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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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 More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 13:22
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I have a new Corolla 1984 KE Wagon. Yes I said new, it has done 2100K as it was in the shed for 13 years, I like this car a lot but I live in the Adelaide hills and it just dosn't have enough grunt to climb the freeway at 100k without keeping my foot flat, the Echo we have dose it no problems and its 1300cc like the Corolla. now I know its a very different engine with twin cam 16 valve and VVTI but I was hoping I would be able to find a bolt on twin cam head for the corolla, however it doesn't look like this posible, so here is the question. I want a more efficent engine I don't want a racer, I know what can be done with the K4 as I raced Clubmans for manny years but hotting up this engine will use lots of fuel an in a road car wont last long. So folks any Ideas? Is there a 1300 twin-cam that will fit without big problems. Any other ideas will be good.
Thanks all. 
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 13:27
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Twin cam K heads are, uhmm, very rare/expensive. Surely oldcorollas would murder you if he knew you had one  Best bet is to throw in a 4AG - hardly imaginative, but easy to do, and will give you a little bit more go without hurting the fuel bill too badly.
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On Probation
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 14:38
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The twincam head is long gone; tis was a toyota test head.
Only 2100kms on this ke70?
send me pictures !
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 15:00
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Pity there is no bolt on, no need to play with mounts, clutch etc. but there you go, may be I should just port the head and put a webber on it. I dont mean the Barbi - the carbi. how do I send you picks? I have some. the engine still has those silly paper stickers on it. they usually go after the first service. 
J
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 15:09
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Steal some parts from an AE71 and a 4AG practically WILL bolt in without needing to make mounts, fiddle with clutch, tailshaft, etc. at all. Been well covered here before, do some searchin'
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 15:22
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OK I will have to look at it in more detail, I did some research and it looked like there were quite major changes for any of the twin cam engines, but if its easy to put an injected twin-cam in then that would be the way to go, if its not to expensive - though I suppose I could alway sell one of my kids
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 15:27
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Well when I did my old hack KE70 it didn't cost too much, and it doesn't need to so long as you can rattle a spanner yourself.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sat, 10 September 2005 15:33
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I have an adjustable spanner where my right hand use to be - and its metric
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 02:10
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Do you have a Whitworth hammer on the end of your left arm?
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 12:19
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No, a left handed screw driver 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 13:47
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i was going to ad something useful.. but i see the thread has already deteriorated
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 13:55
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Sorry. I'm also a Doctor not a comedian, or a mechanic and I still would like some useful tips, I have more or less decided to put a 1600 twin cam injected, no charger or turbo.
I want it as new, restored and fuel efficient.
any suggestions would be welcome so fire away.
J
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 14:19
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Heh, Stew is only cut because its turned into A series engines 101 rather than pushroddy K "goodness"
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 14:30
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Well I haven't decided yet, if I thought I could get the economy from the tricked up K4
I would do it. I went up the hill earlier, 'you know the one to Stirling' and as I was low on gas I had to back off, being passed by semis in the slow lane is no fun. 
J
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 14:35
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I dont actually know the hill, im an interstater and only moved here this year. Slowly getting to know my way around.
How hard would the climb to "the Eagle" be for you?
Even a 4AG carby would be pretty good on a KE70. Sure it woudlnt be as good on the fuel though.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 14:46
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Well that climb is easer than staying on the freeway that you start on to get to the eagle.
In-fact if I'm real low on juice I go on the old road past the eagle cos I can do 60k and save petrol. if I want to stay on the freeway at 100k I have to be flat to the boards all the time, and even with the little 1300 I can see the petrol gauge moving down.
I really need a better power to weight so I can lay of the throttle a bit.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 14:55
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Yeah, the GZE which i have just eats up that big climb to the Eagle, and for that matter all of the big hills in Adelaide.
A 4AGE in a KE70 would do it quite well, just dont add big cams
P.S. You mentioned that you are a doc, where be you working?
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:06
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Adelaide Uni Mondays only as of next month Lecturing - Have a Doco company thats my main stay, but still not enough to spend big on the 70. Was in Sydney at Macquary Uni AFTRS for five years then in London at the LIFS. before coming back to SA.
J
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:14
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Interesting. Which year at Adelaide, or are you lecturing on a specific speciality?
