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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 05:31
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What would the benefits of having a twin injection car?
I can't find much information on google, the alfa romeo has twin injection engines, but there isn't much information about it.
It looks like this subject is a bit taboo.
Any information on how to tune and modify the engine to suit twin injection and the pros and cons of it?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 05:57
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 15:31 |
What would the benefits of having a twin injection car?
I can't find much information on google, the alfa romeo has twin injection engines, but there isn't much information about it.
It looks like this subject is a bit taboo.
Any information on how to tune and modify the engine to suit twin injection and the pros and cons of it?
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what is twin injection?
where you have two sizes of injectors?
please clarify your question
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:03
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Im not sure either, it could be two spark plugs per cylinder.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:07
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the lombardini engine is a twin injection DIESEL engine.
what are you trying to ask?
alfa have twin spark, but so did the 3TGTE. top fuel cars also have twin spark 
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:10
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I see, sorry. Got them mixed up.
Its more about the twin injection that I'm interested in.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:12
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what is twin injection and what do you want to know about it?
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:14
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 16:12 |
what is twin injection and what do you want to know about it?
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I want to no what twin injection is and why is it used, also what are the pros and cons.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:23
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do you mean staged injection ( very popular with high power rotaries) where you have 2 banks of different sized injectors (so each inlet runner has size A & B injeector).
Allows you (with the right ECU) good control of fuel at low flow rates (e.g. idle - only using smaller injectors) and also at high flow (e.g. WoT under massive boost - both injectors in use at high duty rate) as you're not running injectors at close to 100% duty.
Downside is requiring an ECU to control two banks of injectors, the extra plumbing (usually 2 fuel pumps and two regulators to deal with the the massive flow you want at 100% power ouput), and the extra time to tune the ECU/engine for the complicated setup.
cheers, Charles.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:34
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i think he's just trolling to get post count up. what he originally referred to is a diesel engine 
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:47
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Is it ideal to have the injectors maxing out their cycle or should they be over sized to run at say max80%?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:14
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| clubagreenie wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 16:47 |
Is it ideal to have the injectors maxing out their cycle or should they be over sized to run at say max80%?
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80% is safe.. 90% might be.. depends on the opening and closing rates of the injector..
if duty is too high, then the injector may not fully close or become erratic in operation.. it also depends on how many injection events there are per engine cycle etc...
say it takes 2ms to open and close an injector. at 8000rpm, an engine cycle is 16ms.
1 injection event leaves 14ms for pulsewidth, and 12ms is 80% duty cycle (as measured conventionally) so you have 2ms to spare.
2 injection events means that you have 4ms of dead time, and 12ms of open time, ie 6ms per pulse... if you go above 6ms, the injector doesn't have time to open and close before next cycle.
so yeah, it depends on speed of injector (low impedance driven in peak and hold mode have faster opening times, but low imp with resistor is similar to high imp), and how many injection events.. each extra event per cycle reduces the allowable duty cycle due to the extra dead time needed for opening and closing...
aiui
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:19
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oh and the main reason (aiui) for havign stagd banks is the amount of fuel that si released by large injectors during their opening and closing time...
this amount cannot be changed as you can't reliably half or 3/4 open an injector...
and this amount of fuel may be too much for the engine at idle... and give poor idle fuel control due to the response to the tiny commanded pulsewidths.. (an injector fault, not ECU fault... most ECU'S have plenty of resolution, but injectors are not THAT precise when they are barely opening...)
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:20
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 16:34 |
i think he's just trolling to get post count up. what he originally referred to is a diesel engine
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NO.
If you have the money watch this dvd.
In the touge part, theres a ae86 coupe with twin injection running a 20v black top.
It doesn't say anything about, but the torque band was smooth all the way through the rev range.
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:37
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two injections are better than one
..
