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Location:
southern end of the weste...
Registered:
September 2005
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 how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 14:01
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ok so the fuel prices are a risein' me harteys (geting ready for tomorra you lubbers) sot he times acomin' to consider home-made fuel options.
im new to these forums so im not sure if ive got this in the right place but i wanna build a still to make the fore mentioned fuels. any helpful and informative details would be great so please step on up and share with me your wares.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 14:16
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| rn-85 wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 00:01 |
ok so the fuel prices are a risein' me harteys (geting ready for tomorra you lubbers) sot he times acomin' to consider home-made fuel options.
im new to these forums so im not sure if ive got this in the right place but i wanna build a still to make the fore mentioned fuels. any helpful and informative details would be great so please step on up and share with me your wares.
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to be honest, you will consume more electrical power than it would cost to buy at at what? $2-3 per litre... by distilling you only get to maybe 85 or 90% alcohol, and after that you ned drying agents to remove the water. as well as all the cooling water for conensing the vapour.
plus... you can ferment up to maybe 15% alcohol..
if you ue 50L of petrol a week, thats 100L of alcohol. = 670L of fermented solution, as long as you have 100% retention of the alcohol.
to ferment and distill 700 litres of brew each week is not reall feasible at home... and it's smell like buggery 
but if you are serious, you could start on a small scale with glas istillation gear from a lab supply place...
for bigger stuff,you may want copper or stainless as it has higher heat ransfer properties = faster throughput..
and you might want to check alcohol laws, i think exception may be taken to generating large volumes of alcohol without paying tax.
anyhoo, a few ideas/..
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 14:19
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oh, some russions i know get about 80% retention rate when distilling up to maybe 60 or 70% alcohol content.... for home consumed vodka of course
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 15:57
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| Quote: |
helpful and informative details
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ethane and methane are byproducts of the fractional distillation of crude oil,
crude oil becomes like 80% octane (C8H18, petrol)
then propane(C5H12) butane(C4H10) ethane(C3H8) and methane(C2H6)
anything left over is tar and bitumen
i see three solutions,
one is to ferment yeast (alot of yeast) the distill your crop of alcohol many times , - it needs to be quite pure,
two - buy some petrol and make your own methane/ethane to convert to their alcohol relatives. however this is totally not feasible, the energy that it takes to break a hydrocarbon chain is larger than the collective potential energy of the pieces,
thirdly buy some crude oil, you can look up the price on the stock exchange, and f. distill it yourself
NB: i think it may be illegal to run your own still as they are known to explode to to the volatility of alcohol
NB: volatility refers to a liquid's evaporation rate not its explosiveness
NB: i think it may be illegal to run your own refinery as it would undoubtedly be in violation of the kyoto protocol
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 22:37
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1.-- hack into 86tt's computer and steal the secret locations where the CIA is hording the planets growing supply of crude oil. Then sneak in there at night and steal it (dont worry about security, they will be too busy preparing for another phony terrorist attack).
2.-- go home and distil using the energy gained from burning hydrogen which you have electrolised from water.
3.-- ????
4.-- Profit!
PS. dont forget to wrap your head in aluminium foil
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 22:41
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I take it that the aluminium foil is a security measure. If you can't see them they can't see you.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 22:45
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Ethanol = Sugar + yeast + water, then distill it to remove the alcohol from the water  . I dare say its gonna cost more to produce it then it would be to just buy fuel especially when you count the time involved, let alone the danger of it.
We were distilling ethanol in chemistry and one of the bright sparks in our group decided to put the hose out the window that was running water to cool it down. The hose came off, water was going everywhere and in attempt to reattach the hose the distillation column moved just enough to let some vapours out, the caught alight from the bunsen and there was a large fireball yarr and some broken glass.
There was some ethanol on the roof (about 1.5M) above the bench its amazing no one got hurt.
Was always fun to tip the ethanol on the bench and light it up (fire proof bench).
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 22:47
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no stupid. its to stop them interfering with your brainwaves and turning you into a government controlled sheep who walks around spreading lies such as:
- we are running out of petrol
- the conservation of energy laws are true
- Dorio86 is actually bubbles
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 23:51
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the size of un-regulated brewing and distilling vessels is limited by law - i think once you have more than 20 litre of mash brewing/distilling then you need a permit and you will pay tax (exise? spelling?) on the goods made.
