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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 01:41
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OK, this is a weird one. A bit of background: I'm helping a guy get his GA70 Supra running with an Aristo 2JZ-GTE engine + auto. The mechanical work was done by a Dodgy Bros workshop who charged him twice the original quote but basically gave up when they got to the wiring, and tried to charge him another few grand for a Microtech install (keeping in mind the engine is 100% stock). So I offer to wire it up using the original ECU etc, and after a bit of screwing around it starts and runs.
So, the first time it fires I notice there is a god-awful noise coming out of the inlet even at idle. I conclude broken turbos, and tell the owner to pull the off for a visual inspection. He gets half way through pulling the crap off to get at the turbos (anyone who's seen a 2JZ will know what a nightmare this is) and finds a pair of socks jammed against the compressor wheels. No I'm not kidding. Turbos appear to be fine so he puts it back together.
Last weekend I went over for the maiden voyage. The engine starts, bad noises are gone, but at any engine speed above idle there's turbo spooling noises and mega whooshing through the pod filter, followed by fulli-sik compressor surge noises when the throttle shuts. I thought that was stange so I hooked up a boost gauge directly to the plenum. Holding the throttle open at approx 3k rpm, there is 0.5 bar in the plenum! WTF?! How can there be any boost when the engine is free-revving at a constant speed?
Anyway, we decide to go for a drive around the block to see what happens. The engine runs smoothly, nothing weird happens - but when you floor it there's lots of whooshing but not much acceleration. It feels positively slow when it should be fairly quick. I didn't have the boost gauge hooked up at this point though so I don't know if there was any boost under load.
So, how on earth can this happen? After much thought I've concluded it must be (a) mega blockage in the exhaust (more socks?) or (b) seriously munted cam timing, most likely caused when the Dodgy Bros changed the timing belt. But if anyone has more suggestions I'm all ears. What's happening right now isn't possible as far as I'm aware, and yet it is happening! 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 01:50
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2JZ runs a single wastegate actuator right?
maybe its really badly forked...
either that or the timing could be way way waaaaay retarded and its decided to start running antilag, without the extra fuel required, so on idle and not under load its making boost but when it tries to do it underload it is leaning out something fierce...
check the cam timing
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:20
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Yeah this could happen if the ignition timing is very retarded aswell.
So I suppose if the cam is out then the CAMAS will be giving signal to the CRANKAS at the wrong time and everything would be foobar.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:26
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mayb they put a cam in upside down?
dont laugh
ive seen it done...
doesnt run overly well either 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:27
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If its anything like the 1UZ, the CEL will be on if the cam gears are out one tooth.
But I have separate sensors on each gear, so that probably aids in its detection.
Does the 2JZ have a actual crank angle sensor? or just a sensor in the old dizzy spot?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:28
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| MR 1JZ wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 10:26 |
mayb they put a cam in upside down?
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That would be like playing basketball with the ball upsidedown.
I think you mean back to front?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:29
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 11:58 |
| MR 1JZ wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 10:26 |
mayb they put a cam in upside down?
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That would be like playing basketball with the ball upsidedown.
I think you mean back to front?
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errr
yeah
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:36
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 12:27 |
Does the 2JZ have a actual crank angle sensor? or just a sensor in the old dizzy spot?
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No dizzy on the GTE engine. It has a crank angle sensor just behind the harmonic balancer, and a pair of cam angle sensors on one of the cams (inlet I think).
I fail to see how the ignition timing could be out since there's no way to adjust it, unless of course the cam timing is out in which case everything will be forked.
I'll check for error codes next time I'm over there.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:57
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If it's making boost under no load like that, are you sure there aren't more sockages, I mean blockages, in the intake, like maybe in the manifold? I'm sure it'd run top with a sock in each inlet runner! (Maybe Stevros pulled the top off the manifold when putting the engine in??)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 02:58
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that might be an idea - I remember I almost left a rag in my inlet manifold when hooking up my ic piping
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 03:29
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Yeah that was another idea I had, but I'm hoping it's not that because removing the plenum is a PITA. 
The fact that the engine was running so smoothly makes it seem unlikely, unless of course there's an equal blockage in all the runners.
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 04:16
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 11:58 |
| MR 1JZ wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 10:26 |
mayb they put a cam in upside down?
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That would be like playing basketball with the ball upsidedown.
I think you mean back to front?