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 08:04
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oh and see that car in the bottom right corner??
i'm pretty sure i saw it (or a riced up version) the other day.. looked exactly the same and even had SOLBERG written on the rear windows..
at first i thougth it was just another riced up rex.. but i guess not
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 08:41
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Hi,
Twin injection is just a way to try and get EFI to deliver as smoothly and as reliably as a good carb set-up. 
nyuk nyuk nyuk
seeyuzz
river
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 10:00
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| river wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 18:41 |
Hi,
Twin injection is just a way to try and get EFI to deliver as smoothly and as reliably as a good carb set-up.
nyuk nyuk nyuk
seeyuzz
river
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arse about me thinks!
you use twin injectors to a pot, to get the best spray pattern{atomisation} at the right rev range etc etc. there are a few reason to use them but it take alot of engine dyno work to make use of them!plus it saves using buckets with holes{1800cc each injector}like we did with the v6 2.3 engine,can anyone say fouling plugs down low!
mick
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 11:45
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 18:04 |
oh and see that car in the bottom right corner??
i'm pretty sure i saw it (or a riced up version) the other day.. looked exactly the same and even had SOLBERG written on the rear windows..
at first i thougth it was just another riced up rex.. but i guess not
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No, that's Dori's car, the car I'm talking about is a levin coupe build by garage motore which is also in the DVD.
I think it's this engine.
and that's the car
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 11:49
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 21:45 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 18:04 |
oh and see that car in the bottom right corner??
i'm pretty sure i saw it (or a riced up version) the other day.. looked exactly the same and even had SOLBERG written on the rear windows..
at first i thougth it was just another riced up rex.. but i guess not
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No, that's Dori's car, the car I'm talking about is a levin coupe build by garage motore which is also in the DVD.
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acutally i was talking about the 2003 WRC RWX driven by Petta Solberg... as in that vid... and that i saw that car near my house last weekend...
but anyway...
so it has a second set of injectors.. big deal.... it's just a 20V
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:04
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 21:49 |
so it has a second set of injectors.. big deal.... it's just a 20V
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Ohhh... careful what you say Stewart-san. You will enrage the spoontah boys.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:10
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Nah, it's cool.
But it does seem like a good idea.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:17
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It doesn't seem like such a great idea when you are running both injectors at high rpm/load and one dies causing a big time lean out on that cylinder resulting in a burnt piston.
Commonly done - can run smaller cheaper injectors rather than uber exxy big ones, might help with location of injector and spray, looks bling - but there are pitfalls.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:33
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and since a 1.6L NA doesn't even use all that much fuel, there is no real advantage, except that ppl say "it was on a D1 dorifto car, it must be the best thing to do....
wings (on cars going sideways at low speeds )
rivets
etc etc... it's all about the bling
or becuase there is a tendency to use shitty piggyback computers and extra injector controllers instead of using a standalone ECU...
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:41
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Quite a few motorbikes run 2 injectors per cylinder
Taken from Motor Cyclist article about the Honda CBR 600 RR:
There's one in the normal place downstream of the throttle plate that operates alone below 5500 rpm. Above that speed, a second injector, located above the bellmouth, comes into play, providing the fuel necessary for high-rpm power.
Race bikes have used this setup for years.
I remember reading somewhere that the second injector also provides the cylinder with fuel in a more combustion friendly manner, something about the size of the fuel droplets after being sucked down through the bellmouths.
Why bother though?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:48
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| spirokeet wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 22:41 |
Quite a few motorbikes run 2 injectors per cylinder
Taken from Motor Cyclist article about the Honda CBR 600 RR:
There's one in the normal place downstream of the throttle plate that operates alone below 5500 rpm. Above that speed, a second injector, located above the bellmouth, comes into play, providing the fuel necessary for high-rpm power.
Race bikes have used this setup for years.
I remember reading somewhere that the second injector also provides the cylinder with fuel in a more combustion friendly manner, something about the size of the fuel droplets after being sucked down through the bellmouths.
Why bother though?
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bikes are difference as they actually have revs
at idle and low rpm (ie 5500) they don't use as much fuel... but to get to 14000rpm, they have a much smaller window of injection in which to play with...
ie at 6000rpm, one engine cycle is 20ms.
at 14000rpm, each cycle is 8.6ms....
you need much bgger squirters to be able to get the fuel in during that time period.. not so many ppl even think about how much timethere si to inject, but for high revving motors (i consider 8000 to be about the start of that), you have to consider how long you have to play with...
also... for the higher rpm bikes the second injector is before the TB, like in most decent race car setups, so the fuel has time to atomise better before it gets to cylinder, and has better distribution.... safr to have a small injector below the TB so that you don't get fuel pooling etc from the big injector at idle...