My GF is 2nd year at Adelaide.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:23
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a specific specialty - Film / TV industry. All years but not many hours unfortunately.
Good to know there is another toyo nut there. will have to meet next month.
J
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:32
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Hehe, i just realised you meant Doctor in a different way, i was thinking Med.
My gf is doing Med at Adelaide.
Im finishing off a CS/Psych degree.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:42
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Yeh I'm a real doc - you know PhD. - D for Doc not "Med deg". Did Physics/Earth Sc at Flinders.
May know your GF met lots of med student there last month.
What year CS/Physics?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:44
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Heh, not Physics. Psychology.
Final year at AU, and then i get to go back to living in the real world.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:49
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| jeffm wrote on Mon, 12 September 2005 01:42 |
Yeh I'm a real doc - you know PhD. - D for Doc not "Med deg".
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yes yes, aren't we all
4K in KE70 is restricted by the crappy air filter housing compared to earlier models.
fuel injected K series will be much better on fuel and power.
or mod the air cleaner setup to have remote flat panel airbox, or crappy foam filter with cold air feed.
the K motor really wants larger exhaust ports, 10mm cam lift and EFI, as well as extractors and jaycar HEI
4AC will have beeter power and economy is good.
4AG is ok, but 4AC's are given away free and are really not that bad for an econo-box..
pushrod goodness my arse, there is no such thing
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:52
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Haha, thats why it is "goodness". indi seems to have that disease as well.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 15:57
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Sorry about that, very different. Well to get back on to the subject at hand. have you put an aXXX in the a 70. I have looked at this site and get conflicting info, how much conversion am I going to have to do to get an A into the beast just the 1600 EFI standard chip and cams, I get mixed messages about the box and clutch, wiring etc. I can see to put the 71 cross bar in but do I need the 71 block or just the Xbar?
I dont want it to turn into an on going project as I need to use the car.
J 
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Sun, 11 September 2005 16:15
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Well as I'm still concerned about how much I need to do to get a twin cam into the 70 I would happily look at the idea of a SOHC on the same mounts and bell as the 70.
My son has an Hundi 1500 SOHC injected and it goes up the hill very well on half the fuel, it is much lighter though if you lean on it with your elbow it dents and thats on the door pillars thats strongest panel.
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Location:
Melbourne, Vic
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 08:15
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Has anyone considered a worked K engine running on straight LPG?
Economy would be good still with the price of gas , and i'm sure the right compression figures could be used with a worked 3k head etc. Maybe even go the whole hog with a gas reasearch carb?
Just curios...
Cheers
-Phil
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 08:24
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you mean like Brad with the LPG SC14 5K?
meh GRA is no better than using the correct Impco bits
if you were getting serious, you would use vapour injectors..
but this is OT.
jeff, a 4AC from an AE71, using cross-member from AE71 and AE71 T50 gearbox will be easy and have much more grunt than the 4K. it is still carby, and pretty efficient and going to 4AG will be over the top for you, as well as more expensive and more hassle with wiring and fuel etc..
4AC with T50 is the easiest way to go. ppl remove them from AE86 spoontahs all the time to fit 4AG's, and they are given away (or near enough to it). the 4AC (as your google search will find) is SOHC.
the hydraulic pedal box from AE71 will also be needed...
in fact, just find a smashed AE71 and swap the running gear over.
or just modify the air cleaner housing as i suggested before and it will be helpful. also change to a non vac operated secondary and remove the high speed valve from the carby.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 08:28
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| jeffm wrote on Mon, 12 September 2005 02:15 |
Well as I'm still concerned about how much I need to do to get a twin cam into the 70 I would happily look at the idea of a SOHC on the same mounts and bell as the 70.
My son has an Hundi 1500 SOHC injected and it goes up the hill very well on half the fuel, it is much lighter though if you lean on it with your elbow it dents and thats on the door pillars thats strongest panel.
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that depends on what the parts cost to you, and how much you do yourself.
no SOHC or DOHC will fit to your current K50 gearbox.
to go 4A anything will require a T50 box.
no SOHC or DOHC will fit to your current engine mounts.
to go 4A anything requires AE71 cross-member (the crosss-member has mounts further apart).
to get more economy from your 4K, either change the air cleaner and keep iot carby, OR
change to 4KE or 7KE fuel injection gear.
please accept this as advice from one non-comedian doctor to another
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 09:31
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Not a bad idea with the gas but I have a station wagon for a reason I need the space I go to Tin Can Bay several times a year fully loaded with dingy OB and camping stuff. another reason I need a better power to wight.