Is why the home brewing/distilling shops tend not to have large stills for sale.
Anyway, methanol/ethanol are hardly the best replacements for petrol? they burn with less efficiency, they have higher output of carbon and CO2 than petrol for the same amount of evergy released, they have high costs of production, they have shorter shelf life, are hydroscopic (plus water will separate in petrol but will mix with ethenol/methanol) so they have greater handling and storage costs and requirements, ...
If you want to make a still - focus on making a decent vodka or scotch.
i can help with taste-testing if needed.
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 23:54
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where did you get that info? distilling is illegal. homebrew kits come with 23L kegs and all mixes say to go to 22/23 litres
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sun, 18 September 2005 23:59
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 09:54 |
where did you get that info? distilling is illegal. homebrew kits come with 23L kegs and all mixes say to go to 22/23 litres
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Distilling is not illegal i did it in chemistry at school and it is part of the HSC syllabus to do a prac in it. But yes there is a huge CO2 production in making let alone burning it. 
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 00:05
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distilling for the purpose of consumption is. surely you never actually drank any of it in high school 
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 00:08
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If you are thinking of large scale distilling then a good place to start would be an old storage type hot water system. These have a large copper water jacket in them that would probably make a great pot. If you're handy with brazing then you could make a nice long copper condensor as well (try and jacket it with something). Voilla - pot still!
As mentioned previously, it's going to take a shitload of time and effort and unless you have a big tank for fermentation, a free source of sugar, abundant space for your still, immunity from prosection (yes distilling is illegal on a largish scale)and some way of removing residual water (like another distillation column and some benzene) then it'll all be in vain.
Biodiesel is probably a better home brewed option (if you're mates with a few fish and chip shop owners). So go get that diesel gemini and start saving the planet!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 00:14
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is syd tobbaconists sell bongs, hash pipes, sadies, scales etc. but we still can legally smoke pot.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 00:33
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 10:05 |
distilling for the purpose of consumption is. surely you never actually drank any of it in high school
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Well ours kinda got used up in the fire but i'm pretty sure others had a drink when the teacher wasn't looking, mind you we are talking about 80% pure alcohol here. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 00:57
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 10:05 |
distilling for the purpose of consumption is. surely you never actually drank any of it in high school
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well, a *smart* person wouldn't drink it. Certain other people just had to see what 1/4 of a shot of pure alcohol tastes like
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 01:00
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 10:14 |
is syd tobbaconists sell bongs, hash pipes, sadies, scales etc. but we still can't legally smoke pot.
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fixed
yup, i get the point - the two dudes that i know have told me that it is legal (in Qld at least) to have a still that has a max capacity of 20 litres of brewing mash (e.g. total volume of the crud you want to distill).
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Location:
sydney,nsw.oz.
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 01:03
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| rn-85 wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 00:01 |
any helpful and informative details would be great so please step on up and share with me your wares.
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1. Get a company car
2. Who cares about the price of Petrol/LPG/Diesel
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 01:43
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| FWDCelica wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 10:33 |
| rn-85 wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 00:01 |
any helpful and informative details would be great so please step on up and share with me your wares.
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1. Get a company car
2. Who cares about the price of Petrol/LPG/Diesel
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I followed this advice. Works for me!!
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 01:58
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I'd follow the advice but i can't so i just catch a train to work 37 bucks a week is a lot less than it'd cost in fuel.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 03:49
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You could probably buy ethanol for less that distilling it yourself.
Some mythbusting:
http://www.ethanolrfa.org/factfic_enperf.html
As far as I can tell, 100% ethanol petrol is a BAD idea. Also, 10% is fine in your current engine. You could go up to 85% without much modification (it would need a computer in the car that could tell what fuel level it was at). Suggar cane is where we get ethanol in australia, and it's a bi-product of the production of suggar. The stuff to make ethanol is currently just thrown away.
Ethanol is not a long term solution to the deminishing natural resources or the growing problem of pullution, it's just a stopgap so that our oil doesn't run out before we're on something more effective.
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 06:59
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Why not just stick a bunch of solar panels on your roof, and hook it up to an electrolysis machine, and use that to make hydrogen, and run your car on that
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 07:22
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running the car directly from the solar panels would be much more efficient.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 07:31
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 17:22 |
running the car directly from the solar panels would be much more efficient.