on a car to be road driven?? why bother indeed 
but if you are aiming for 400 ponies from something under 2L, chances are your idle will suffer if you have just a big set of squirters..
as i said, it's just a 20V... even 300cc injectors are probably a bit too big
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Location:
Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:49
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Dorio86
The twin injectors per cylinder you ask about may refer to when one injector is mounted close to the valves & another injector is fitted to inject into the trumpet from further out. The basic reason for this is because the inner injector may provide more low down performance with the outer injector providing more top end. The ecu controls the "phase in" of the outer injector, as the engine revs. increase, to provide the switch over.This is something you would only consider on a serious racing engine.
emmac.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 12:52
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thanks emmac. I'll do some research on it.
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:00
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 13:50 |
Like "what's the point of running 5 valves per piston when 4 valves are fine?"
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four valves are fine, the increase in power from a 5 valve Toyota head is due more to the angle of the valves and shape of the chamber than the number of valves.
five valves actually has more disadvantages than it has advantages.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:00
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 22:50 |
It's not a D1 car, it's not even a drift car has it runs soft suspension.
He's car, that was running twin injection Even Dori said when he was testing the car that the car had more horsepower than he's and feels even all the way through the rev range. What river said sounds right.
Now has anyone tried this because people's opinions doesn't really help. What people might think is right could be wrong.
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dude, this is bigger than D1.. and who the fuck is Dori.. and what does it have to do with how two sets of injectors are used>
your syntax is remarkably difficult to read.
"Dori said when he was testing the car that the car had more horsepower than he's and feels even all the way through the rev range"
ooh, it must be true cos soem guy can tell by the seat of his pants that is has more power than his (not HE'S ffs). what a load of crap.
yes people have tried it.. WHERE THEY NEEDED TO. ie bikes (from factory) and turbo Audis running 20-30psi of boost with a Megasquirt...
anyone who finds that their large injectors are too nig to provide good fuel for idle will use them.. thats it.
there is no "my mechanic said this and blah blah", there is a REASON they would be used, but it should be avoided unless it is NECESSARY.
and dont bring that 5 valve shit up again, you're just being a post whore, and don't really have any interest in this at all... if you did, you would have read the responses to this thread and understood why two injectors per cylinder would be used and would not still be asking.
OMG..... obviously you didn't realise that river was TAKING THE PISS
EFI will ALWAYS give better fuel amounts across the full range of an engines operation. carbs will always be limited at some point of the range.
shesh
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:03
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| spirokeet wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:00 |
| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 13:50 |
Like "what's the point of running 5 valves per piston when 4 valves are fine?"
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four valves are fine, the increase in power from a 5 valve Toyota head is due more to the angle of the valves and shape of the chamber than the number of valves.
five valves actually has more disadvantages than it has advantages.
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That's what I mean. But you would be surprised of the amount people that have the wrong idea about that.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:05
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:00 |
| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 22:50 |
It's not a D1 car, it's not even a drift car has it runs soft suspension.
He's car, that was running twin injection Even Dori said when he was testing the car that the car had more horsepower than he's and feels even all the way through the rev range. What river said sounds right.
Now has anyone tried this because people's opinions doesn't really help. What people might think is right could be wrong.
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dude, this is bigger than D1.. and who the fuck is Dori.. and what does it have to do with how two sets of injectors are used>
your syntax is remarkably difficult to read.
"Dori said when he was testing the car that the car had more horsepower than he's and feels even all the way through the rev range"
ooh, it must be true cos soem guy can tell by the seat of his pants that is has more power than his (not HE'S ffs). what a load of crap.
yes people have tried it.. WHERE THEY NEEDED TO. ie bikes (from factory) and turbo Audis running 20-30psi of boost with a Megasquirt...
anyone who finds that their large injectors are too nig to provide good fuel for idle will use them.. thats it.
there is no "my mechanic said this and blah blah", there is a REASON they would be used, but it should be avoided unless it is NECESSARY.
and dont bring that 5 valve shit up again, you're just being a post whore, and don't really have any interest in this at all... if you did, you would have read the responses to this thread and understood why two injectors per cylinder would be used and would not still be asking.