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As in putting the exhaust camshaft on the intake side and vice versa? Its not possible to put one in backwards. I'm guessing the timing is retarded.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 04:52
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I assume the CAS and cam-sensors were wired into the stock loom, and no extra wiring was required?
my 1jz ran much like you're describing (without the boost at idle) when the cam sensor was wired up incorrectly.
nb: I'm throwing any idea I can think of at you, 'cause that's an awesomely weird problem 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 04:58
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| Norbie wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 11:41 |
and finds a pair of socks jammed against the compressor wheels. No
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I could have been worse...they could have been sock puppets.....
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 05:11
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You are a strange and disturbing man GT.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 05:27
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OK, seriously, I'd be looking for more socks or rags (plenum side). Cam timing is easy to check - whip off the timing cover and take a look once the crank pulley is at TDC.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 05:46
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i'd say GT is more like strange and amusing.
Teh Witzl's check list
# socks in ALL PLACES. Perhaps some nong even has them in the exhaust??
# cam timing and timing belt tesnioner. If the tensioner is loose its like having VVT-r (variable valve timing - retarded)
# munted wastegate actuator
# wanged ECU retarding ignition timing (the AE71 was VERY slow when igntion timing got retarded!!)
# It has been touched by His noodly appendage.
I told you i should have stayed up there for this one Norbie 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 05:50
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| THE WITZL wrote on Tue, 30 August 2005 15:46 |
I told you i should have stayed up there for this one Norbie
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You can come up and take this one over if you like!
Question: how would one check the ignition timing on an engine with no distributor or plug leads?
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Location:
tas
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 06:02
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THATS A GOOD QUESTION!!
how do you check the timing on an engine with coil on each spark plug no dizzy setup! like the beams engine.
Do you need a special timing light for these engines?? Or have they done away with the need for it all together? And the computer just assumes the cams and crank are installed in the right orientation and thats all it needs.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 06:06
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1) Connect timing light to system with testing probe connected to the igniter check wire.
2) Test timing the conventional way.
3) ?????
4) Profit
5) Be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
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Location:
Central Coast, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 06:06
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Does the 2JZ-GTE have a diagnostic panel which can return you error codes?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 30 August 2005 07:39
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If it works GT's way thats good, but I think some timing lights don't like it so much (mine anyway), here is my method:
1) Get old lead like coil to plug or dizzy to plug and cut one end off, exspose core by striping insulation.
2) Remove coil pack, wedge stripped end into coil, put other end on spark plug
3) Test timing conventionally by placing lead thingy onto your new lead thingy
4) Have a beer to ponder results from timing check and plan phase 2 attack
5) ?????
6) Profit
7) Be touched by His Noodly Appendage.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Wed, 31 August 2005 00:00
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1) Get FSM to touch 2JZ with noodly appendage
2) 2JZ feel much better
3) ????
4) Profit
5) Fit FSM emblem to 2JZ
???????????????????????????
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Location:
WA
Registered:
May 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Wed, 31 August 2005 02:35
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cam timing could be an issue.
Man, check all of the sensors are in good nick and their connectors are all good.
Also, see if u can borrow another ECU to see whether ur current one is ruined or not. Are you getting good spark? Is ur cam timing good? The computer "assumes" a crankposition and works off that, much like the VG30 motors in the Z32.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Wed, 31 August 2005 03:18
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If you think about it, this has to be a mechanical problem, not an electronic problem. No amount of electronic tomfoolery can generate 0.5 bar on an unloaded engine. If it was possible, I'd set my car up to do this on purpose - cheap antilag!
As mentioned the engine runs smoothly and drives fine (apart from having a lot less power than it should), the auto even shifts properly, so a munted ECU isn't a likely culprit.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Wed, 31 August 2005 07:06
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Norbie,
When I was setting up my Haltech I had the base timing retarded by 15 dgrees. In this condition I could generate 1psi boost free revving. This was spooling both 1JZ turbos so I can see how you could generate 0.5 bar from the primary 2JZ sequential turbo.
The car drove fine but was gutless, made good boost super early and would have glowing exhaust manifolds.
If the cam is out then the timing would be out by the way the CAS works, so I still think this may be a cause of the problem, don't count it out.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Wed, 31 August 2005 08:07
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Thanks for the info, that's quite useful.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 05 September 2005 01:19
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*bump*
Checked the cam timing yesterday, it's fine.
Disconnected the exhaust after the dump pipe, started the engine - no change in the engine's behaviour, except it was much louder. Oh, I did notice it backfired a lot when revving the engine, which wasn't noticeable when the exhaust was connected.