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Dude have you seen those solar cars? They're crap.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 07:55
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current solar technology will not prduce enough current/voltage to power a car sufficiently, nor will it be able to generate hydrogen fast enough by electrolysis for what an engine will consume..
best alternative so far are the regenerating hybrids, and fuel cells will be the next stage...
electrolysis takes a lot of electrical energy to get the hydrogen (effectively how much you get from burning it in the engine ) ,,, so you can't just hook up an alternator to the electrolysis device to power a motor to power the alternator.... doesn't work like that
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 08:32
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i think you'll find at least in nsw you cant brew anything above 23(ish)% legally. ive got a mate that was busted lol
biodiesel would be your best bet. or get a pushy
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Location:
Kellyville, Sydney
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 09:41
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 17:31 |
| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 17:22 |
running the car directly from the solar panels would be much more efficient.
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Dude have you seen those solar cars? They're crap.
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agreed, but using the little amount of energy they have to produce hydrogen which will burn producing less energy, is even worse.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 12:43
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| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 19:41 |
| Shraka wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 17:31 |
| mynameisrodney wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 17:22 |
running the car directly from the solar panels would be much more efficient.
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Dude have you seen those solar cars? They're crap.
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agreed, but using the little amount of energy they have to produce hydrogen which will burn producing less energy, is even worse.
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That's why you cover your house with solar panels, then make the hydrogen, store it, then put it in your car every night.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Mon, 19 September 2005 13:00
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 22:43 |
That's why you cover your house with solar panels, then make the hydrogen, store it, then put it in your car every night.
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LOL.. if only it were that easy...
the main reason H2 isn't used yet is STORAGE.... it doesn't liquify, leaks thru almost everything (even metal), and is highly flammable in an enclosed space!!!
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 04:52
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Are you sure it leaks through metal?
I always thought storage was the main problem. Plus corrosion of the exhaust system etc.
What about storing it using this then:
http://www.amminex.com/index_files/Page344.htm
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 05:42
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Why don't you just store it as water in the fuel tank, then split the H2 off the O when you need the hydrogen?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 06:42
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How about roof and bonnet solar panels on a hybrid?
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 06:55
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So we already have a nice heavy electric motor and batteries, lets add some more weight with some solar panels and even more cost. Yeah its a good idea but not financially viable would you be willing to pay like $60K for a car the size of the pulsar thats slower than one for the sake of maybe an improvement in fuel economy of 3L per 100kms.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 06:56
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| Shraka wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 15:42 |
Why don't you just store it as water in the fuel tank, then split the H2 off the O when you need the hydrogen?
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Because electrolysis is a very slow and energy sapping process so you'd end up creating less energy burning the hydrogen than you have in splitting the Hydrogen from the water molecules
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 07:09
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| trevtrev wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 16:42 |
How about roof and bonnet solar panels on a hybrid?
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But if you park your car under a tree, all it takes is a flock of roosting pigeons and your fucked!
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 07:37
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id like to see a company create a performance fully electric engine, it would be possible and would more resemble a rotary engine - small low torque, with very high rev range,
energy should be put into the car's batteries each 24hrs and can be supplied by the government through the mains,
i dont think it should be upto the citizens to provide the alternative energy source (from coal),
however there are a number of viable solutions including solar, wind, hydro and geothermal to name a few.
the government is currently getting some of its power for the grid from these 'green' resources, they need to invest more money into these systems before they can take over large scale energy production.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 08:00
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I think there should be a govornment incentive to fit solar panels to your house, and a bigger one to fit them to a house you're building. If we could have a few solar panels on each persons roof it'd do all sorts of awesome things for our impact on our environemnt.
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 08:05
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solar is great, its cheap to run, but very expensive to set up
nuclear power?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Tue, 20 September 2005 08:14
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| Paranoid Android wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 18:05 |
solar is great, its cheap to run, but very expensive to set up
nuclear power?
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Heh heh. As long as nobody decides to see how hot it'll get!! Crazy Nucular power plant people!
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 01:31
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| Quote: |
the main reason H2 isn't used yet is STORAGE.... it doesn't liquify, leaks thru almost everything (even metal), and is highly flammable in an enclosed space!!!