I went an saw a mate today. a wrecker friend, an old ex racer, he seems to think the early sillycar engine and gb will go straight in. Is this likely?
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 09:42
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Advice accepted, I like the Idea of just fitting EFI, and Elec ignition, I don't need much more power and it seems to me that this would do the tric. Fuel injection is so much more efficient.
What is required to fit EFI to my excising K4 it is so good in every other respect I would rather not chance to an engine thats done big Ky's.
THX
J
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Location:
Melbourne, Vic
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 11:06
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| oldcorollas wrote on Mon, 12 September 2005 18:24 |
you mean like Brad with the LPG SC14 5K?
meh GRA is no better than using the correct Impco bits
if you were getting serious, you would use vapour injectors..
but this is OT.
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I havent seen this 5k you speak of. Any pics / links??
I plan to rebuild the 4k in my wagon later on, just throwing ideas around. To go straight gas, in the wagon you could turf the tank and remove the spare wheel, probably giving room for a tank underneath. Maybe put the spare wheel on the roof lol  .
Only problem with that is when you run out of gas, you need to tow it to a servo.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 11:12
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| jeffm wrote on Mon, 12 September 2005 19:42 |
Advice accepted, I like the Idea of just fitting EFI, and Elec ignition, I don't need much more power and it seems to me that this would do the tric. Fuel injection is so much more efficient.
What is required to fit EFI to my excising K4 it is so good in every other respect I would rather not chance to an engine thats done big Ky's.
THX
J
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the EFI starlets (82-83ish models in US) go nicely with stock 4K and EFI.
you need.
4KE or 7KE manifold, injectors, throttle body, fuel rail, pressure reg, damper.. the usual.
EFI fuel pump. internal one adapted from AE82 or similar would probably work.
use existing METAL fuel lines, change rubber to EFI rated.
Megasquirt ECU (DIY type EFI ECU, please google and understand what you are getting into)
a couple of camira temp sensors
EGO sensor.
thats about it.
and it is a 4K.... not a K4.... thats why the block has 4K stamped on it....
unless you actually have a K motor which would be a bit weird.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 14:35
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I guess I could start going on all day here... I've had a slightly played with 4K on LPG, a 4AC on LPG and put a 4AG into my KE70 crapbox. Oh, and LPG is a mild fascination of mine... Both engines were heaps happier on LPG that with the horrible little carbs they come with, the 4AG is still going on petrol though for now.
My 4AG with ECU, RWD manifold etc. cost me $400, I paid about $200 for an AE71 wreck for gearbox, tailshaft, pedals, Xmember, etc., fitted a new clutch, and made the rest up out of stuff that was lying around. It doesn't have to be hard, or expensive, long as you keep your eye open for parts and don't let people rip you off.
Another thing to try might be a 5K on LPG with EFI manifold, head and cam tickle, exhaust, etc.
Personally I wouldn't bother with a 4AC - while mine did me well for a little while, I just can't get into them really.
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Mon, 12 September 2005 16:51
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4age + ae86/ae71 Crossmember + Mounts, Loom, gearbox, pedals (something about the ke70 and ae71 using different methods of actuating the loud pedal.
Assuming you source a FWD 4age (all the newish aus spec corollas etc.)
You will need a RWD intake manifold, the FWD and RWD are different, in that, the FWD inlet faces the firewall when bolted in a RWD car, the RWD manifold effectivly takes the throttle body and spins it around so that it faces the front of the car.
My friend is doing this conversion to his Ke70, if you want pics, i could snap a couple, if theres anythign specific
of course, theres things like flywheel, clutch etc.
apparantly its a simple as install, since everythings bolt in, the biggest issue i can imagine would be wiring it up, since i hate wires.
Eldar.O.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 11:45
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| Quote: |
4K in KE70 is restricted by the crappy air filter housing compared to earlier models.
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Oldcorollla I yeald to your superior knowledge and wisdom.
Prior to going up the hill tonight I removed the top of the air cleaner.