OMG..... obviously you didn't realise that river was TAKING THE PISS
EFI will ALWAYS give better fuel amounts across the full range of an engines operation. carbs will always be limited at some point of the range.
shesh
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Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
Anyway Dori, Keiichi Tsuchiya has in the drift king, the founder of drift
Rivets?? WTF
Im not being a post whore, 5 valve was just has an example.
Maybe river was taking the piss but according to Dori's comments he sounds righ, hey he just might be right.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 September 2005 13:09]
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:08
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Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
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KNOW
But yeah, welcome back Bubbles. We missed you...
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:09
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^ ^
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:09
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:05 |
Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
Anyway Dori, Keiichi Tsuchiya has in the drift king, the founder of drift
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I'm Australian (as most ppl who have ben around since BEFORE toymods came into existence would know), and i now live in japan..
and i couldn't give a flying kazoo about D1, because it's far too pretentious and is to car racing what synchronised swimming is to a 100m freestyle race.....
arent = aren't
no = know
has in the drift king = ????
Profit????
LOL, founder of dorfito people have been driving that way for decades....
you know D1 was just made up for TV sponsorship, and so that kiddies would buy more magazines????
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:15
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:09 |
| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:05 |
Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
Anyway Dori, Keiichi Tsuchiya has in the drift king, the founder of drift
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I'm Australian (as most ppl who have ben around since BEFORE toymods came into existence would know), and i now live in japan..
and i couldn't give a flying kazoo about D1, because it's far too pretentious and is to car racing what synchronised swimming is to a 100m freestyle race.....
arent = aren't
no = know
has in the drift king = ????
Profit????
LOL, founder of dorfito people have been driving that way for decades....
you know D1 was just made up for TV sponsorship, and so that kiddies would buy more magazines????
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Your the one asked me who he was. Know your saying that you don't care who he his. .
An again your starting put words in my mouth.
I'm not going to answer back to your ignorant comment's.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:17
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| Yian wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:08 |
| Quote: |
Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
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KNOW
But yeah, welcome back Bubbles. We missed you...
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Can you stop calling me bubbles, that's starting to annoy me
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:19
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:15 |
You're the one who asked me who he was. Know Now you're saying that you don't care who he his is. .
And again you're starting to put words in my mouth.
I'm not going to answer back to your ignorant comment's.
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fixed for you.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:21
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:17 |
| Yian wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 23:08 |
| Quote: |
Sorry, but arent you from Japan, you should no.
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KNOW
But yeah, welcome back Bubbles. We missed you...
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Can you stop calling me bubbles, that's starting to annoy me
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I only called you Bubbles once. But to annoy you, Hey Bubbles!!oneone!!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:26
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ok, getting back to the valves thing, sicne you wanted to go OT (was there a topic in the first place?? i thought it was twin jection in diesel engines.. but anyway..
as you should know, it is all about the effective "curtain" around the valves that can flow air.. there is not point having 6 valves if they are all shrouded so much that none of them can flow..
it can be shown mathematically that 4 valves is better than 2, but 5 better than 4?? compared to extra valve train weight, and extra valve shrouding??? it's a tough call...
in turbo applications, where flow is even more important in terms of the mass of air, 16 and 20V don't seem to be any different....
please respond with something at least a little bit technical...
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 13:49
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Dorio86: the correct term is staged injection - as mentioned in my original post to this thread - one smaller injector and one larger injector per inlet tract.
I've only ever seen this on cars with massive forced-induction systems - it appears to suit longer induction paths (like the inlet and TB for a turbo 20B in a drag car for example) than a short path like an 4AGE with ITBs
on the megasquirt forum (www.msefi.com - which oldcorollas and myself and other toymods users have lurked/got-involved for a few years now) there are a growing number of heavily-modified-engine users running multiple banks of injectors.
unless you were going to run your 4age with large amounts of boost (or something even sillier like convert to uber-low compression and race fuel and/or methanol) then i really can't see staged injection doing anything for you except have the ability to run massively rich, have less top-end power and coke up the head, zorst valves and zorst system prematurely.
cheers, charles.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 14:13
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for fucks sake. i think you should be banned for a complete lack of spelling ability.
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 14:19
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Bubbles bought a Haynes manual
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Twin injection benefits?
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Sat, 17 September 2005 15:10
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enough junk
thread locked
ask this question again in a new thread, with a more specific focus, if you require further clarification.
As to whether this is bubbles or not, that will be looked into
cheers
ed
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