Sounds more and more like the ignition timing is out, which sucks because you can't adjust it! Plus I don't have a timing light that will work on an engine without plug leads. Does anyone know where I can get one?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 05 September 2005 11:01
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Haha!! Already a thread on Toymods about this!
Ok, i found out today that it could possibly be a dead MAP sensor which could make the ecu severely retard the timing and also run uber-rich.
This could also explain the back-fire we had and the hotter-than-i-expected engine bay.
Hopefully we can test a working sensor on it this weekend and then all ive gotta do is find a new sensor! (Which may even be sorted out already!!) 
(Oh yeah, by the way this is my car we're talking about. )
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 06 September 2005 05:33
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To test your theory on the munted MAP sensor.... there are a hektik 3 wires on the MAP sensor to measure (E2, VCC and PIM at the ECU on most toyota ecu's) with even the cheapest of multimeters which can measure Voltage (DC).
- Turn engine off, but IGN on, you should measure these three voltages - 0Vdc, ~1.5-2.0Vdc, and 5Vdc.
- The wire what measured ~1.5-2.0Vdc is the output. His Holy Norbieness should know which is which anyway. (you want the pin named PIM on the ecu, usually lightgreen-red)
- With engine running at idle, you should have a voltage at PIM that is DIFFERENT to when it was turned off - it should be quite close to zero.
- Continuting to measure the voltage, get the engine to make boost and the PIM voltage should be higher than when turned off.
- If the above is incorrect, check vacuum lines to MAP sensor and replace where munted. Else replace MAP sensor
- ........?
- Profit
- Be touched by His Noodly appendage
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 06 September 2005 05:37
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munted is now my favourite word.
Munted (adj): To be broken or damaged. eg: "Bubbles is munted in the head"
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 06 September 2005 05:41
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| draven wrote on Tue, 06 September 2005 15:07 |
eg: "Bubbles is munted in the head"
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he infests the entire forum, does he not
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 06 September 2005 06:45
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The socks couldn't have damaged the vanes on the compressor wheels, changed angles changing airflow?
Just a thought?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Fri, 09 September 2005 14:13
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Thanks WITZL, im printing that off to take home and test it.
clubagreenie: No they dont appear to be damaged and that wouldnt be the cause of this problem anyway.
Does anyone know where to get a decently priced OBD1 diagnostics reader from?? A guy at work told me super cheap sells them for like $50 but of course..they dont.
Ive tried a few place but I didnt get alot of time between getting paid and when everywhere shut.
Ive gotta try and get one before Norbie comes around tomorrow or ill get in trouble.
(I have no gauges to get codes from the check engine light yet, I though it would be easier/quickly to just wire up the 4 or so wires need for the diagnostics reader.)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Fri, 09 September 2005 14:16
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You can use either a multimeter or a parking/indicator/interior globe for a temporary check light
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Fri, 09 September 2005 18:30
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jaycar sells the OBD-II connectors... but they ARE NOT cheap!!
scan tools are typically a few hundred bucks, up to a grand or more for the good ones!
Norbie can live with it
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sat, 10 September 2005 13:09
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Yeah I drove to about 6 different places but no one even knew what a diagnostics reader was. Repco said they thought they had what I wanted, little bit expensive though........$8,000!
The MAP sensor was fine so there goes the last of our easy solutions.
Anyway, it was a bit of a mission to get the damn check engine light working (the diag plug on inlet manifold must have been connected through my severed body loom), then after a bit of mucking about we finally got her into diagnostics mode.
Code 12: Cam position sensor or crank angle sensor
Norbie reckons crank angle sensor is more likely because the mechs would have had to play around down in that area when they did the timing belt. Possibly broke something in the process. 
So I guess this week is gonna be a busy week of research for me. Ive got absolutely no idea about this sort of thing. I know what a crank angle sensor does, and is somewhere around the crankshaft. Thats about it.
Anyone know of a possible easy-fix that I should try before I pull the radiator, water pump, blah blah out of my engine bay??
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sat, 10 September 2005 13:50
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Factory ecu. Engine wiring has not been touched.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sat, 10 September 2005 14:06
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well that's what the "mechanics" say
Vote 1- teh mongo mechanic munted it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 11 September 2005 01:42
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The 1UZ will throw code 12 when one (or two) of the cam gears are one tooth off.
I know you've checked the cam timing, but the amount of time people swear they've checked it, and its still wrong.
Failing that one of the sensors would be stuffed, but thats super easy to check with a multimeter.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 11 September 2005 06:03
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Sadly the only way to properly check the timing is to pull the timing cover etc off. Big PITA on a 2JZ, but it looks like we have little choice.
