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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
December 2004
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3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 05:42
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hey! I was just wondering...I guess a bit about my car...it's a 1991 Toyota Celica with a 3S-FE in it...and I was considering putting a 5S-FE in it I guess basically just to be able to muck around with trying to put an engine into a car and what not...just seeing how it's done and all, so maybe at a later stage I can muck around with putting more potent engines in my car...but anyway...
I was just wondering like...because I fully have NO idea...like...I'm just firstly wondering whether it's worth it...? I guess compared to getting a mechanic to do it...like...I've heard it is, as it's mostly just labour to get engine's in and out...? and I guess I'm also then wondering how would I go about doing it...? Like...would I need any new or extra parts, or is it basically just getting my hands on an engine crane and some spanners and reading a ST184 manual...?
Also, is there any difference if the engine comes from a camry rather than a celica...? Or if it's auto rather than manual, which mine is...? and just out of interest, anyone know anything about jap spec 5S-FEs...?
Yeah...hopefully someone can help me with all this...thanks!
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Location:
Melbourne - NthSubs
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 06:31
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y not a 3sge?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 06:37
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firstly do you want to turbo it?, 5sfe wont make a big difference, but it is considerable, though i wouldnt bother with it. 3sge would be the way to go if you want to stay n/a, and for turbo obviously 3sgte. Do you have a budget set?.
Cheers SMT.
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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 12:15
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I guess the main reasons...like...3S-GE's are hard to find unless I import it...like...from a 182 or 202...and that'd posisbly end up being as expensive as getting a 3S-GTE here...? Or if I got a 3S-GE out of an MR2...I've heard they don't wire up properly or something...so that makes it a bit harder to just take out and drop back in...? and 3S-GTE I reckon would take a fair bit of cash to get all nice and clean...I geuss the reason why a 5S-FE is mainly because I think I might be able to get one at a pretty cheap price, and therefore I can just use it to learn about like...taking out and dropping in an engine and what not...? I guess that's the main reason...? Then if I know what I'm doing, then probably a 3S-GTE later down the track, but I guess this is more sorta just for the heck of it as a cheap(comparative) learning tool...and sorta fun with the mates... but yeah...I guess that's why I ask about the install costs and stuff...? If it's still gonna cost like...$500 to get it in on my own, I might as well just look for a proper engine and do that...but if it's not too expensive...I thought like...why not...? you know...? ummm...but thanks for the opinions...and maybe if you guys could tell me if my thinking is flawed or what not.. I'd appreciate it...anyone got answers for the jap spec engine..? Or if it's the same from an auto Camry...? THanks!
-rob! <><
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Location:
Melbourne - NthSubs
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 12:43
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get a 3sge from a celica SX (unless they are crap?)
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Location:
Sydney / NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 13:53
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if there is nothing wrong with the 3SFE in the car at the moment, then i really wouldnt bother with the engine swap with a 5SFE, it is not going to make you grin from ear to ear with the difference. in my opinion save a little more cash and get something worth while into it, like a gen2/3 3SGE or GTE.
Karl
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Location:
new castle
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 13:53
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i'm buying a 3s-ge from a wreakers for 880 and its done 98,000k's so yeah not really that expensive
shop around at alot of wreakers there's still a few out there. there's a guy on here selling a whole 3s-ge front cut for like 1000 bucks i think. his name is jamier or something. just do a forum search for 3s-ge parts,
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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Wed, 31 August 2005 16:16
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Hmm...I guess the reason I was looking at a 5S was mainly because I might be able to find one for 100 - 200 bucks...? You know...? That seems like a fair price just to muck around with it...as long as installing it doesn't cost too much..? and I've heard 5S vs. Gen 1 3S-GE...the 5S is possibly a little bit better just because peak power is reached as lower rpm...? I dunno...I guess yeah, I mean, I did think of looking for a Gen 2 3S-GE, but I guess I got put off because I heard installing them were quite hard...but yeah...that okay reasoning...?
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 01:52
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OK first off since you have mentioned that your Celica is a 1991 model we can assume you mean it is an ST184 (5th gen Celica) model. That being said I'm a little mystified that it has a 3SFE in it, as these were sold in Aus with the 5SFE (2.2L) in the first place. Perhaps yours is an import of some kind (ST182?), in any case I'll take your word for it that there is currently a 3SFE (2.0L) in there that was factory fitted.
The 3SFE and 5SFE are virtually the same engine, the difference (and hence the '5' instead of the '3') being the capacity - 3SFE is 2.0 litres and 5SFE is 2.2 litres. I believe the extra 0.2L was acheived by lengthening the stroke, the bore may have been enlarged as well but I'm not sure. So the 5S will have a slight low down torque advantage over the 3S, but that's about it.
If you were to fit a 3SGE as has been suggested, you would need the loom and ECU that comes with it as well, as the current 3SFE ones you have now will not suit. This will in turn require the car's wiring to be adapted as well. For ANY engine you install, it will need to be from a 1991 model or later, as the engine is not allowed to be older then the car. So if considering a 3SGE, you could only go for a Gen 2 one onwards. A Gen 1 3SGE from an ST162 ('85-'89) Celica will be illegal.