Now this was not a properly conducted experiment but when you know that for ninety percent of the trip you usually have the 'not very loud' peddle flat to the boards in order maintain 80K and tonight was around half for all of the trip, except when passed another car (the only time it was flat) yes I passed another car, you don't need much more evidence to see the marked improvement in performance and I assume economy.
(For this to have made such a difference they (Toyota) must have really stuffed up the gas flows on this model. (bad Bernoulli on the 70)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 12:37
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on the earlier KE models, they have a much taller air cleaner, the KE70 one is maybe 1/2 the height (but larger diameter).
on KE10's to KE70's, removing the lid, or cutting away the sides always makes running at highspeed much much better...
and louder... much louder
xK powered vans have a hat on top of the carby to duct air in from a remote air cleaner.. you could use something simple like that to go to even a VN commondore airbox ($30-40 new) or any you have lyign around...
i used chikcken wire and duct tape, and later moved "up" to PVC.. worked nicely
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 12:43
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[quote title=oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 13 September 2005 22:37]
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i used chikcken wire and duct tape, and later moved "up" to PVC.. worked nicely
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It worked for apollo 13
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 15:00
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OK all, so that we can put this thread to rest for a time. Firstly let me thank you all for your help.
This is what I will do, in the short term.
Improve Fuel / Air flow. Weber or EFI. I'll let you know.
Stage 2 When I have every thing inplace, change to modern twin-cam EFI.
I will slowly acquire Axxx and renew or bye renewed, as well as all other bolt on bits.
When everything is ready I'll do the conversion. Again I'll keep ya posted.
I was going to bye a new car next year a new corolla or Echo, but now I will just do this one up, after all it is new.
The other thing is that as there is no play anywhere, it is very precise to drive,
and RWD, this I also prefer. We have a 2005 Echo Rush and it is very sloppy compared to this K70.
So thats it, I will keep you up to date as things progress.
J
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 15:14
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early euro weber.. try and get a primary choke similar to the original carb.. ie around 22mm... the 26/27 of the 32/36 ford weber suck.
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Tue, 13 September 2005 15:59
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Oldtoyota.My Wrecky friend is looking for a sillycar carb and mf how would that be?
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Frankston, Victoria
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Thu, 06 October 2005 14:02
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Yeah I found cutting a bunch of holes in the side of my air box worked wonders... You could also put some premium in it and adjust your timing slightly up to suit (ie. turn the dizzy a few degrees). In it's last days I took the entire airbox off and it must have gained a kW or two hahah, also sounded a hell of alot more beefier .
I say go 4AGE though, 3 weeks into my conversion, I'm almost done. Would have been alot faster if I had've sourced all the parts I needed in the first place though. I'd say if you sat there and flat stick worked all out for about 2-3 days, and you had all the parts required, the 4AGE conversion would be done, right from taking out the 4KC to starting up the 4AGE. All up the conversion has costed me $1450, which isn't too bad considering some of that was courier fees and other deliveries, and that my 4AGE is a JDM 96kW, and that it has only 10,000kms since rebuild... It will be well worth it...
Kev.
Edit: (Lol should have turned to the second page... No matter..)
[Updated on: Thu, 06 October 2005 14:04]
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Location:
Adelaide / Tin Can Bay
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Thu, 06 October 2005 14:47
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Phrotbyte.
In fact I have now done exactly this I dilled large holes in the top of the air cleaner outboard of the filter, this though still impedes the performance so its not just air volume that is the problem, I suspect that the dome on the underside of the top plate is cursing non laminar air flow and this is the problem for if I remove the top the increase as measured by my test is dramatic.
I will in the short term just change the carb, next year I will decide weather to get ether a new car or keep this, if I keep this car I will put a twin-cam of some description and do other mods to the car to modernize it - but not change its external appearance.
Still let me know how your converted car feels. I would like to know.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Frankston, Victoria
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Thu, 06 October 2005 15:16
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This is what you should have done, and should still do
Kev.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Thu, 06 October 2005 22:45
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Picture tells a thousand words.
Did you cut it like that on the other side too?
I am going to do this to my ke70
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Frankston, Victoria
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: More efficent KE70 would be nice
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Fri, 07 October 2005 03:03
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Yep I did it all around the airbox, wherever I could fit a hole, I put a hole.
Kev.
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