stresses put on it if it was taken off road , but as they say horses for courses
[Updated on: Sat, 20 August 2005 03:18]
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sat, 20 August 2005 16:07
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| Classique71 wrote on Sat, 20 August 2005 13:15 |
Gt4's were built for dirt , and gravel first and foremost. Id be surpsided if a mr2 could handle the stresses put on it if it was taken off road , but as they say horses for courses
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bingo, its really interesting taking a mr2 onto a dirt surface.
My old one was sold to a guy who is gonna build it up for off road rallies, he liked the potential of it, he reckons they pull out of corners like 4wds do, but they are extermely tempremantal, if you give them a little much they want to swap ends. funny enough they still handle better on dirt than most normal cars, FR, FF, but you have to always be on guard
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 02:38
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I agree that the ST185 handles like shit in stock form... especially with the stock (15 year old) suspension, however, with decent suspension and a decent wheel alignment (read: not jax, bob jane, etc.) you can rid yourself of the understeer problems.
That said an MR2 with similar mods would still kill the GT4 in most situations so long as there aren't any traction issues.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 03:06
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Different cars, for different purposes. Stop comparing 
MR2's are awesome machines, as are GT4s. At least neither of them are FWD
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 12:05
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The MR2 is FWD... just comes with 5 reverse gears and a backwards seating position 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 12:10
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| Toobs wrote on Sun, 21 August 2005 22:05 |
The MR2 is FWD... just comes with 5 reverse gears and a backwards seating position
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i own one and that is true 
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 22:20
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i dunno too much about 165's or 185's.
but my old man drives a 205 and its pretty impressive, its faster in a straight line than my JZA80, altho it is auto. and both cars are stock standard.
the celica really is a great car to drive and would tear a hole in the new evo. threw the twisty bits it really pushes hard and you have to be right on the limit get it to understeer.
i rate it, and probably would consider buying one if they werent so rare these days.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Sun, 21 August 2005 23:51
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| alwaysRA23 wrote on Mon, 22 August 2005 08:20 |
i
the celica really is a great car to drive and would tear a hole in the new evo.
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i'm sorry but i very much doubt that, the evo has an amazing array of electronics and my money would be on the evo.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 01:34
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yeah thas cool dude, i understand what ur saying. but ive raced an evo 8 in my supra, sure i lost but not by much. and after driving the gt4, and knowing how much harder it pulls on my car. i reckon it would be over.
maybe dads car is just one of those freaks that over performs?
hes got a dyno slip from like 3 years ago that says 150 kw atw's but that was before he owned it.
the only mods done are hks bov and a shitfull pod filter that brings in more heatsoaked air from behind the battery.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 03:53
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This thread seems as pointless as turbos v's SC
Having driven a variety of both the 185 and the SW20 (turbo and non turbo) on the race track i can say there's not that much in it depending on the mods. For similar mods the MR2 was always a shade quicker but it was easy to feel that once a hp point had been reached the GT4 was going to be much easier to drive as the tail happy nature of the MR2 would be very trickey. I have yet to drive a big hp MR2 but when Neil Bates has and says it was the scariest thing he's ever driven it confirms for me what i was feeling. As most of us aren't professional race car drivers, what the car can do is of little relevance if we can't
For what it's worth they are both outstanding cars in terms of looks and go potential. As for what is faster, simply comes down to the individual cars and driver on the day....wanking on that one model is better than the other smacks of small penis syndrome to me
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Location:
Inside a giant turbo (syd...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 04:25
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nah is all about the mr2 brother! It pulls the chicks.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 04:43
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| alwaysRA23 wrote on Mon, 22 August 2005 11:34 |
yeah thas cool dude, i understand what ur saying. but ive raced an evo 8 in my supra, sure i lost but not by much. and after driving the gt4, and knowing how much harder it pulls on my car. i reckon it would be over.
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erm.. dude the evo8 base model does a standing quarter in 13 flat. I have no idea what the gt4 does, but I'm betting it's not lower than that
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 05:04
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That sounds very much how Corona RT142 would lead into a post. Please don't do it again
If either model of car was good they would be popular in drifting, like Sprinters
To settle this...........the MR2 and the GT4 are both ghey......nuff said
SPS
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Location:
Vic
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 09:14
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nice find, it close there. didnt know who to back but glqad the mr2 got up
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: 3SGTE Battle
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Mon, 22 August 2005 11:30
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i most likely gunna get totaled here for saying this but what comparsion would a nicely Tuned GT2 pull against them as ive heard that the GT2's gettin around do alright on the straight and such being a lighter FWD basis, i cant say anything myself as yet still pending the conversion but with the 3s-fe in there i still get around with minimal understeer at times
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