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H2 does liquify, anything does
also is is able to be stored in metal or glass, usually if its under pressure it is a glass lined metal canister, with heaps of insulation because under pressure it gets very cold
cold is good for a combustion engine, as there is more expansion of product gases
the highly flammable aspect of H2 is why it makes an excellent fuel, but then again.... hindenburg 
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 01:42
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| Shraka wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 18:00 |
I think there should be a govornment incentive to fit solar panels to your house, and a bigger one to fit them to a house you're building. If we could have a few solar panels on each persons roof it'd do all sorts of awesome things for our impact on our environemnt.
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There is, you can also sell any excess power back to the grid as well.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 02:11
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So all this talk of hyrogen fuel... how's it compare to petrol? How different would your engine have to be? Or would you just have to get a new ECU, and fuel system?
Also, what kind of bi-products would a hydrogen fuel have? What exhaust gasses are we talking here?
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 02:27
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| Shraka wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 12:11 |
So all this talk of hyrogen fuel... how's it compare to petrol? How different would your engine have to be? Or would you just have to get a new ECU, and fuel system?
Also, what kind of bi-products would a hydrogen fuel have? What exhaust gasses are we talking here?
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Well to burn hydrogen it will be in the presence of oxygen so it's a good assumption the only thing made is water, hence fuel cell cars being so popular in terms of future technology.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 04:03
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Exhaust would be water from memory? Someone can clarify, but basically the hydrogen and oxygen mix and the by product is water.
I have also looked into a water powerred car (Taking the Hydrgen out of it) But the electrical power needed to do this would make it a complete waste. ie. power produced < power required.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 04:04
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| Sigmeister wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 14:03 |
Exhaust would be water from memory? Someone can clarify, but basically the hydrogen and oxygen mix and the by product is water.
I have also looked into a water powerred car (Taking the Hydrgen out of it) But the electrical power needed to do this would make it a complete waste. ie. power produced < power required.
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I already stated that the only emission would be water.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 04:44
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 13:34 |
| Sigmeister wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 14:03 |
Exhaust would be water from memory? Someone can clarify, but basically the hydrogen and oxygen mix and the by product is water.
I have also looked into a water powerred car (Taking the Hydrgen out of it) But the electrical power needed to do this would make it a complete waste. ie. power produced < power required.
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I already stated that the only emission would be water.
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Appologies, for some reason I had you on ignore?!? And didn't see your response.
you are no longer ignored
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 06:05
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| Paranoid Android wrote on Thu, 22 September 2005 11:31 |
| Quote: |
the main reason H2 isn't used yet is STORAGE.... it doesn't liquify, leaks thru almost everything (even metal), and is highly flammable in an enclosed space!!!
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H2 does liquify, anything does
also is is able to be stored in metal or glass, usually if its under pressure it is a glass lined metal canister, with heaps of insulation because under pressure it gets very cold
cold is good for a combustion engine, as there is more expansion of product gases
the highly flammable aspect of H2 is why it makes an excellent fuel, but then again.... hindenburg
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sure it liquifies... the boiling temperature of hydrogen is 20K ie, -253 celcius. (helium is at 4K = -269C, and is capable of freezing hydrogen (at 15K?)
hydrogen can also exist in a metallic state (so they say) at a pressure of 2.8Mbar.. thats 2.8 MILLION atmospheres of pressure.
there is a big difference between talking about storing H2 AT temperature (ie 20K above asolute zero) and containing it as a gas under pressure at room temp...
H2 does difuse through metal, and readily diffuses through glass and plastic. joints in piping are the bigest problem, with metal on metal seals the most reliable way (since it diffuses through O-rings )
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Thu, 22 September 2005 06:48
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| Paranoid Android wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 15:37 |
id like to see a company create a performance fully electric engine, it would be possible and would more resemble a rotary engine - small low torque, with very high rev range.
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The Venturi Fetish is an electric supercar, so you can get cars like that. If all you want is a drop in electric motor, there are tonnes that would fit the bill. The problem (as I understand it) is battery technology. Batteries are big and heavy, totally ruining your vehicle power-to-weight. You could go out today and purchase a small, light electric motor to fit in place of your existing engine, but you'd have some problems powering it.
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Location:
Melb
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: how to make methanol / ethanol and still
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Sat, 24 September 2005 22:50
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| Paranoid Android wrote on Tue, 20 September 2005 18:05 |
solar is great, its cheap to run, but very expensive to set up
nuclear power?
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im striping a smoke detector as we speak!
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