Having looked at a 2JZ on the weekend with aftermarket manifolds, I know where the cam sensors are now - and they're practically invisible with the stock plenum. So I suggest step 1 will be to remove the plenum and check the wiring to the cam sensors, and possibly swap them for known good ones (ie mine). This will be a pretty big job though, it means two 2JZ's need to come apart. I've never pulled my plenum off but it looks like a shitty job. 
Then if that doesn't fix the problem, step 2 is to pull the timing gear apart, triple-check the cam timing and if that checks out ok have a look at the crank sensor/wiring.
And if THAT'S not it I give up. This engine is cursed!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 11 September 2005 07:30
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are the 2jz cam sensors harder to get to than the 1jz? 'cause although it's a slut it can be done with the manifold attached (depends how much you hate taking manifolds off I guess )
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
January 2005
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 11 September 2005 22:51
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Is your ECU throwing an error code? Check this and get back to us.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 01:09
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Beer/pizza sounds good but youll have to post a pic before I agree to anything else.
I guy on the US Supraforums said after his conversion he had a disconnected cam position sensor. Ive asked him if he had the cam cover off or anything. If it turned out that something was just unplugged I will be very happy. Ill PM him and ask how he plugged it back in.
I would MUCH rather break my arm in a couple places to get to a wire than pull the entire plennum off just cos its in the way.
I havent looked into where the sensor is but maybe just the TB and IC piping would have to come off? This would help a little wouldnt it?
Norbie: Im not gonna make you take your engine apart to check if sensors work. There are resistance levels I can test to see if my sensors are dead. If it goes further than sensor, I will take further action against the mechs to get this sorted out. They can replace the whole damn engine if they have to.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 01:40
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there are 2 of them. 1 between injectors 5 & 6, 1 between injectors 1 & 2 (I think)
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 04:59
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2JZGTE cam angle sensors are in the same position as the 1JZ-GTE ones - very easy to get to without dissasembly of anything.
Central one is exhaust and rear one is intake cam sensor as circled in the pic below
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 05:11
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Hmm, that pic makes it look easy but the plennum is missing.
Ill have a look and take some pics of mine tonight. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 05:25
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They are much easier to get to than the 6 injectors deeper down which themselves are a simple process.
You'll kick yourself at how simple it is.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Mon, 12 September 2005 05:42
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Manny, I soooooo hope you right!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 13 September 2005 02:23
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| Norbie wrote on Mon, 12 September 2005 08:51 |
Is your ECU throwing an error code? Check this and get back to us.
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excuse the noobie q
but how is that done?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 13 September 2005 02:52
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Have a look on http://www.mkiv.co.nz/, there's an article there explaining how to pull error codes. It's pretty easy to do.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 13 September 2005 07:24
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Ok I checked the cam position sensors last night. None were unplugged but I couldnt get the damn things off very easily and I was in a hurry so I havent checked the resistance across them yet. Ill try again tonight.
They arent too hard to reach but theres not much room to get your fingers around the little connector thing.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 18 September 2005 09:11
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Norbie, I've having a think about this, and maybe you have the same problem as the 1JZ I'm working on.
Reset the ECU (to clear the codes)
Put the bridge jumper in, and then turn the key to ON
If the CEL flashes normal for 3 secs, and THEN goes into code 12, you have bad wiring.
On the 1JZ I'm working on, I'm betting that STA has IG+ to it, and not STA.
So the ECU is getting crank signal, but no RPM signal
Hence code 12.
Also, if this is the case, then while running, the ECU would be running in the START map.
Start timing, start enrichment etc etc.
I don't have a boost guage on the car I'm working on, so couldn't tell you if its making any boost at idle.
Something to think about though.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Sun, 18 September 2005 09:24
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Well I pretty much copied the wiring from my car when I wired this thing up, so I'd like to think I'm not stupid enough to connect STA to IG+... worth checking out though.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 20 September 2005 01:58
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Hmmm, this could be interesting. How do I check it??
Ive nearly got all the radiator and stuff out but Im more than willing to put it back in if I dont need to go any further with the crank angle sensor idea. I dont wanna pay/wait for a new sensor from Japan. :S
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Weird 2JZ problem!
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Tue, 20 September 2005 02:06
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Now I think of it....wasnt it the IG+ wire that had conflicting info on the 2 different pinout sheets we had?
I dont think the other option for it to be wasnt STA though, i think it was something completely random and not required to run the engine. (Suspension or something)
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