I doubt you would need to get it engineered (because of the different engine code it is a completely different engine as far as the authorities are concerend) as ST184's were fitted with that engine here anyway. Check with your state regs or ask an engineer to be sure. Other than that it should be a very striaghtforward swap and if your main reason for doing it is just to do an easy swap and get some spanner experience, I say go for it.
Hope that helps,
Matt
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 04:22
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Thanks a lot for that Matt...okay...maybe i'll try this from a different angle...umm...how much harder/more expensive would it be to put a gen 2 3S in as opposed to putting a 5S in...? I've HEARD it's a lot harder...but is it really...? If it's not then I guess I might just do that...
To your other questions, it IS an ST184 so it SHOULD have a 5S in it...but the guy I got it off I think decided to go the cheap option and chuck in a 3S...so yeah...like...I don't know...but yeah...so i thought since i'll have a bit of time either over the mid semester break or over the holidays before my final year...I thought I might try and muck around with putting an engine in and out...?
Or...he he...my mechanic was also saying that we could just put a turbo on anything...so...like in the other thread about turbo'ing a 5S, i was thinking of just chucking a small turbo on and seeing what I can get outta the engine...although, I think that still would cost a fair bit and may not be worth it...? I don't know...what do you guys think...? If it's not that hard to chuck in a Gen2 3S-GE as opposed to the 5S, then I'd probably consider that instead...but yeah...let me know...thanks guys!
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 05:46
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Ah, the 3SFE was fitted later.....makes sense to me now!
Mechanically, fitting a 3SGE to your car will be dead easy - all the engine/gearbox mounts are the same. If you get a 2nd gen 3SGE the wiring should be relatively straightforward too (maybe even plug and play, but don't quote me) since the ST18x Celicas were fitted with the 2nd gen 3SGE in the JDM (ST182) models. If you can get an ST182 half cut then you'd be set. However, since the ST184 was never offered with the 3SGE (as opposed to the ST182 which was), you'd most likely need to get it engineered (not sure on the Vic regs) as the engine code is completely different.
If you just want a quick & easy swap to get a bit of experience, then dropping in a 5S would certainly be easier (not to mention cheaper), and won't need to be engineered. Check your ECU too (on the floor below the dash, behind the stereo) in case it was left alone when the 3SFE was swapped in. If it's still the original one (it should say 3S-F or 5S-F on the sticker on top somewhere) then the 5S swap will be even easier!
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Location:
Melbourne, Victoria
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 06:52
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Okay...kool...that sounds alright...umm...I guess...like...I don't want to spend heaps on my car yet...I guess just because I'm still sorta tossing up the money vs worth sorta thing...but I guess something like this, I would hope won't set me back heaps plus I might get some good experience out of it...? So yea..I guess that's why I ask...Like...I wouldn't want to spend...hmm..definately not over a grand...I guess...as little as possible...just like I said...if it becomes something over a grand, then I might as well just save up and go for a 3S-GTE...
But in saying all that, I would think my 2 options are the 5SFE or the Gen 2 3SGE from an MR2...? Coz I would think it'd be hard and expensive finding a ST182 halfcut...? But yeah...would it be hard to mount and wire up the 3S from the mr2s? or much more harder than the 5SFE...? Also, roughly what would I need? Like, again with my starting questions, roughly how much does it cost if I do the engine swap myself and all...?
I guess I'm still just trying to find out if it's worth it or not and what not...so yeah... and just another thing, how do I get to my ECU...? do I have to dismantle a fair bit to get to it...? Or...? Yeah...well...thanks a lot!
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 08:08
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okay my question is... are you doing it because:
you want to go faster
you want to learn how to do it
both
you just want to go faster, 5SFE wont be a huge improvement (as the others have said), i'd go a 3SGE
if you want to learn how to do it, i'd go 5SFE or 3SGE
if you want both, and you dont want to spend a fortune, i'd go 3SGE, if u want it to be awesomer, but a little more pricey and difficult, 3SGTE.
(just so u know, i havent changed my engine yet, im just going off what i've read places, and what seems to be general concensus.)
[Updated on: Thu, 01 September 2005 08:09]
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Central Coast, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Thu, 01 September 2005 22:44
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Perhaps if you just want to do it for fun, and to know how to do it, just take the 3SFE and associated bits out, and just clean/paint stuff and then re-assemble it?
That way you get the fun of removing an engine, installing an engine and everything will be all purdy and shiny after cleaning it...
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Registered:
June 2005
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Re: 3S-FE -> 5S-FE...?
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Fri, 02 September 2005 08:16
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Hey,
I recently put a gen 3 3S-GE from a 1995 MR2. The engine had done 60,000 kms. I picked it up for $650, plus $350 for loom and ecu. I didnt do this for power or anything, but because my gen1 died in the ass. It was a bit of a bitch to change over, but im waiting to see the result. My advice would be to buy a 3sgte engine without the turbo, Then later when you've saved the money add the turbo on. Remember the 3sge cannt be turned into a turbo unless all the internals are rebuilt. So make sure its a 3sgte engine.
Cheers, Errol
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